Since Herald 's post is off topic (and wrong) , I stop right there with him for now .

 

gf :

""everyone can see that you are a liar and a wannabe.""

 

gf , you 're nothing to me . I now have a good idea on who you are and your pseudo "expertise" comes from paper work .

Your "field" experience is nil . Furthermore , if you think that you are up to date with what we do , you are mistaking and grossly . I sometimes have better "inside" than you have , sorry to say .

 

 

 

Let's not lose our tempers guys. We are all allies, very fond of our favourite aircraft, I'm sure there's room for a serene discussion and maybe even a dose of objectivity.

 

 Preliminary remark: efficiency = performance x usability. The second term relies a lot on man-system interface. Perfomance based on pure technology does a lot but doesn't do it all, you still need to build smartness into the system.

voice recognition (...) touch screen technology (...) integrated "match-stick" to switch from screen to screen etc (...) HOTAS has been in U.S. aircraft for decades.

Of course, US French and many other aircraft have had HOTAS for decades. Voice recongnition has been tested on Rafale and the technology was quite mature (over 95% recognition rate and quite extensive integration into the prototype at one point) but it was slashed from integration into F2 because considered non essential. Prob true but would have had tremendous added value. HOTAS on Rafale has reached a level never seen before on French acft and we have probably reached the limit, both of room available on the stick & throttle and usability (34 HOTAS switches altogether, with several hundred multiplexed functions!). I don't know the numbers on F22, Typhoon or Grippen: I assume they're close.

 

The true novelty on Rafale is not so muchthe HOTAS but other innovative interfaces which all play their part in reducing workload thereby increasing system efficiency: the "matchsticks" protruding from the "instrument" panel (very few instruments actually there), the touchpad beneath the head level display, the touchscreen lateral displays, which are much more potent and flexible than more conventional MFDs surrounded by pushbuttons (F-18/F-22/Typhoon/M2000-5/-9 style) and allow to do without the one (F-18) or several (Typhoon) keypads found in more conventional interfaces. Probably the most unique item is the wide FOV, collimated to infinity, stereoscopic  Head level display. Triple advantage: thanks to the WFOV and stereoscopy the pilot can cope with much more info than he would on a conventional flat screen; a single display for all tactical info (goes with sensor fusion) and the collimation avoids the need for accomodation of eyesight when succesively looking inside the cockpit and outside.

 

 

""Finally, as far as "FrNavy and FAF never meeting anything like SPECTRA", the M2000-9 already have a system that even Thales states is better than Spectra.""

I agree the babbling doesn't sound very convincing, for lack of technical accuracy. It's not entirely nonsense, nevertheless. I presume the "net concentric circle" was an awkward description of two distinct items, Link 16 integration (others have it too) and data fusion (all tracks from the radar, SPECTRA - not only from the RF but also laser and plume tracks -, OSF - TV and IR channels, Link 16 are blended into one unique "system track", which serves not only for display purposes but is actually the source of data fed to the entire system, fire control systems included). I don't know how well that works on other aircraft but it's awesome on Rafale.

 

RWR, laser and missile plume detection as well as jamming are 360° on Rafale, at least in the horizontal plane.

 

BW, I certainly wouldn't support the claim that no missile is ever going to reach a Rafale: every armour, including SPECTRA, has its default, let's not be overconfident. Pretty good kit nevertheless.

 

The development of the Mirage 2000-5 family started about the same time as the Rafale and went faster because it was a more limited mod on an existing patform, than the full development of the Rafale. For that reason, there was a lot of to and fro between the two developments. Sometimes, concepts debuted on Rafale, matured on Mirage 2000-5 and worked their way back to the Rafale. This was in particular the case with the philosophy behind the MICA multitarget firing plan, which was awkward on F1 but realigned to a great extent with that of the M2000-5 thanks to the feedback from that aircraft's in service introduction. As the same teams were working on SPECTRA and ICMS Mark III there certainly have been exchanges, although I'm not aware which exactly. But I doubt that ICMS Mark III can be altogether "better" than SPECTRA. If that comment from Thales is genuine, it still is only from Thales perspective, i.e. maybe an EW geek's dream toy but not necessarily considered when integrated in the overall weapons system. I doubt that ICMS Mark III has all the capability of SPECTRA (Missile plume detection? Laser track detection? All round RWR and jamming coverage?). Last of all, what SPECTRA are we talking about? We have a SPECTRA NG on Rafale F3 (obsolescence concerns forced a redesign somewhere between F2 and F3, with a lot of technical benefits albeit an undesired ands unexpected financial tag).

Not correct:

 

SEAD: we don't have dedicated SEAD weaponry but thanks to interferometry, rightly stated by BW, SPECTRA does more than defensive stuff and gives 3D positions of ground emitters which is quite reasonably accurate, enough for a soft kill SEAD (small PK based o, the sole coordinates but will scare shit out of SAM operators when falling just a couple of 100m off). And the SPECTRA spot is precise enough to be successfully handed over to an EO system in clear weather (used with OSF during daylight in the TLP exercise, should work the same with Damocles day/night on the F3+ aircraft standard). I don't know if the FAF has given a try at such a concept but given the integration of Link 16 and SPECTRA I know the ground position of EW emitters could be passed on the SEAD armement equipped aircraft through link 16 (the SPECTRA spot is present in the HLD/TAC display and therefore can be designated or passed on to another aircraft .

 

Peace with you. :-)

 

JPB

About half of that is pure moonshine.

 

Herald

Nil content (as usual)

 

As a slight digression from the merits/ flaws of the Rafale. what do people think is required to make the Rafale an export succsess.

 

My two pennith -

 

1 Cost This has to be reduced even if this means little profit made on early export aircraft -once its selling economys of scale will (hopefully) come into play. Also a cost cutting excercise, sell a cheaper less sophisticated aircraft - spectra et al has gotta go. thus giving more appeal to the 3rd world market.

 

2 Weapons  - integrate sidewinder/Asraam  and Amraam (possibly Meteor for selected operators) for Air to Air. Paveway or similar for ground attack .

 

I dont know (nor care) about the merits of French v US weapons. but if it is integrated with the above then the platforms appeal can only increase as they are likely to be employed by prospective customers on there existing aircraft fleet, simplifying logistics and possibly bringing costs down.  Additionally wider availability of the weapons fit and one not subject to the vagaries and whims of the French government can only be a tick in the aircrafts favour.

 

3 Hemet mounted sight - nuff said

 

4 radar ok integration isnt easy but possibly drop in a widely used older set for export to the 3rd world.

 

On that note comments about integrating weapons/pods in hours or days are for the most part fanciful. this has really even in emergenies been achieved and often this has been a less than satisfactory solution even on the simplest of systems.  integrating electronics is not simple even if you have all the required data it can and does take weeks to go through the aircraft systems and produce the system drawings before you even start to install the new wiring you will require. This is a subject i have some experience in.

 

re Voice recognition - I know the Tiffy has it from this thread it appears Rafale doesnt, id expect the F35 to be getting it but can any one tell me any other aircraft with it?.

 

 

 

Sorry forgot to add - those people who are vehemanantly defending youre aircraft  and complaining that others are unjustified in attacking it- you seem to be taking a bit of a hatchet job to the typhoon, so please explain why you feel the typhoon to be  so inferior in Air to Air (especially as this was its Raison D entre.  well skip air to mud as we aare all i think pretty much in agrement that the Typhoon is only just starting A2G qualification.

 

Nil content (as usual)

 

Unfortunately for you I don't repeat things more than five times. The previous SEVEN pages contain the lengthy detailed rebuttals you desire. Reiterating wrong does not make it right. If you want detailed rebuttal content-go back and READ.

 

Herald

 

gf , you 're nothing to me . I now have a good idea on who you are and your pseudo "expertise" comes from paper work .

Your "field" experience is nil . Furthermore , if you think that you are up to date with what we do , you are mistaking and grossly . I sometimes have better "inside" than you have , sorry to say .

Look moron.  you have my spam private email address - contact me and I'll send you my work email address.  You're clueless.

Herald :

""About half of that is pure moonshine.

Bluewings12       3/16/2009 4:30:17 PM

Honest question for you, BW--I'm not intending to flame.  Why hasn't the Rafale had any export success?  I'm quite surprised that Dassault, which usually has a lot of success on the export market, hasn't been able to secure any sales.  I would think Brazil, who desperately needs a replacement for their A-4KUs, and Argentina, whose Super Etendards aren't getting any younger, would be prime territory for the Rafale.

 

I'm also surprised the Rafale got no love from the Gulf Kingdoms or India, both of which needed or need Jaguar replacements.

 

Herald , who do you think JP Bergerac is ?

 

Cheers .

Sentinel :

BW

 

Re my suggestions to impove rafales exportability any opinion