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Subject: The P-40 Thread
RockyMTNClimber    3/11/2009 12:41:01 PM
From time to time old US fighters get mentioned on these boards and I am suprised at how little respect the P-40 Kittyhawk/Warhawk, Tomahawk gets given the sterling accomplishments the aircraft achieved in the hands of Allied pilots during WWII. When the war started in 1941 there were two primary modern US types. The Army's Curtis P-40 and the Navy's Grumman F4F Wildcat. These aircraft both shared the American penchant for aircraft of rugged construction, heavy armament, and pilot protection. The P-40 featured a supercharged Allison 1170 hp, liquid cooled V12 engine with a critical altitude of 15,000 feet msl (critical altitude is the elevation at which the engine's supercharger will produce sea level manifold pressure). It's advantages over its adversaries were as follows: P-40 v. A6M Zeke/Zero, P-40 was faster in level flight than any of the contemporary A6M's. it had a maximum dive speed of 480mph v. the Zeke's 350mph. The typical load out of armament for a P-40 was 6 .50 caliber heavy machine guns; the Zeke/Zero had two rifle caliber machine guns in the nose that were suplimented by two short barrelled 20mm cannon. The P-40 had pit armor and self sealing tanks where the Zero was utterly un armored and caught fire with a single hit from a tracer bullet, even a rifle caliber bullet! The P-40 had superior roll and turning rates at any speed above 250mph. As long as the P-40 pilot stayed above 250 mph the Zero could not turn or roll with it! Another critical advantage for the P-40 was its ability to withdraw from a fight by diving away. Litterally, the allied pilot could choose the time and place to engage and disengage. P-40 v. BF-109; The P-40 had superior dive speed, again allowing the allied pilot to disengage or fight at his choosing. It also could turn inside of the 109 and arguably the US six .50 guns were a better choice for air to air combat. The ultimate proof is that allied pilots scored consistently better kill ratios against their enemies. This is true whether you are talking about allied pilots fighting A6M or the BF-109 or other types. This is also true when you discuss veteran enemy pilots against allied rookies. Simply put the P-40 was a great aircraft that allowed allied pilots to win early and win often. It was later overshadowed by better allied aircraft and that is okay too, but give the girl her due. Check Six Rocky
 
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HERALD1357    More data.   3/15/2009 5:45:14 PM
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Senty reply,   3/15/2009 6:25:15 PM
Sentinenal28a. Your source is incomplete.Let me start with a post from  a Alison web site:
ht***tp://www.aviation-history.com/engines/allison.htm
The few turbo-supercharged Allisons that were made, were allocated to P-38s..., making the high-altitude performance of that plane its best feature. All 14,000 P-40s got gear-driven superchargers, and as a result, were never first-class fighter planes. Donaldson R. Berlin, the P-40's ...designer, has said that P-40s ...experimentally equipped with turbo-superchargers outperformed Spitfires ...and Messerschmitts ...and that if it had been given the engine it was designed for, the P-40 ...would have been the greatest fighter of its era. This may be to some extent the bias of a proud parent, but there is no doubt that the deletion of the turbo-supercharger ruined the P-39 ....
 
Next: I will refer you to copies of the Allison P40B/C power charts complete with supercharger blower and gear compression ratios:
htt***p://www.raafwarbirds.org.au/targetvraaf/p40_archive/pdfs/1710-33.pdf
 
Note the supercharger type and actual performance data.
 
This isn't your fault that you don't understand this since many most sources get this wrong. I have it right, and I have proved it. Please confirm you understand the documents as all that engine data can get technical.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    More Allison history (if a copy of the Tomahawk's Pilot manual doesn't convince you about its SINGLE STAGE SUPERCHARGER:   3/15/2009 6:37:06 PM
 
htt***p://www.outlawpulling.com/PDF/Allison%20Aircraft%20Engine.pdf
The Army had earlier decided to concentrate on turbosuperchargers for high altitude boost, believing that further development of mechanical turbochargers would allow their engines to outperform European rivals using superchargers. Turbosuperchargers are powered by the engine exhaust and so do not draw power from the engine, whereas superchargers are connected directly by gears to the engine crankshaft. Superchargers as a result require increasing proportions of engine power as altitude increases (the two stage supercharger of the Merlin 60 series engines consumed some 230-280 horsepower at 30,000 ft). General Electric was the sole source for research and production of American turbosuperchargers.Turbosuperchargers were indeed highly successful in U.S. bombers, which were virtually all powered by radial engines. The P-47 fighter had the same combination of radial engine (R-2800) and turbosupercharger and was also quite successful, apart from its large bulk, which was caused by the need for the ductwork for the turbosupercharger.
However, mating the turbosupercharger with the Allison V-1710 proved to be far more problematic. As a result, designers of the fighter planes that utilized the V-1710 were invariably forced to choose between the poor high altitude performance of the V-1710 versus the increased problems brought on by addition of the turbosupercharger. The fates of all of the V-1710 powered fighters of World War II would thus hinge on that choice. The original XP-39 was built with a turbosupercharged V-1710. Numerous changes were made to the design of the production version (after a review by aerodynamicists at Langley Field), including a decision to drop the turbosupercharger. This decision came out of a combination of the severe teething problems encountered with the turbosupercharger mated to the V-1710, as well as the belief of the Army at that time that high altitude performance was not necessary in a fighter plane. The P-39 was thus stuck with poor high altitude performance and proved unsuitable for the air wa r in Western Europe, which was largely conducted at high altitudes. The P-39 was rejected by the British, used briefly by the U.S. in the early Pacific air war, and then was exiled by the USAAF to the Soviet Union under the Lend Lease program. The Soviets were still able to make good use of P-39s because of its excellent maneuverability and because the air war on the Eastern Front in Europe was largely short ranged, tactical, and conducted at lower altitudes. The P-40, which also had only the single stage, single speed supercharger V-1710, would have similar problems with high altitude performance.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Senty question;   3/15/2009 6:59:31 PM
Since the P39 and the P40 have the exact same engine are about the same size weight and wing loading, why is there such a difference in the type's combat records?
 
Answer:  ?
 
 
 
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YelliChink       3/15/2009 9:24:20 PM
Rocky:
 
Russians seem to love P-39 a lot, to the degree that they made contract with Bell to produce P-63. 
 
Herald:
 
I don't know. Inline engines were killed due to jet engines. Otherwise, fighter with inline engines do have higher speed in general. Bearcat is slower than Mustang. The problem with V-1710 is that USAAF never fund a project to develop high performance two-stage, two-speed superchargers, while the turbosupercharger used is optimized to R-2800 and other radial engines. When, later in the war, V-1710 did got two-stage superchargers, it performs only slightly inferior to Merlin despite pretty un-optimized work.
 
What USAAF should have done is to have Plan B funded for two-stage superchargers just in case turbosupercharger fail.
 
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HERALD1357       3/15/2009 10:20:22 PM

Rocky:

 

Russians seem to love P-39 a lot, to the degree that they made contract with Bell to produce P-63. 

Short comment. Each nation develops a "fighting style"  I submit that the P-39 was well suited to the Russians'  tactical air support style because they wanted an aircraft that could not only fight enemy aircraft at low to medium altitude but also provide some "Sturmovik" like support.
 
Herald:

I don't know. Inline engines were killed due to jet engines. Otherwise, fighter with inline engines do have higher speed in general. Bearcat is slower than Mustang. The problem with V-1710 is that USAAF never fund a project to develop high performance two-stage, two-speed superchargers, while the turbosupercharger used is optimized to R-2800 and other radial engines. When, later in the war, V-1710 did got two-stage superchargers, it performs only slightly inferior to Merlin despite pretty un-optimized work.

Engine cooling with a fluid evaporator or a refrigerant cycler as opposed to a direct heat radiator means that you can operate at theoretically higher engine temperatures. The only problem I see with your thesis is that the radials were headed into the same materials and physics revolution we have today where we use forced black-body cooling.for direct radiant cooling. Failing the jet revolution, we would have used our high temperature alloys knowledge to prooduce the radials we needed. Most aviation piston engines today are air cooled boxers. Why?      
 
What USAAF should have done is to have Plan B funded for two-stage superchargers just in case turbosupercharger fail.

The turbosupercharger was a not a wattkiller at the front end, robbing up to 20% of the usable work from the propeller;  like the mechanically driven supercharger. Its drawback was additional heat burden on the whole engine turbocharger assembly.. 
 
 The big problem with the approach was that the US tried something like this with the Hyper engines:program.
 
 Refer here.
 
 
The line of development with the accompanying turbo-charger started late and was complex and troubled. Time ran out.  
Herald
 
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YelliChink       3/15/2009 11:06:12 PM

The turbosupercharger was a not a wattkiller at the front end, robbing up to 20% of the usable work from the propeller;  like the mechanically driven supercharger. Its drawback was additional heat burden on the whole engine turbocharger assembly.. 

Herald

Some interesting stuff:
www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38-wayne.html
 
 [quote]
 As it turned out, exhaust thrust was very important. Approximately one-third of the heat energy produced by a piston engine is available for useful work, the rest is wasted! A well-designed jet (ejector) exhaust system can capture a considerable amount of this energy, and can easily increase rated horsepower by 10 per-cent or more. At 25,000 feet a 400-mph airplane could expect a gain of around 20-25 mph? and it cost almost nothing.
[unquote]

This is the only source about jet ejector. If jet ejector can provide such amount of thrust, then why bother with turbocharger at all?
 
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HERALD1357    Because when the Italians tried it.   3/15/2009 11:18:58 PM



The turbo supercharger was a not a watt killer at the front end, robbing up to 20% of the usable work from the propeller;  like the mechanically driven supercharger. Its drawback was additional heat burden on the whole engine turbocharger assembly.. 



Herald





Some interesting stuff:

www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38-wayne.html

 

 [quote]

 As it turned out, exhaust thrust was very important. Approximately one-third of the heat energy produced by a piston engine is available for useful work, the rest is wasted! A well-designed jet (ejector) exhaust system can capture a considerable amount of this energy, and can easily increase rated horsepower by 10 per-cent or more. At 25,000 feet a 400-mph airplane could expect a gain of around 20-25 mph? and it cost almost nothing.

[unquote]




This is the only source about jet ejector. If jet ejector can provide such amount of thrust, then why bother with turbocharger at all?

It didn't work in the Camproni. Plus Frank Whittle came along......
 
 
 At a certain Vsub3n it becomes DRAG.
 
 
Herald
 
 
 
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sentinel28a       3/16/2009 12:18:30 AM
There was nothing wrong with the P-39's engine--it was that the airframe was too small for everything else done to it, like heavy armament, armor plate, wing guns, etc.  After the Materiel Division was done with it, the P-39 went from being a sporty, unstable little fighter to a dog.
 
I don't have an answer for you on the P-40--I'm just passing on what Perret wrote.
 
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larryjcr    reply to YelliChink   3/16/2009 3:39:35 AM

Rocky:

 

Russians seem to love P-39 a lot, to the degree that they made contract with Bell to produce P-63. 


 

Herald:

 

I don't know. Inline engines were killed due to jet engines. Otherwise, fighter with inline engines do have higher speed in general. Bearcat is slower than Mustang. The problem with V-1710 is that USAAF never fund a project to develop high performance two-stage, two-speed superchargers, while the turbosupercharger used is optimized to R-2800 and other radial engines. When, later in the war, V-1710 did got two-stage superchargers, it performs only slightly inferior to Merlin despite pretty un-optimized work.


 

What USAAF should have done is to have Plan B funded for two-stage superchargers just in case turbosupercharger fail.



Speed comparisons of the P51 and F8F aren't quite so simple.  The F8F was actually equal in speed to the P-51D from sea level to 20k ft.  Only above that height did the Mustang have an advantage.  On the other hand, the Bearcat's rate of climb made the P-51 look sick.  As the two a/c had nearly indentical empty weights, with slightly greater wing area on the Grumman, and both used two-stage, two-speed blowers, it came down to the fact that the Bearcat's intended critical altitude was 19,700 ft and the Mustang's was 25,000.
Similarly, the F4U-1A was half a ton heavier, empty, than a P-51D and had much greater wing area (314 sq. ft. vs 233).  But the Corsair was actually FASTER than the Mustang from sl to 16K ft, and roughly equal in speed to 24K., with superior climb up to 24K and equal climb rate above that and better turn rate and agility (pitch and roll rates) at all atlitudes.  The Marines deliberately tested the two against each other and concluded that the Corsair was a better fighter "UNLESS MOST COMBATS ARE EXPECTED TO OCCUR ABOVE 24 THOUSAND FEET."
Trying to compare different designs for performance involves much more than what type of engine drove them.  The Bearcat and Mustang are about as close as you're likely to get, but even there, too many design decisions were made differently.
 
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