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Subject: The P-40 Thread
RockyMTNClimber    3/11/2009 12:41:01 PM
From time to time old US fighters get mentioned on these boards and I am suprised at how little respect the P-40 Kittyhawk/Warhawk, Tomahawk gets given the sterling accomplishments the aircraft achieved in the hands of Allied pilots during WWII. When the war started in 1941 there were two primary modern US types. The Army's Curtis P-40 and the Navy's Grumman F4F Wildcat. These aircraft both shared the American penchant for aircraft of rugged construction, heavy armament, and pilot protection.

The P-40 featured a supercharged Allison 1170 hp, liquid cooled V12 engine with a critical altitude of 15,000 feet msl (critical altitude is the elevation at which the engine's supercharger will produce sea level manifold pressure). It's advantages over its adversaries were as follows:
P-40 v. A6M Zeke/Zero, P-40 was faster in level flight than any of the contemporary A6M's. it had a maximum dive speed of 480mph v. the Zeke's 350mph. The typical load out of armament for a P-40 was 6 .50 caliber heavy machine guns; the Zeke/Zero had two rifle caliber machine guns in the nose that were suplimented by two short barrelled 20mm cannon. The P-40 had pit armor and self sealing tanks where the Zero was utterly un armored and caught fire with a single hit from a tracer bullet, even a rifle caliber bullet! The P-40 had superior roll and turning rates at any speed above 250mph. As long as the P-40 pilot stayed above 250 mph the Zero could not turn or roll with it! Another critical advantage for the P-40 was its ability to withdraw from a fight by diving away. Litterally, the allied pilot could choose the time and place to engage and disengage.

P-40 v. BF-109; The P-40 had superior dive speed, again allowing the allied pilot to disengage or fight at his choosing. It also could turn inside of the 109 and arguably the US six .50 guns were a better choice for air to air combat.

The ultimate proof is that allied pilots scored consistently better kill ratios against their enemies. This is true whether you are talking about allied pilots fighting A6M or the BF-109 or other types. This is also true when you discuss veteran enemy pilots against allied rookies.

Simply put the P-40 was a great aircraft that allowed allied pilots to win early and win often. It was later overshadowed by better allied aircraft and that is okay too, but give the girl her due.

Check Six

Rocky


 
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HERALD1357       3/15/2009 10:20:22 PM

Rocky:

 

Russians seem to love P-39 a lot, to the degree that they made contract with Bell to produce P-63. 

Short comment. Each nation develops a "fighting style"  I submit that the P-39 was well suited to the Russians'  tactical air support style because they wanted an aircraft that could not only fight enemy aircraft at low to medium altitude but also provide some "Sturmovik" like support.
 
Herald:

I don't know. Inline engines were killed due to jet engines. Otherwise, fighter with inline engines do have higher speed in general. Bearcat is slower than Mustang. The problem with V-1710 is that USAAF never fund a project to develop high performance two-stage, two-speed superchargers, while the turbosupercharger used is optimized to R-2800 and other radial engines. When, later in the war, V-1710 did got two-stage superchargers, it performs only slightly inferior to Merlin despite pretty un-optimized work.

Engine cooling with a fluid evaporator or a refrigerant cycler as opposed to a direct heat radiator means that you can operate at theoretically higher engine temperatures. The only problem I see with your thesis is that the radials were headed into the same materials and physics revolution we have today where we use forced black-body cooling.for direct radiant cooling. Failing the jet revolution, we would have used our high temperature alloys knowledge to prooduce the radials we needed. Most aviation piston engines today are air cooled boxers. Why?      
 
What USAAF should have done is to have Plan B funded for two-stage superchargers just in case turbosupercharger fail.

The turbosupercharger was a not a wattkiller at the front end, robbing up to 20% of the usable work from the propeller;  like the mechanically driven supercharger. Its drawback was additional heat burden on the whole engine turbocharger assembly.. 
 
 The big problem with the approach was that the US tried something like this with the Hyper engines:program.
 
 Refer here.
 
 
The line of development with the accompanying turbo-charger started late and was complex and troubled. Time ran out.  
Herald
 
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YelliChink       3/15/2009 11:06:12 PM

The turbosupercharger was a not a wattkiller at the front end, robbing up to 20% of the usable work from the propeller;  like the mechanically driven supercharger. Its drawback was additional heat burden on the whole engine turbocharger assembly.. 

Herald

Some interesting stuff:
www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38-wayne.html
 
 [quote]
 As it turned out, exhaust thrust was very important. Approximately one-third of the heat energy produced by a piston engine is available for useful work, the rest is wasted! A well-designed jet (ejector) exhaust system can capture a considerable amount of this energy, and can easily increase rated horsepower by 10 per-cent or more. At 25,000 feet a 400-mph airplane could expect a gain of around 20-25 mph? and it cost almost nothing.
[unquote]

This is the only source about jet ejector. If jet ejector can provide such amount of thrust, then why bother with turbocharger at all?
 
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HERALD1357    Because when the Italians tried it.   3/15/2009 11:18:58 PM



The turbo supercharger was a not a watt killer at the front end, robbing up to 20% of the usable work from the propeller;  like the mechanically driven supercharger. Its drawback was additional heat burden on the whole engine turbocharger assembly.. 



Herald





Some interesting stuff:

www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38-wayne.html

 

 [quote]

 As it turned out, exhaust thrust was very important. Approximately one-third of the heat energy produced by a piston engine is available for useful work, the rest is wasted! A well-designed jet (ejector) exhaust system can capture a considerable amount of this energy, and can easily increase rated horsepower by 10 per-cent or more. At 25,000 feet a 400-mph airplane could expect a gain of around 20-25 mph? and it cost almost nothing.

[unquote]




This is the only source about jet ejector. If jet ejector can provide such amount of thrust, then why bother with turbocharger at all?

It didn't work in the Camproni. Plus Frank Whittle came along......
 
 
 At a certain Vsub3n it becomes DRAG.
 
 
Herald
 
 
 
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sentinel28a       3/16/2009 12:18:30 AM
There was nothing wrong with the P-39's engine--it was that the airframe was too small for everything else done to it, like heavy armament, armor plate, wing guns, etc.  After the Materiel Division was done with it, the P-39 went from being a sporty, unstable little fighter to a dog.
 
I don't have an answer for you on the P-40--I'm just passing on what Perret wrote.
 
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larryjcr    reply to YelliChink   3/16/2009 3:39:35 AM

Rocky:

 

Russians seem to love P-39 a lot, to the degree that they made contract with Bell to produce P-63. 


 

Herald:

 

I don't know. Inline engines were killed due to jet engines. Otherwise, fighter with inline engines do have higher speed in general. Bearcat is slower than Mustang. The problem with V-1710 is that USAAF never fund a project to develop high performance two-stage, two-speed superchargers, while the turbosupercharger used is optimized to R-2800 and other radial engines. When, later in the war, V-1710 did got two-stage superchargers, it performs only slightly inferior to Merlin despite pretty un-optimized work.


 

What USAAF should have done is to have Plan B funded for two-stage superchargers just in case turbosupercharger fail.



Speed comparisons of the P51 and F8F aren't quite so simple.  The F8F was actually equal in speed to the P-51D from sea level to 20k ft.  Only above that height did the Mustang have an advantage.  On the other hand, the Bearcat's rate of climb made the P-51 look sick.  As the two a/c had nearly indentical empty weights, with slightly greater wing area on the Grumman, and both used two-stage, two-speed blowers, it came down to the fact that the Bearcat's intended critical altitude was 19,700 ft and the Mustang's was 25,000.
Similarly, the F4U-1A was half a ton heavier, empty, than a P-51D and had much greater wing area (314 sq. ft. vs 233).  But the Corsair was actually FASTER than the Mustang from sl to 16K ft, and roughly equal in speed to 24K., with superior climb up to 24K and equal climb rate above that and better turn rate and agility (pitch and roll rates) at all atlitudes.  The Marines deliberately tested the two against each other and concluded that the Corsair was a better fighter "UNLESS MOST COMBATS ARE EXPECTED TO OCCUR ABOVE 24 THOUSAND FEET."
Trying to compare different designs for performance involves much more than what type of engine drove them.  The Bearcat and Mustang are about as close as you're likely to get, but even there, too many design decisions were made differently.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Sentinal28a reply   3/16/2009 10:23:25 AM
Again, I don't blame you for not having a clear understanding of how the P40 was equiped. Most sources get the subject wrong. It took me two very long posts to explain what a Turbo Charger is and why the Allison's system was satisfactory for it's mission. There is a significant performance difference between having that single stage supercharger that the Allison engine had on it from the beginning and not having any turbo charging at all. Only 2,800 P40's were built with Merlins so the great success of the fighter was the result of the Allison's basic platform.
 
I don't mean to go technicolor on you but I truly have to keep driving the point home so maybe everyone will have a clear view of history.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Ispose    P-39's   3/16/2009 1:02:20 PM
I read somewhere that the P-39's used in the SW pacific were the Lend Lease version intended for the British (P-400's) that were rejected. They had UK type oxygen systems which were incompatible with US system so they were limited to operating below 10K ft anyway...in capable hands they were decent aircraft but with no real way to get above the zeros they were fighting at the bottom of the gravity well and were reacting instead of dictating the terms of the engagement...not an ideal situation.
They gave steller service as air support for the Marines at Guadalcanal however
Brave men
 
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sentinel28a       3/16/2009 4:32:04 PM
No blood, no report, Rocky.  I do find it surprising that a historian like Perret got this wrong, though.  He's usually right.  So I'd still like to find a few more sources on the P-40, but thanks for getting to the bottom of things.
 
No reason to continue to drive the nail home, though.  You made your point. 
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Don't blame the facts....   3/16/2009 4:55:24 PM
I do find it surprising that a historian like Perret got this wrong< Senty
 
Here is why I think it is the case; One, the mistakes about the P40's manuverability and turbo charger are out there already. For what ever reason, a lie can make it around the world before the truth gets it's pants on and that is certainly the case here. Two, it is a difficult concept for historians (not the most technical minded of US) and persons who might just have subject interest to get their mind around. To most it either is supercharged or isn't. In reality there are several layers of gray inbetween and look how long it took me to explain it here. So, rather than venture all the way into the nit-noi nuances of a geared single stage supercharger (which drags b.h.p. off of the engine) to a exhaust bleed driven Multi Stage Intercooled Supercharger, or Turbo-supercharger, or a Ray Jay, people's eyes glaze over pretty fast. The P40 also got a reputation for not being agile, but that was against the A6M and maybe the Oscar and nothing in the planet could turn against those planes. So that really wasn't a good comparison, but it stuck. The story about the P40's limitations never really matched its combat record where P40 pilots cheerfully mowed down their opponents with little notice of how inferior it was. Blood on the sword is the ultimate arbitrator of usefulness in a weapon.
 
"find the enemy and shoot him down. All else is nonsense" - Baron Von Rictofen
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
 
 
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YelliChink       3/16/2009 5:13:12 PM

It didn't work in the Camproni. Plus Frank Whittle came along......


 At a certain Vsub3n it becomes DRAG.

Herald


Wait, I got confused here. I thought Caproni-Camproni was a motorjet, which was also tried on some Soviet test plane. Jet ejectors are seen on Spitfire as well as Mustang as the way they align the exhuast pipes.
 
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HERALD1357    The thrust versus drag problem was similar. Flow pressure DRAG.   3/16/2009 6:20:05 PM



It didn't work in the Camproni. Plus Frank Whittle came along......








 At a certain Vsub3n it becomes DRAG.



Herald








Wait, I got confused here. I thought Caproni-Camproni was a motorjet, which was also tried on some Soviet test plane. Jet ejectors are seen on Spitfire as well as Mustang as the way they align the exhuast pipes.
The gas ejectors work as added thrust with the Spit and the Mustang until you hit around 400 knots then the pressure differential of the gas efflux and the slipstream over the the fuselage sets up a drag condition on the fuselage.

Shrug. Its a vacuum drag effect. In the motorjet it shows up INSIDE the motorjet around the piston engine! 
 
Herald
 

 
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YelliChink       3/16/2009 6:55:27 PM


The gas ejectors work as added thrust with the Spit and the Mustang until you hit around 400 knots then the pressure differential of the gas efflux and the slipstream over the the fuselage sets up a drag condition on the fuselage.

Shrug. Its a vacuum drag effect. In the motorjet it shows up INSIDE the motorjet around the piston engine! 

Herald

Thanks Herald. As I can recalled, only heavily modified Bearcat and MiG I-250 ever breached 400kt barrier of piston-driven fighters in level flight. While the Bearcat record is done in 1989 with probably new technology and specialized fuel, I-250 record was carried out with stripped down prototype.
 
As far as I can also recalled, the development of turbosupercharger on R-2800 and the steady increase of power from that power plant was quite smooth. What would you do if you are in charge of a fighter design team for a USAAF bomber escort in European theater?
 
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earlm       3/16/2009 7:48:17 PM





The gas ejectors work as added thrust with the Spit and the Mustang until you hit around 400 knots then the pressure differential of the gas efflux and the slipstream over the the fuselage sets up a drag condition on the fuselage.



Shrug. Its a vacuum drag effect. In the motorjet it shows up INSIDE the motorjet around the piston engine! 




Herald






Thanks Herald. As I can recalled, only heavily modified Bearcat and MiG I-250 ever breached 400kt barrier of piston-driven fighters in level flight. While the Bearcat record is done in 1989 with probably new technology and specialized fuel, I-250 record was carried out with stripped down prototype.

 

As far as I can also recalled, the development of turbosupercharger on R-2800 and the steady increase of power from that power plant was quite smooth. What would you do if you are in charge of a fighter design team for a USAAF bomber escort in European theater?

P-47N as is.
 
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HERALD1357       3/17/2009 10:41:17 AM

The gas ejectors work as added thrust with the Spit and the Mustang until you hit around 400 knots then the pressure differential of the gas efflux and the slipstream over the the fuselage sets up a drag condition on the fuselage.




Shrug. Its a vacuum drag effect. In the motorjet it shows up INSIDE the motorjet around the piston engine! 

Herald

Thanks Herald. As I can recalled, only heavily modified Bearcat and MiG I-250 ever breached 400kt barrier of piston-driven fighters in level flight. While the Bearcat record is done in 1989 with probably new technology and specialized fuel, I-250 record was carried out with stripped down prototype.

As far as I can also recalled, the development of turbosupercharger on R-2800 and the steady increase of power from that power plant was quite smooth. What would you do if you are in charge of a fighter design team for a USAAF bomber escort in European theater?

P-47N as is.

Depends on the year and what I can license or steal from foreign technology..

If I start with the 1935 period I have four proven engine sources (Continental, Pratt and Whitney; Wright, and Allison) and SEVEN lines of airframe development. I have Curtis, Seversky, Grumman, Douglas, Boeing and the newcomers Lockheed and North American (North American Fokker. originally)

Based on what I've seen out of Curtis in the mid thirties, I fund one airframe line out of them, I fund one line out of Seversky, I fund one line out of Grumman. I find one out of Lockheed. The others have to take their chances and compete..

I ask for the following from the four engine manufacturers.

A corncob radial 1/1/1 or a 1 HP/1 cu. in./1 pound as measured in those days for an engine rated at MSL at 1500 HP takeoff and no less than 1000 HP cruise at 20,000 feet service ceiling. The whole engine with whatever boost addons NTE 1850 pounds total weight in a single pull package with a MTBT of not less than 100 hours.

An in-line conforms to the same specs.

That more or less could give me three row corncob Cyclones or Wasps, a possible P&W R-2060 Yellow Jacket and an Allison or a Teledyne Continental 0-1460 with GE turbo-chargers;. Assuming that any of it works, and that is a tall assumption, I now have my fighter and bomber engines. I hope I get at least two successful lines of them, because if I'm stuck with just an Americanized Merlin or an Allison to the design specs, I'm in trouble. Engine bottleneck.

For the sake of simplicity, let's suggest that a Pratt and Whitney develops the R-2060 Yellow Jacket and at the same time, produces a Wasp Junior corncob to specs.

I now have two radial engines, one that weighs 1800 pounds (the corncob)or thereabouts and one that weighs 2200 pounds.{the liquid cooled radial Yellow Jacket). Both engines are approximately 55 inches in diameter and both if they are to take a turbocharger will have to have to take twin turbochargers mounted at the engine sides and ram feed. My engine cowling becomes a pronounced oval. DRAG.

I am now forced to laminar flow the fuselage wing design. Expensive.

If the Allison is turbocharged to the design specs I get a 2200 pound engine and turbo-charger package. HMMMMM. This starts sounding like the P-38 twin engine fighter as I need a lot of fuel for a long range fighter.

As for the P&W engines described I'm thinking something like this:
 
 
Its a potential Lockheed design for an aircraft remarkably like the Ju-88 in overall performance and loadout, but based off a canard pusher for pure zoom and boom tactics. The gun armament would be nose mounted in a gun-pack of at least 4x20 mm cannons or 6x 12.7 mm machine guns. Introduction into service about 1939-1940.
That is a bomber escort possible with US technology circa 1937. it has a usable mission radius with 4000 pounds if fuel of about 800 nautical miles with a useful time over target of 15 minutes . Cruise speed is about 200, combat is about 300 knots and service ceiling is optimized around 25,000 feet.
 
You need drop tanks for it, but it will escort a B-17.
 
Why two men? Navigator, plus I want an attack version.
 
 Herald
 
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    P-47N   3/17/2009 10:43:01 AM
Its beyond our tech in 1937. Just possible in 1942.
 
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