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Subject: SecDef Gates recommends halting F-22 and POTUS Helo production
DarthAmerica    4/6/2009 3:53:07 PM
h*tp://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D97D4QTO1&show_article=1 Apr 6 02:44 PM US/Eastern By ANNE GEARAN AP Military Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - Defense Secretary Robert Gates on Monday recommended halting production of the F-22 fighter jet and scrapping a new helicopter for the president as he outlined deep cuts to many of the military's biggest weapons programs. Gates said his $534 billion budget proposal represents a "fundamental overhaul" in defense acquisition and reflects a shift in priorities from fighting conventional wars to the newer threats U.S. forces face from insurgents in places such as Afghanistan. The department must ensure it has the right programs and money to "fight the wars we are in today and the scenarios we are most likely to face in the years to come, while at the same time providing a hedge against other risks," Gates said as he revealed details of his budget for the next fiscal year. The promised emphasis on budget paring is a reversal from the Bush years, which included a doubling of the Pentagon's spending since 2001. Spending on tanks, fighter planes, ships, missiles and other weapons accounted for about a third of all defense spending last year. But Gates noted more money will be needed in areas such as personnel as the Army and Marines expand the size of their forces. Gates will likely face stiff resistance in Congress, where lawmakers are wary of losing defense contractor jobs with an economy in crisis. Some defense contractors such as Lockheed Martin Corp. have warned of huge layoffs if programs are cut. Production of the F-22 fighter jet, which cost $140 million apiece, would be halted at 187. Plans to build a new helicopter for the president and a helicopter to rescue downed pilots would be canceled. A new communications satellite would be scrapped and the program for a new Air Force transport plane would be ended. Some of the Pentagon's most expensive programs would also be scaled back. The Army's $160 billion Future Combat Systems modernization program would lose its armored vehicles. Plans to build a shield to defend against missile attacks by rogue states would also be scaled back. Yet some programs would grow. Gates proposed speeding up production of the F-35 fighter jet, which could end up costing $1 trillion to manufacture and maintain 2,443 planes. The military would buy more speedy ships that can operate close in to land. And more money would be spent outfitting special forces troops that can hunt down insurgents. "It is important to remember that every defense dollar spent to over-ensure against a remote or diminishing risk?or in effect to run up the score in a capability where the United States is already dominant?is a dollar not available to take care of our people, reset the force, win the wars we are in and improve capabilities in areas where we are underinvested and potentially vulnerable," Gates said. The Government Accountability Office reported last week that 96 of the Pentagon's biggest weapons contracts were over budget by a "staggering" figure of $296 billion. A bill in Congress would require the Pentagon to do a better job of making sure proposed weapons are affordable and perform the way they should before the military spends big sums on them. The Defense Department has already adjusted its acquisitions policy to achieve some of those goals. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm already bracing myself for the comments to follow... -DA
 
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DarthAmerica       4/14/2009 7:28:24 PM

Last year I supported my boys from Bragg at a SOCOM combined arms exercise out in Nevada.  It was huge, with a lot of high speed low drag guys from the US, UK ans OZ running around the desert running scenarios and developing techniques specifically with regards to getting the best out of the latest developing technologies.  Interestingly this exercise was on the huge range complex attached to Creech AFB which is where the US and UK control the "Various" UAV missions underway around the world.  The interesting thing is that we were not required for all the scenarious being played out and at a certain time each evening every single one of us had to be verified as being off the range.  As we all discussed why this might be required the Captain in command of the battery turned to me and said "Arty (Obviously he said my name), theres things in them thar hills that we cant even imagine at this moment in time"   So I totally agree with Darth that there are Aircraft etc in the Black World right now that we probably wont know about for 10 or 15 years!!!!!

Regards

Arty




I love to speculate on some of the possibilities. I remember when I'd be at Balad, sometimes I'd see a strange turbo prop with bulges in conspicuous places or the occasional weird looking UAV. Of course there is always the sightings of civilian contractors from various defense contractors there to service new equipment as well. You just never know whats going on unless you need to. You meet all kinds of strange and interesting people in places like that. I'm in awe at the things I do know about so I can imagine the stuff I don't know being pretty incredible.

-DA 

 
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ArtyEngineer       4/14/2009 7:43:00 PM
 
I love to speculate on some of the possibilities. I remember when I'd be at Balad, sometimes I'd see a strange turbo prop with bulges in conspicuous places or the occasional weird looking UAV. Of course there is always the sightings of civilian contractors from various defense contractors there to service new equipment as well. You just never know whats going on unless you need to. You meet all kinds of strange and interesting people in places like that. I'm in awe at the things I do know about so I can imagine the stuff I don't know being pretty incredible.



-DA 



Absolutely!!!  I have been very lucky over teh last few years with the regards to "Where I have worked" and "Who I have worked with" ;)   Strange and Interesting people is understatement of the the year!!!!!  Heck, at the end of the Nevada Ex we hit Vegas with a few of the High Speed Low Drag folks....thats an awesome bunch of folks to hang out with :)
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica    LB Reply   4/14/2009 7:47:44 PM

It's worth pointing out that according to this article the decision to only buy 187 is entirely budget driven with no analysis to back up the numbers.  Point one is that the USAF is taking another look at some scenarios which is simply a statement that additional analysis is going to be done.  Point two is that 60 more would cost 13 billion and that is a lot of money.


LB, they have already looked at the scenarios. Thats why they are making the decision. They would not do this if it could be shown that U.S. Air Superiority would be in danger by 60 less Raptors. That's why I often ask people to take looks at the threat air forces. Exclude the PRC vs Taiwan scenarios. Who's got an airforce capable of standing against the USAF or even USN for that matter? Now look at the PRC. Just be sure to research the logistics as well as total numbers of threat air craft so you can get a rough idea of how many planes they can support and coordinate in a given battlespace. It becomes clear that while they are making improvements in their capabilities. It's still well short of what it would take to deny the USAF air superiority. That's why they are seeking asymmetric means to negate the Raptors all together if it comes to that in the near term. As it stands now and for the next decade or so, they would take horrific losses in the air that would be a show stopper. I'm looking at their ability to "complete" any operation they start against us. By complete I mean hold on to any initial gains and consolidate thereby forcing us to concede. They can't. Nor can anyone else in a conventional war in the air.

If our national security hinged on those 60 air frames we would have a lot bigger issues. 

-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica    LB Reply   4/14/2009 8:06:12 PM


 

I love to speculate on some of the possibilities. I remember when I'd be at Balad, sometimes I'd see a strange turbo prop with bulges in conspicuous places or the occasional weird looking UAV. Of course there is always the sightings of civilian contractors from various defense contractors there to service new equipment as well. You just never know whats going on unless you need to. You meet all kinds of strange and interesting people in places like that. I'm in awe at the things I do know about so I can imagine the stuff I don't know being pretty incredible.



Absolutely!!!  I have been very lucky over teh last few years with the regards to "Where I have worked" and "Who I have worked with" ;)   Strange and Interesting people is understatement of the the year!!!!!  Heck, at the end of the Nevada Ex we hit Vegas with a few of the High Speed Low Drag folks....thats an awesome bunch of folks to hang out with :)

 

I'm lucky because of the nature of my last mission we weren't really fixed to specific locations in country(s). I got to travel around quite a bit and because of that I was fortunate to see the vastness of the operation and deal with many different types of unit and other services. Also, on one occasion I was the unit LNO which facilitated even more movement and meetings. 

Another thing, when you are part of the main effort, as I'm sure you know when assigning priority of fires, the resources you get are near limitless! I casually asked for a G-Hawk sortie just to see how higher would react to it. We got it...eventually;)! Not to mention almost constant dealings with people and NET teams because of that. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to sound as though we were some hi speed low drag SOF group. But it sure beat getting stuck on some FOB as base security!

-DA 


 


 
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Herald12345       4/14/2009 10:15:57 PM

The peer  review process is rather brutal and not for the timid to enter into unless they have the stomach for it. There is no room for mere unsubstantiations, evidenceless assertions, or for incompetent presentations of fact. The case must be tight.

 

The report I had to write with a presentation that was reviewed for graduation did not give me an impression of being brutal. It's not like they bite your head off. As a matter of fact being judged by your facts is rather refreshing in a world where you are constantly judged on political reasons.


 

Did you stand your orals or was it all written?
 
Herald
 
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Herald12345    Is that so?   4/14/2009 10:18:33 PM




The peer  review process is rather brutal and not for the timid to enter into unless they have the stomach for it. There is no room for mere unsubstantiations, evidenceless assertions, or for incompetent presentations of fact. The case must be tight.



 



The report I had to write with a presentation that was reviewed for graduation did not give me an impression of being brutal. It's not like they bite your head off. As a matter of fact being judged by your facts is rather refreshing in a world where you are constantly judged on political reasons.






 




 

Agreed. It's not brutal. Its designed to help not hinder. I've been involved in two within the last 6 weeks. If someone sees something that doesn't seem correct, the issue is raised, discussed in detail with the various subject matter experts, action items and responsibilities are delegated and then the issues get resolved per the revised program schedule. At no time does it digress into anything "personal".  I'm managing 4 programs now and this is a uniform experience.




-DA 






I seriously doubt you've ever stood one.
 
Herald
 
 
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Herald12345       4/14/2009 10:25:55 PM
Last year I supported my boys from Bragg at a SOCOM combined arms exercise out in Nevada.  It was huge, with a lot of high speed low drag guys from the US, UK ans OZ running around the desert running scenarios and developing techniques specifically with regards to getting the best out of the latest developing technologies.  Interestingly this exercise was on the huge range complex attached to Creech AFB which is where the US and UK control the "Various" UAV missions underway around the world.  The interesting thing is that we were not required for all the scenarious being played out and at a certain time each evening every single one of us had to be verified as being off the range.  As we all discussed why this might be required the Captain in command of the battery turned to me and said "Arty (Obviously he said my name), theres things in them thar hills that we cant even imagine at this moment in time"   So I totally agree with Darth that there are Aircraft etc in the Black World right now that we probably wont know about for 10 or 15 years!!!!!
 
Regards
 
Arty
 
Secrets held, or range safety? Computers are stupid. Let me say that again, computers are stupid:.a live weapon proof with a prototype bombing robot is extremely dangerous. 
 
Herald 
 
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gf0012-aust       4/14/2009 10:41:15 PM
It was huge, with a lot of high speed low drag guys from the US, UK ans OZ running around the desert running scenarios and developing techniques specifically with regards to getting the best out of the latest developing technologies. 

if you still make that tour to oz we should catch up and have a quiet one.  there are some interesting technology timelines that are in play. 2014-15 will be interesting. :)

 
 
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ArtyEngineer    GF   4/14/2009 10:46:25 PM


It was huge, with a lot of high speed low drag guys from the US, UK ans OZ running around the desert running scenarios and developing techniques specifically with regards to getting the best out of the latest developing technologies. 




if you still make that tour to oz we should catch up and have a quiet one.  there are some interesting technology timelines that are in play. 2014-15 will be interesting. :)




 



Its still on, has slid to the right a little, looking like October at the minute.
 
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gf0012-aust       4/14/2009 11:18:36 PM

It's still on, has slid to the right a little, looking like October at the minute.
 
email me at work when it gets closer and I'll sort something out



 
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