Rafale Thread

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Bluewings12 6/12/2009 9:51:05 PM

strat :

""Just reading in Janes today that the two nations above would consider the Rafael. HOWEVER, it would have to have greater radar/targeting for the Meteor (which it doesn't have) and greater thrust, 9tons ( which it doesn't have) Hmmmm???

Time to design a plane that works and can be sold abroad, instead of one that France HAS to buy 'cause it is stuck with it.""

Kuwait did not choose the Rafale , Gripen seems to be the winner .

The UAE are most surely going to buy 60 Rafales , the deal is supposed to be signed during the Le Bourget Airshow next week . France is going to buy back the UAE M2000-9s for a bit less than previously thought . It has to be noted that the UAE will be able to use the newly built French airbase for direct support and maintenance if needed .

The 9 tons thrust Snecma M-88 has been bench tested for years and work as intended and can be installed on export Rafales next year . The actual M-88 ECO is prefectly suiting the FAF and the MN . The UAE are asking for a more powerfull engine for 2 reasons : 1) the weather is hotter than in Europe and the air thinner thus the need for a better breathing engine , 2) they want to reach 30.000ft as fast as possible because they are less than 150nm away from the Iranian border .

It is understandable and they will get what they ask .

Regarding the AESA RBE2 , it is about time that the various posters understand that the radar is fully working and funded , France is buying it in numbers right now and can be implemented on any Rafale . You just have to pay for it .

Also , I am ready to bet $10 , a double cheese burger and a late NVidia video card that the Meteor will be used in operation by the French first .

*****************************

PierreLeGrand said :

""Then its use was extended for the MICA EM to validate remote firing using Link 16, in the case of a MICA IR this wouldn't have been necessary as its seeker range is way greater than that of the laser used in OSF.""

I do not understand the "way greater" ... To me , the LRF has a 30km top range but there is NOTHING on the Net saying that the Mica IR seeker has an aquisition range going beyond 35km and I am talking about LOBL . On the other hand , a stealth IR Mica fired LOBL at 35km will reach its target in between 10 and 40 seconds (head on OR chase aspect) . With a dual band IR imagery impervious to IR flares , the missile is a killer .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Beazz 6/12/2009 11:25:01 PM

BW Says:1) the weather is hotter than in Europe and the air thinner thus the need for a better breathing engine , 2) they want to reach 30.000ft as fast as possible because they are less than 150nm away from the Iranian border .

It is understandable and they will get what they ask .

To that I say what rubbish. I spent the better part of 30 years working and watching aircraft climbout and the last 20 in Florida where in the summer time the heat and humidity is as bad as it gets anywhere on planet earth. I routinely watched civilian airliners of all types leave the lateral limits of my airspace which to the north was 35 miles leaving 13K - 15K in the heat of summer. I watched F15's routinely depart our airport on unrestricted climbs to 15K and never be more then 7 miles latterally from the departure end of the runway when leveling off at said altitude.

But the Rafail needs NEW engines because the ones it has can't get a fighter jet to 30K in a timely manner in 150 miles? say what!!! You have confirmed the rafail is an outright piece of junk dog BW!! No wonder no one wants the thing. Air carrier jets the world over can according to you, outclimb it for Gods sake!! LOL

Beazzz

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 6/14/2009 9:30:30 AM

Beazz :

""BW Says:1) the weather is hotter than in Europe and the air thinner thus the need for a better breathing engine , 2) they want to reach 30.000ft as fast as possible because they are less than 150nm away from the Iranian border .

It is understandable and they will get what they ask .

To that I say what rubbish.""

Beazz , you are mistaking and obviously you do not have a single clue of what you are talking about . What I said is the truth and if you would do a simple research on the Net , you would then agree with me .

""But the Rafail needs NEW engines because the ones it has can't get a fighter jet to 30K in a timely manner in 150 miles? say what!!! You have confirmed the rafail is an outright piece of junk dog BW!! No wonder no one wants the thing. Air carrier jets the world over can according to you, outclimb it for Gods sake!! LOL""

You are outrageously twisting my words to fit you stupid point of view , this is not the way to have a proper debate .

The Rafale has an excellent thrust ratio and is one of the best climbers around (climb rate is in excess of 1.000ft/sec) .

Since you don 't seem to know anything about the Snecma M88 family of engines , here is a little reminder :

""Qualification of the basic Snecma M88-2 was completed in early 1996, with the first production engine delivered at the end of the same year.

The M88-2 has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 8.5, producing 11,250/16,850lb of dry/afterburner thrust (50/75kN). The engine has proved extremely reliable in flight tests to-date, by early May building up 6,200 flight hours on the Rafale, giving a total of 16,400h, including test bench running. "It is now ready for entry into operational service," says Jean Massot, M88 general manager.

Development took place under a fixed (unrevealed) price contract. The engine features state of the art technologies found also in its contemporaries, including single-crystal high-pressure turbine blades, powder metallurgy discs and full authority digital engine controls. Unrestricted operation throughout the flight envelope has been demonstrated, as has "extremely fast throttle response, low observability and multimission flexibility".

Construction is based around 21 modules, interchangeable without the need for recalibration or balancing, along with a number of line replaceable units.

Snecma is developing the M88-2 Stage 4, which has the same thrust as the standard M88-2, but incorporates improvements aimed at extending the service life of the engine and reducing fuel consumption, which Massot says "will also reduce operating costs significantly". Another benefit will be to improve the duration of the low-level penetration missions.

The changes include the introduction of three-dimensional high-pressure (HP) compressor and turbine blades, blisks (one-piece blades and discs) improved thermal coatings on the HP turbine, and advanced cooling channels for the combustion chamber. The Stage 4 development will be ready in early 2001 and the modifications will be retrofitted to the M88-2. It will power the 48 Rafales ordered in the Government's multi-year procurement plan.

A further development, the M88-3, rated at 9.5t thrust, still awaits funding, but has been benchtested on a privately funded demonstrator. "We are proposing the M88-3 to the French government for the future standard of the Rafale in the early 2000s and to prospective export customers", says Massot.

The M88-3 features a new LP compressor with higher mass flow (from 65kg/s in the -2 to 73.4kg/s). A new variable stator vane stage has been introduced, permitting the engine to operate at optimum conditions through a much wider range, reducing part-power-specific fuel consumption and providing more operational flexibility to suit the Rafale's multimission role. The development comes out of Snecma's CENTOR LP compressor research programme and from other exploratory developments carried out by Snecma in recent years. Orders for the M88-2 stand at 42 engines, plus modules and spares, with a further order for 96 units (for the 48 Rafales) expected at the Paris air show.
with the first production engine delivered at the end of the same year.""

Beazz , this is a rather old paper but you now know a bit more . I can also give you more details with this other paper (thanks "Wingman") :

""M88 Developements for Domestic and Export markets:

First the main developement was destined to the domestic market (MN/AdA) with the steps taken by SNECMA from M88-2E1 to M88-2E4.
FROM Standard M88-2 to M88-2E4 developed from <> 1995.

New:

----Three-dimensional high-pressure (HP) compressor.
----Turbine blades.
----Blisks (one-piece blades and discs).
----Improved thermal coatings on the HP turbine.
----Advanced cooling channels for the combustion chamber.

Noticeable technological progresses:

TURBINE BLADE LIFE AUGMENTED BY A FACTOR OF THREE.

BLISKS.

TOLERANCE TO HIGHER TEMPERATURES.

SFC LOWERED BY UP TO 4% COMPARED TO M88-2-Evolution1.

---->

FROM Standard M88-2E4 to M88-3.

New:

----LP compressor.
----Variable stator vane stage.

---->

FROM M88-3 to M88 ECO.

----HP corps.
----Combustion chamber.

---->

M88-3 VS M88 ECO.

Diameter:--------- 790mm 31.1-in VS 700mm 27.56-in.
Length:----------- 3.6 m 12-ft VS 3.5 m 12-ft.
Weight:----------- 985 kg 2,172-lb VS 897 kg 1,978-lb.

Thrust:----------- 89.9 kN 20,250-lb VS 75.5 kN 17,000-lb. ""

Beazz , the actual M88 is an excellent engine and a little technological gem . The Rafale performs very well in extreme hot weather and you can 't compare Florida with the sandbox , you don 't get 50-60 celcius in Miami for most of the day and during 8 months , Sir .

The UAE mostly want to use the Rafale as a primary interceptor and they made it clear . It is the reason why they want 9 or 9.5tons thrust engines and it is understandable . That does not mean that the Rafale is underpowered (?!) but they want even better performances .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Reactive 6/14/2009 12:23:50 PM

Ok so i've just read this from start to finish, my favourite bit was when bluewings cited driving a truck as evidence of his advanced knowledge in this area.

So.. you... y.. you drive a truck?

..guys.. you've been arguing for several years with a trucker, it suddenly makes sense.

wow..

I mean..

I am glad that (unlike france) when it came to the design of (most of) our latest procurements, the UK opted for the opinions of systems analysts, pilots, signals analysts, radar specialists, avionics engineers, and not the endless blathering rubbish emenating from a guy for whom the most complex decision in his professional life that ever needs to be taken is whether to stop for a fuc*ing burger.

So the lesson here is as follows; much as bluewings denegrates the knowledge and professional opinions of all present on this forum when it conflicts with his uninformed, public-domain, elementary understanding of avionics and air-warfare in general, might it be a timely reminder of what you would do "in real life" if a trucker came up with the same sort of things he says?

Might it be that you didn't spend much time in the vicinity arguing with him : )

Otherwise, as I said before, fascinating post, shame about the occasional disagreements between learned members, but again, other than the truckers present, the people who do have operational and professional knowledge here seem fairly unanimous (if all other data wasnt) that yes, the rafale is pretty much a failure.

Bluewings, you are not specifically knowledgable about this subject, the reason you drive a truck to belgium instead of designing planes is obvious to everyone other than yourself.

It's the reason I would simply urge you to have a bit of humility, you are, on these boards arguing with people who are so far more qualified than you, so far more able to see information that is not in the public-domain, please start with your own life choices and consider for yourself whether you really do have the degree of knowledge and understanding to really argue with these people.

The great thing, personally, is that I come here mainly to expand upon my existing understanding, it will be no great loss to me to lose posting rights, all you seem to come here to do is express the same ignorant, uninformed gibberish, why not stop posting for a while and see whether, reading these pages with any degree of objectivity, you still reach the conclusion that your opinion is somehow useful to the future generations for whom this board, and all its posts will still be available.

ReactivE

Quote Reply

Beazz 6/14/2009 12:43:52 PM

Beazz :

It is understandable and they will get what they ask .

To that I say what rubbish.""

You are outrageously twisting my words to fit you stupid point of view , this is not the way to have a proper debate .

The Rafale has an excellent thrust ratio and is one of the best climbers around (climb rate is in excess of 1.000ft/sec) .

Since you don 't seem to know anything about the Snecma M88 family of engines , here is a little reminder :

""Qualification of the basic Snecma M88-2 was completed in early 1996, with the first production engine delivered at the end of the same year.

The M88-2 has a thrust-to-weight ratio of 8.5, producing 11,250/16,850lb of dry/afterburner thrust (50/75kN). The engine has proved extremely reliable in flight tests to-date, by early May building up 6,200 flight hours on the Rafale, giving a total of 16,400h, including test bench running. "It is now ready for entry into operational service," says Jean Massot, M88 general manager.

Development took place under a fixed (unrevealed) price contract. The engine features state of the art technologies found also in its contemporaries, including single-crystal high-pressure turbine blades, powder metallurgy discs and full authority digital engine controls. Unrestricted operation throughout the flight envelope has been demonstrated, as has "extremely fast throttle response, low observability and multimission flexibility".

Construction is based around 21 modules, interchangeable without the need for recalibration or balancing, along with a number of line replaceable units.

Snecma is developing the M88-2 Stage 4, which has the same thrust as the standard M88-2, but incorporates improvements aimed at extending the service life of the engine and reducing fuel consumption, which Massot says "will also reduce operating costs significantly". Another benefit will be to improve the duration of the low-level penetration missions.

The changes include the introduction of three-dimensional high-pressure (HP) compressor and turbine blades, blisks (one-piece blades and discs) improved thermal coatings on the HP turbine, and advanced cooling channels for the combustion chamber. The Stage 4 development will be ready in early 2001 and the modifications will be retrofitted to the M88-2. It will power the 48 Rafales ordered in the Government's multi-year procurement plan.

A further development, the M88-3, rated at 9.5t thrust, still awaits funding, but has been benchtested on a privately funded demonstrator. "We are proposing the M88-3 to the French government for the future standard of the Rafale in the early 2000s and to prospective export customers", says Massot.

The M88-3 features a new LP compressor with higher mass flow (from 65kg/s in the -2 to 73.4kg/s). A new variable stator vane stage has been introduced, permitting the engine to operate at optimum conditions through a much wider range, reducing part-power-specific fuel consumption and providing more operational flexibility to suit the Rafale's multimission role. The development comes out of Snecma's CENTOR LP compressor research programme and from other exploratory developments carried out by Snecma in recent years. Orders for the M88-2 stand at 42 engines, plus modules and spares, with a further order for 96 units (for the 48 Rafales) expected at the Paris air show.

with the first production engine delivered at the end of the same year.""

Beazz , this is a rather old paper but you now know a bit more . I can also give you more details with this other paper (thanks "Wingman") :

""M88 Developements for Domestic and Export markets:

First the main developement was destined to the domestic market (MN/AdA) with the steps taken by SNECMA from M88-2E1 to M88-2E4.

FROM Standard M88-2 to M88-2E4 developed from <> 1995.

New:

----Three-dimensional high-pressure (HP) compressor.

----Turbine blades.

----Blisks (one-piece blades and discs).

----Improved thermal coatings on the HP turbine.

----Advanced cooling channels for the combustion chamber.

Noticeable technological progresses:

TURBINE BLADE LIFE AUGMENTED BY A FACTOR OF THREE.

BLISKS.

TOLERANCE TO HIGHER TEMPERATURES.

SFC LOWERED BY UP TO 4% COMPARED TO M88-2-Evolution1.

---->

FROM Standard M88-2E4 to M88-3.

New:

----LP compressor.

----Variable stator vane stage.

---->

FROM M88-3 to M88 ECO.

----HP corps.

----Combustion chamber.

---->

M88-3 VS M88 ECO.

Diameter:--------- 790mm 31.1-in VS 700mm 27.56-in.

Length:----------- 3.6 m 12-ft VS 3.5 m 12-ft.

Weight:----------- 985 kg 2,172-lb VS 897 kg 1,978-lb.

Thrust:----------- 89.9 kN 20,250-lb VS 75.5 kN 17,000-lb. ""

Cheers .

As usual you don't know what you are talking about BW. Here's what a simple google of UAE weather patterns are.

The United Arab Emirates lies in the arid tropical zone. Its climate is characterized by a high temperature and humidity in summer and a moderate winter accompanied by irregular rainfall, the annual average of which rarely exceeds between 5 and 10 inches.

The average temperature throughout the year is around 75°F (24°C). The summer season extends from May to October during which the temperature varies between 113°F to 122°F (30°C-47°C).

The Northern wind in summer reduces the temperature while, in winter, the temperature declines to an average which varies between 60°F-70°F(12°C-26°C).

I can tell you that Florida DOES very much so compare with this!! Come and try it on for size hero. Not quiet as hot (95F-100F) but still very hot and the humidity is unbearable. I cut the grasss yesterday sitting on a riding lawn mower and when I was done it was as if someone had literally taken a waterhose to me for an houh. As for how powerful or not your Rafail engines are, YOU are the one that said it needs more powerful engines so it can get to 30K feet quicker, NOT me. All that gobbly gook technical babble you posted above means zilch to me, and honestly, I doubt you have a clue what it means either!! Pulling up some technical babble off the net does not mean one understands it BW. I admit I have no clue what any of it means. Why don't you do the same and stop trying to act as if you actually understand the workings of a jet fighter engine. I do however have first hand experience on how many types of a/c actually perform in all kinds of weather. I kept a/c from running into each other for 30 years by knowing how well they perform under all sets of weather circumstances. What is your actual working experience with a/c performance characteristics? Google??????

I'll say it again, IF what you say is true as for the reason the UAE requires better engines, ( I admit, I DOUBT that is the reason but rather you and your ignorance as usual) then the current engines are crap!! An American Airlines MD80, B757, B767, etc, etc, etc. could be at 30K feet well before any 150 miles and if Rafail cannot, then it's a piece of crap. Plain and simple. I suspect it CAN be, but you implied it needs more power in order to do so in a timely manner. Maybe you should shut up because all you are doing is making the Rafail look like more of a dog then it actually is with your statements.

Cheers to you BW

Beazz

Quote Reply

Reactive 6/14/2009 12:45:18 PM

And I mean no malice or snobbery there, just an expression of how absurd this actually is - humility is the ability for people to express wonder at what we achieve collectively without needing to pretend we are all experts in subjects we have only an "enthusiast's" knowledge of.

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 6/14/2009 1:45:20 PM

Reactive , you do not know who I am and what I 've done . I have been a truck driver for 2 years now but before that I 've done many things including being a long time in the French Forces .

Don 't judge others so easily , Sir .

To be honest Reactive , to hear from a British that the Rafale is a failure is quite amusing , really . I could answer you by quoting a RAF Typhoon Pilot talking about his jet : "we need a decent weapon platform and not a Ferrari" .

You can also keep your lecture to someone else , I know perfectly what I am doing thank you .

Beazz you still carry on on outrageously twisting my words so for the last time , here is what I said :

""2) they want to reach 30.000ft as fast as possible because they are less than 150nm away from the Iranian border .""

Where did I say that Rafale needs 150nm to reach 30.000ft ??? Can 't you read english ?

Having a Rafale capable of a 360m/s climb rate with twins M88-3 is something highly desirable if your country is rather small and close to a potential enemy . I do not know where the problem is ...

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Slim Pickinz BW 6/14/2009 3:14:43 PM

Reactive , you do not know who I am and what I 've done . I have been a truck driver for 2 years now but before that I 've done many things including being a long time in the French Forces .

Don 't judge others so easily , Sir .

You can also keep your lecture to someone else , I know perfectly what I am doing thank you .

Beazz you still carry on on outrageously twisting my words so for the last time , here is what I said :

""2) they want to reach 30.000ft as fast as possible because they are less than 150nm away from the Iranian border .""

Where did I say that Rafale needs 150nm to reach 30.000ft ??? Can 't you read english ?

Having a Rafale capable of a 360m/s climb rate with twins M88-3 is something highly desirable if your country is rather small and close to a potential enemy . I do not know where the problem is ...

Cheers .

BW, maybe people would take you more seriously if you explained to them exactly what your experience is with military aircraft, rather than a vague response about being in the French Forces. For all we know, you could have just been a truck driver in a logistical support unit, hauling ammo and spare parts.

Beazz gave an example of his experience in military ATC, what did you do??

BTW I am not trying to be condescending, I am just trying to help you make your arguments more credible to others.

Slim

Quote Reply

Reactive 6/14/2009 3:45:51 PM

Yes, precisely, he could be a career driver, nothing wrong with that whatsoever, nothing at all - but I think in so many ways he is deficient in his arguments. People have pointed out endless mistakes he's made during this thread, and in typical fashion he doesn't have the honour or decency to shut up or acknowledge that his relative inexperience in this subject makes him a less-than-ideal person to be estimating the combat efficiency of 4th and 5th gen jets.

And you know BW, I am quite happy to accept many procurement inadequacies of the UK in recent years, I would say, however, that the Typhoon is a far more respected plane worldwide, and that in any case, I have absolutely no problem accepting american technological dominance in the F22, F35, and a myriad of other areas. I don't need to pretend that the "bird" that happens to be from my country is best, because it's not, it's 2nd best in some areas, worse in others, the rafale is quite a way down the field, which, as so many people have tried in vain to explain to you, and all i'm saying is that given they know more than you, you need to accept you've been beaten, you have to understand that to anyone reading this thread you look like an absolute turd, you are, as I think Herald said, damaging the reputation of the plane you love so much purely by the fact that there is now such a vast volume of rubbish spouted by you, in such a stereotypically french manner, that most people looking for rafale information online will at some point have the misfortune to stumble upon your endless trolling and inconsistent "truck driver" logic.

Enough.

Quote Reply

Reactive 6/14/2009 3:52:48 PM

I also want bluewings to record himself saying "outrageous".

In my head he's like the french people in monty python and the holy grail.

Except obviously every joke wears thin eventually.

Quote Reply

Reactive 6/14/2009 4:23:44 PM

I also want bluewings to record himself saying "outrageous".

In my head he's like the french people in monty python and the holy grail.

Except obviously every joke wears thin eventually.

Quote Reply

Reactive 6/14/2009 4:39:07 PM

I also want bluewings to record himself saying "outrageous".

In my head he's like the french people in monty python and the holy grail.

Except obviously every joke wears thin eventually.

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 6/14/2009 4:43:31 PM

To Slim , Reactive and other new posters . Here on SP , most old posters know who I am . I 've been here for over 6 years (maybe 7 ?) . I have been a long time in the French AirForce first as a Commando para (GFCA) , then as a sniper in a now old unit from the GIA who was to become later the CPA-10 .

h*tp://le.cos.free.fr/cpa10.htm

I have been twice in the sandbox in the early eighties fighting Syrians and hezbollah . I know Commando Ops and landwarfare in general very well (I am an ex sergeant chef = staff sargeant) . I also worked as a scenario and operation Designer for a US Company specialised in military tank simulations used by many NATO and non NATO Nations . Jets and Fighters are a hobby and my personal doc and understanding of French Fighters is rather good , I also have friends in the Forces to who I can ask precisions and details if I need to . I live (for now) in Dijon , Burgondy , France , which is the city where I was born 46 years ago . This is the city where the Airbase BA-102 is with the M2000-5Fs . I know personaly one mecanic and a pilot .

***********************

Reactive said :

""the rafale is quite a way down the field""

I am sorry to say but if you 're trying to compare our latest Rafales with the latest Typhoons , the European jet is waaay behind . Keep in mind that I am NOT saying that the Typhoon is a bad aircraft , in fact far from it but as it stands the jet is lacking in many and various areas . This is not the place to discuss such topic , suffice to say that Typhoon is not ready to be a multi-role fighter yet and has absolutly no experience at all of war Ops . I also want to remind people that the supposed Typhoon edge BVR is nothing but a supposition based on forums rumors . The only 2 known encounters between Typhoon (T1) and Rafale (F1) tend to show the parity . No Typhoon ever met in excercise the latest Rafale yet ...

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 6/14/2009 5:05:34 PM

SP is an American forum , that says it all ;-)

Being French here is like to be a British against the Zulus (!) , we 're outnumbered but we hold our ground .

What some posters do not want to understand is the fact that I don 't invent things , I mostly correct what is said about the Rafale . I can understand that the Rafale might not be your favorite plane and that you do not know details a fan or people in the know is aware of and I don 't blame anyone . In fact , if you try to check what I am saying on the Net , you will see that I am using mostly open and official sources and not fanclub copy/paste .

I know that I am serious but some tend to think otherwise ...

Cheers .

Quote Reply

Herald12345 This is a fanboy. 6/14/2009 5:23:23 PM

A forty year old+ fanboy who has trouble with basic science and physics, doesn't know the first thing about rocketry and ballistics, tries to argue for French honeur, but doesn't remember that the first thing a Frenchman is, is HONEST, and tries to conveniently forget the last fantasy he invents?

I could care less that he claims he was a pathfinder, or a sniper, or that he is in reality even a truckdriver. As I said once before I once worked in a place where a Filipino janitor could take a machine part or look at a system problem that drove me nuts. He would listen to me as I railed at it, then ask me a few questions about the problem, and then he would tell me the solution. I asked him why he, an old man of such brilliance that he could make me look stupid by just talking about the weather, settled for being a janotor when it was obvious he could outsolve the whole lost of us when it came to the problems we faced, and he told me that he retired from the pressures of a life of such work and that he just needed some other useful work to keep him busy since he didn't want to be on the dole.

I admired that old man. I still do.

He proved by doing that he know what he was doing or saying.every day. He was a janitor, and the best intuiitive mechanical engineer, or system machinist, that I ever saw.

Resume or current job doesn't mean everything folks.

Herald

Quote Reply

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