typo error

Rafale is obviously a good plane for french requirements.  those requirements do not appear to have relevance for any other potential buyer at this point in time.  

The world is not anti-french.  They will buy french kit when there is tactical, strategic, political and economic sense to do so.

The French (Dassault) should have stuck with their partners (Eurofighter)and TYPHOON as they originally agreed. But 1%ers (Mitterand) and Gallic pride.left France with the SQUALL.

 

Sarkozy understands this. He has a long struggle on his hands to overcome the de Gaulle burden. 

 

French taxpayers didn't even get that for what they paid.

 

The Mirage 2000-5 isn't that bad an aircraft. Its a very good aircraft. Its old, though, and needs replacement. The RAFALE compared to it is hardly as much an improvement as the SUPER HORNET is to the HORNET. THAT is what galls me-that for a program that cost twice what the SUPER HORNET actually cost over its life to the present, that Dassault has produced such a pierce of underachievement.^1    

 

What is the excuse? ARIANESPACE produced the ARIANE 5-a very good satellite launcher. The M-51 Mer-Sol-Balistique-Stratégique is a great technical achievement. No failures in that rocket so far. 

 

What is the excuse for the RAFALE with this kind of track record?  None.

Herald

 

^1 merde

 

Even from the standpoint of someone who is merely a military enthusiast, it is so obvious that in today's environment of limited military budgets that issues such as risk management and cost containment are paramount. 

 

With all due respect to the French and as much as I appreciate the fine lines of the Rafale, it would be extremely difficult for a country such as Canada to purchase it when one considers such issues as interoperability with allies, familiarity with existing systems, commonality of parts, etc.  It is fine and good to speak of potential and future developments but what is the point when other planes already have proven capabilities and integrated systems.   If Canada were to purchase the Rafale, what is the justification for the added cost and potential risk of integrating existing inventory items such as AIM-9, AIM-120, JDAM, LGBs, Mavericks, and Nitehawk targeting pods? 

 

And when comparing the Rafale to the JSF, it is a virtual nobrainer if one has the budget when one considers the level of systems integration that was designed from the outset for things like a helmet mounted sight, helmet display, AESA, the amazing array of sensors built into the aircraft, stealth,  etc.  It is one thing to bluesky (sic) about potential capabilities, but in the real world practical factors come into play and as others have pointed out one is purchasing an entire system and it is reassuring to know beforehand that the system works.

Why do you lie when you know so much the French stuff ? The RBE2 can track an FA-18 sized object flying at 20.000m at 150 km and the look-down capability is the same .

 

Phaid :

So much has been said since yesterday , I just can 't answer everything ...(sorry)

 

Herald :

""Man machine interface......that is a joke. An obsolete pit by 1980s standards versus 21st Century distributed information""

 

So , you say that the Rafale 's pit is obsolete by 1980s standards ???

What are you smoking again ?

""versus 21st Century distributed information""

 

lol Herald ! Check if the F-22 has voice recognition and touch screen technology , then check how work the right stick on the F-22 , then check the one on Rafale . Does the F-22 Pilot has an integrated "match-stick" used as a PC mouse to switch from screen to screen , weapons to weapons , radar modes to radar modes , change the Autopilot on the fly , etc  ?..

Nope .

Then , the avionic integration is of the same generation on both aircrafts . The "Net Concentric Circle" managed through sensors and ECMs is present on Rafale too . We also have a 360 deg EM/EW coverage and the F3 will also bring the 360 deg IR coverage . But since we have an excellent interferrometry technology coupled with some extremely strong ECM algorythms , it 's not 2moro that a missile will hit a Rafale .



Phaid :

""Finally, as far as "FrNavy and FAF never meeting anything like SPECTRA", the M2000-9 already have a system that even Thales states is better than Spectra.""

 

The ICMS MarkIII capabilities (onboard the M2000-9) has been updated and integrated into the lastest version of SPECTRA (less than a year ago if I remember well) . I 'll look for the official paper and post it there in a short time .

 

""Tell you what, you provide evidence for your assertions about the F-22's MMI being inferior to Rafale's, and I'll provide links about this.  Of course the difference is I actually can.""



Well , let 's see them Phaid ...

 

Phaid :

""A fleet of Block 60s has more-modern systems in every category -- radar, EW, SP jammers, working IRST and FLIR, HMS, and AESA with all of the nice navigation and automatic terrain following features, not to mention integrating every weapon in the U.S. arsenal.  They have greater range and are more surviveable due to their better weapons and sensors in BVR and WVR.  And unlike the Rafale, the Block 60s can do SEAD, OCA, and every form of strike from anti-tank to CAS.""

 

Unusually , you are wrong on almost all calls . To start with , the F-16 with stores is a barndoor and it cannot compete on the RCS factor . Secondly , RBE2 will get a clear lock onto it and will never loose it , wich is not the case for the Blk 60 because the ECMs on the Viper simply can 't compete with SPECTRA . Where and when the F-16 will be shot , the Rafale will go through while killing the opposition if needed . It is as siimple as that . Now , regarding the automatic terrain following , the Rafale is way ahead . While the F-16 is a very old airframe built primarly as a slow to fast A2A platform , the Rafale is the best low flyier around (by miles) and its avionics are superiors when flying low level (which is also true at high altitude) .

Phaid , the F-16 Blk 60 can 't reach Moscow . Rafale can and has been built for , it even has the Nukes to go with .

 

Before to carry on answering your posts , let me tell you one thing Gents :

Many of us are internet fans , some are knowledgeable , some have nothing to do with the military , some have been in the Forces (or still are) , some are Google addicts , some are working in a field and can speak with ease in few subjects , some are just interested and they are reading with interest , others are people in the know .

 

JP Bergerac is obviously one of them . I know it because I recognize the talk . I have been in the French AirForce long enough to "click" on JP . As He said , he 's not an engineerer but who do you think He is ? Anyone of you is a Fighter Pilot who flew on M2000 , Hornet or Rafale ???

 

This is why I said to Him in the first place "maybe you shouldn 't be there" .

The difference is enormous in between what people read on the internet and what the real life is . I can surely talk about Commando Ops because I was in charge and I had Troopers (friends) under my command and I can tell some stories while I can 't speak about others , but I 'm not a Pilot . I know the Rafale well enough and I have some good friends who are sometimes friendly enough to discuss interesting matters .

Just to say to some posters , like Herald , that they 'll better listen and read twice before to respond with useless paper work and bla-bla . Instead , posters should update their mind and think like free men , and not like robots .

 

It is clear to me (and it had always been) that Phaid is the most knowledgeable poster here about the French stuff , Herald , gf , Softwar , and many others are not even in the same League .

Phaid , why do you always talk about the real capabilities of the Rafale while downgrading them ???

Exemple :

""The RBE2 as stated can see an FA-18 sized and shaped object at roughly 100-150 kilometers at 5000 meters altitude clear dry air.""

 

 

Can't keep the players straight poseur 2?

 

Even by faulty Cartesian logic standards you fail.

 

CONTEMPT.

 

Herald

 

I failed nothing and your are in trouble to respond to my post . Everybody can see ...

 

Cheers .

HERALD1357    The Rafale is designed tyo work with HAWKEYE support.   3/12/2009 7:41:28 AM

Herald

Herald , stop beating around the bush with your usual BS .

 

Post something relevant and prove your case or shut up .

Don 't try to loose me into useless details , I am watching . Others are too ...

 

Cheers .

You claimed to be competent and able to pronounce on my abilities.

You opened the barn door on this point of technical merit and now I am attacking it on point. If you want any relevance.

 

a. stop falsifying and making things up.

b. attribute facts correctly.

c. admit your mistakes.

d. and stop trying to "BULL" your way through when you are caught lying. 

ATTEND:

 

Like on the tank issue when it was proved you didn't know the first thing about how tanks even work, you now pretend to know about aircraft function. Just the statements you made about the F-22 and the Rafale show now that you are a liar. Have you ever even been inside a military aircraft aside from a static display, you poseur?

 

"I've been with the French Air Force."  Oh really, liar? Can you proive this?

 

The answer is no. You'd know who invented the side stick controller or the voice recognition driven stores management system interface the Rafale uses. it wasn't the French.

 

Another on point illustration:

 

You might actually know something about radar if you knew QED-which is as PHYSICALLY REAL as the laser mouse I use.  .

 

You also might actually then know enough to know what the difference between a tank droop sensor and a machine gun was, truck driver, or why when I tell you side lobe interference means signal phase interference in the RBE2, that you might actually understand why the RBE2 is a piece of crap. If you knew QED, you'd  why the MICA is a piece of CRAP and why your assertions in general are CRAP. 

Relevant and on topic enough for you?

 

Herald 

 

I am not surprised at all , not a bit , by your garbage .

We 're not about Tanks here Herald so stop hiding . In any case , my knowledge on Tanks goes far beyond yours , never forget that you only are an internet addict and nothing else .

 

I have posted enough stuff on SP to prove that I 've been a long time in the Air Forces and everybody who has been in knows that I 'm real , clown .

 

You just made specific claims that I commented on directly above.. That again proves you are a liar.

btw troll, I've given you more than enough time to try and find someone in the industry in France who can explain what hot and cold imaging is - it's not on google, so you can't cheat.

I'll even give you a hand - ask someone at  SAGEM (not Thales as they don't have a clue).

I'll wait another fortnight and see if we get any closer.

once you do that then you can go and hang your head in shame for crapping on about IR sensing (It's not black and white, positive/negative imaging as you tried to indicate before - so you will have to ask someone who knows)  Once you've done that spend some time at an Ecole and do some research on the physics of the answer (which the French well know)

 

Rafale doesn't have voice commands either.  Oh, it was supposed to, but like many other features it was dropped.  As far as the F-22, yes, all of the combat-critical radar and avionics functions are managed via HOTAS.  Once again, BW simply assumes that because Rafale is the first French aircraft to do something, it is the only aircraft ever to do something.  This is not the case, HOTAS has been in U.S. aircraft for decades.

 

 

Babbling nonsense.   The antenna coverage on the F-22 is huge compared to that on Rafale.  And Rafale's angle-limited, short range defensive EW is no substitute for all-aspect RF stealth.

 

Great, please furnish evidence of this.

 

 

No, every fact I stated there is true.  Falcon Edge IEWS is newer and more modern than SPECTRA.  APG-80 is an in-production and deployed AESA.  Block 60 has working FLIR and HMS.  Block 60 has greater range than Rafale.  Block 60 has a longer range AAM and a WVR missile that can do single-ship HOBS launches.  Block 60 has the ability to carry dedicated SEAD weapons and a far greater range of ordnance types than Rafale.  Etc.  This translates into a more survivable and more flexible aircraft.