Don't forget that whilst the F-4D was known as the "Double Ugly", the F-4C was the original "Ugly". I think that was due to the nose cone losing it's smooth appearance thanks to the addition of the sensor underneath. May be wrong though.

 

Can't give you a total figure for all global users, however, I counted the Mig kills for all American users of the F-4 in Vietnam and subtracted from total Mig kills in that conflict (the others being Buffs, Scooters, Thuds, Crusader and a Skyraider) and I get 145. Sourced from "Vietnam Air Warfare" by Robert Dorr & Chris Bishop.

 

Gf, do you have a copy of the excellent Soverign Series "Phantom" by Stewart Wilson?

 

It is a great reference.

Gf, do you have a copy of the excellent Soverign Series "Phantom" by Stewart Wilson?

It is a great reference.

 

 

Herald

I saw one flying down (following) the autobahn in southern germany a few years back and it had this glorious gnarly sound as it flashed by

When I was a kid my father would take me at night to the flight line at the air base he served on and we would watch the F4's take off. The purple beauty and sound of the twin after burners blazing away into the night is a image I will never forget. The F4 is by far one of my favorite planes of all time.

 

DropBear you dont be chance have the reverse figures for how many F4's were lost  to Migs over Vietnam?

DropBear you dont be chance have the reverse figures for how many F4's were lost  to Migs over Vietnam?

Not handy, as I would have to do some digging to break down by Mig type.

 

The stat I have at hand states that the F-4 had a kill-to-loss ratio of 3.73 to 1. If they made 145 kills, then you can do the maths to get the reverse.

 

Just out of interest, I do have total losses of F-4's during Nam broken down by year for the services.

 

1965  USAF 12  USN/USMC  11

1966             42                        25

1967             81                        34

1968             57                        32

1969             57                        14

1970             26                          9

1971             24                          1

1972             70                        18

1973               1                          2

Total             370                      146

 

The 516 Phantoms lost to combat/operational use accounted for 20.1% of total fixed-wing aircraft.

 

The USAF lost 190 of 370 over North Vietnam, 71 in the South and 109 over Laos.

 

The USN/USMC lost 74 North, 58 South and 14 over Laos of their 146.

 

 

According to Vietnam War Air Losses, 51 F-4s were lost to MiGs over Vietnam.  The next highest loss rate is F-105s (23 were lost to MiGs).  There were simply more dogfights between F-4s and MiGs, and the Thud was pretty much gone by the huge air battles of Linebacker.  F-8s by far had the best kill ratio of the war.

 

The ACIG list has some inaccuracies, but is pretty accurate.  Vietnamese records are not to be trusted.  If one MiG pilot scored a kill, credit was awarded to his entire flight, which is why Nguyen Van Bay is usually listed as the top MiG-17 ace, when he probably only scored 2 1/2 kills. ACIG also lists two F-4 MiG kills where the MiG-17 pilot was able to return to base.