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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with:

1 - no export sales
2 - no laser designator
3 - no AESA
4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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warpig       5/10/2009 4:12:46 PM


  It becomes then obvious that a MICA will have a much longer Maximum aerodynamic range and longer No escape range than an AIM-120, in particular the latest croped-wing versions, by simple virtue of the lift provided by its wings.


  This will be even more obvious where energy is echanged with altitude be it in the snap-up or snap-down mode.

 
 
 
 
 
What a shame.  Until you posted this, I was hoping that maybe a Francophile had appeared who actually knew what he was talking about based on personal experience/training, rather than just making claims based on stuff he has read on some website and regurgitated.  Sadly, since you stated the part above in such a 100% certain fashion. this shows me that I can't trust anything you say as if it is personally-experienced fact, and can only assume everything you say is just something you read on the internet.  Now you sound like just another FS/BW clone.  Incidentally, if you actually want to correct any simplistic approach to determining missile ranges you ought to be instructing BW, not Herald.  Oh well.  Where are the French pilots or engineers who will acknowledge the truth?
 
 
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PierreLeGrand    @warpig   5/11/2009 3:35:28 AM
 
 Well you are more than welcome to enlight us as to what exactly is "shameful" into believing that US AAMs obbeys to the laws of physic and aerodynamics the very same whay than any other AAMs.
 
  As far as these laws are concerned turn rates results on the combination of :
 
 And boy, remember that assumption is the mother of all fcuk-up, you have no clue where i got my informations and knowledge base from the combination of:
 
Cl, High atmospheric Density, High load Factor, Low Wing Loading.
 
  Now you find us any reasons to believe that my analysis was wrong based on the FACT that range is based on thrust vs lift at 1g , computed in stablelised flight and that MICA pulls can nicely 10 G more than AIM-120...
 
  One can reasonably conclude that at 1 g a short wingspaned AAM flying 1.0 M faster, having higher Cl, Load Factor and Lower Wing Load will have a lower drag Coeffiscient than a simple tube with delta wings and control surfaces which needs a higher AoA to produce less LIFT and sustain level flight before even mentioning any form of maneuvring.
 
  Oh and i nearly forgot, how does this NOT apply even in a more visible maneer in the case of snap-up and snap-down scenarios?
 
   I am awaiting your reply impatiently and PS as opposed to many over here i know enough not to take "the internet" for godhimself @whatever.copy.paste.
 
   Regards, PlG
 
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PierreLeGrand    @warpig    5/11/2009 3:51:03 AM
 
 I might i have given you the impression that i was implying MICA to have a range superior to that of an AIM-120D.
 
 AIM-120 D motor have been redesigned if i remember well and i was refering in terms of Maximum Aerodynamic Range to the 120-Cs even the C5.
 
  I stick to my comment about Maximum No Escape Range for all AIM-120 types based on my previous post for obvious reasons.
 
  I think you know what i mean...
 
  Regards. PlG
 
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warpig       5/11/2009 5:42:00 PM
  Alas, I no longer visit StrategyPage to try to win arguments by presenting a more convincing set of internet-linked articles.  This isn't a high school debate club.  I only come here to learn truth (as opposed to someone's "facts") and to share what I know is truth.  I don't require you to... or even care if you do... believe me or not.  If you wish to believe the lie that MICA outranges AIM-120C in any version (given the same launch conditions, naturally), then go ahead.  MICA performance--particularly vs. AIM-120-- has been beat to death on StrategyPage over the last few years (most notably back around 2007) and should be easily searchable, if you care to learn.  As I said, I am disappointed and wish some Frenchman would step up who actually acknowledges the truth.
 
 
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Bluewings12       5/11/2009 6:37:35 PM
""MICA performance--particularly vs. AIM-120-- has been beat to death on StrategyPage""
 
Yes and MICA won on all accounts  .
Myself I would trust the Mica over any other missile in between 500m and 60km (to make sure) . The thing is a killer , make no mistake . It 's coming at you muck quicker than an AMRAAM and it can pull Gs an AMRAAM can only dream of . It EM seeker is of the latest generation and has been tested intensively in anechoic chamber , the Mica EM computer/radar combo allow fast frequency jumps and band blinding to counter a possible jamming . When the thing has a lock , it is locked .
Amraam has been known to get jammed (ie : M2000 over Kosovo jamming a Dutch Amraam fired by mistake) .
The AIM-120C is not cuting the mustard , far from it . It is slow for a BVR missile , it can 't turn and its end game is very poor compare to Mica ...
 
Cheers .
 
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PierreLeGrand       5/11/2009 7:09:59 PM

  Alas, I no longer visit StrategyPage to try to win arguments by presenting a more convincing set of internet-linked articles.  This isn't a high school debate club.  I only come here to learn truth (as opposed to someone's "facts") and to share what I know is truth.  I don't require you to... or even care if you do... believe me or not.  If you wish to believe the lie that MICA outranges AIM-120C in any version (given the same launch conditions, naturally), then go ahead.  MICA performance--particularly vs. AIM-120-- has been beat to death on StrategyPage over the last few years (most notably back around 2007) and should be easily searchable, if you care to learn.  As I said, I am disappointed and wish some Frenchman would step up who actually acknowledges the truth.

 



From where i am concerned the truth as you put it is what you chose to ignore.
 
If you knew anything about MICA design, then took it into account vs the most elementary aerodynamic and phcysic laws, then you would understand WHY IXARM (which is a gouvernement armement portal), as an extention of the French procurement Agency gives it for > 80 km and WHY it is perfercly feasable to achive the same performances than an AIM-120 or better them.
 
 As far was we know, 80 km is the range of the AIM-120 uo tp the C5, the C7 have an improved motor which was further improved wit hthe D which is daid to have a range of <> 120 km.
 
  When it comes to No Escape Range it is pretty obvious that physics and aerodynamics plays even more.
 
  Now, care to elaborate on these particular when it comnes to snap-up snap-down scenarios?
 
  The truth is perhaps you dont wanna know.
 
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cwDeici       5/14/2009 8:28:04 AM

""MICA performance--particularly vs. AIM-120-- has been beat to death on StrategyPage""

 

Yes and MICA won on all accounts  .

Myself I would trust the Mica over any other missile in between 500m and 60km (to make sure) . The thing is a killer , make no mistake . It 's coming at you muck quicker than an AMRAAM and it can pull Gs an AMRAAM can only dream of . It EM seeker is of the latest generation and has been tested intensively in anechoic chamber , the Mica EM computer/radar combo allow fast frequency jumps and band blinding to counter a possible jamming . When the thing has a lock , it is locked .


Amraam has been known to get jammed (ie : M2000 over Kosovo jamming a Dutch Amraam fired by mistake) .

The AIM-120C is not cuting the mustard , far from it . It is slow for a BVR missile , it can 't turn and its end game is very poor compare to Mica ...


 

Cheers .



 
The MICA has advanced AI that will lock its brain functions onto the target aircraft, thus sparing the need for a targeting system!
 
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cwDeici       5/14/2009 8:28:29 AM
Too bad you won't stick to this thread on the Rafale.
 
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cwDeici       5/14/2009 8:31:17 AM




  Alas, I no longer visit StrategyPage to try to win arguments by presenting a more convincing set of internet-linked articles.  This isn't a high school debate club.  I only come here to learn truth (as opposed to someone's "facts") and to share what I know is truth.  I don't require you to... or even care if you do... believe me or not.  If you wish to believe the lie that MICA outranges AIM-120C in any version (given the same launch conditions, naturally), then go ahead.  MICA performance--particularly vs. AIM-120-- has been beat to death on StrategyPage over the last few years (most notably back around 2007) and should be easily searchable, if you care to learn.  As I said, I am disappointed and wish some Frenchman would step up who actually acknowledges the truth.



 








From where i am concerned the truth as you put it is what you chose to ignore.

 

If you knew anything about MICA design, then took it into account vs the most elementary aerodynamic and phcysic laws, then you would understand WHY IXARM (which is a gouvernement armement portal), as an extention of the French procurement Agency gives it for > 80 km and WHY it is perfercly feasable to achive the same performances than an AIM-120 or better them.

 

 As far was we know, 80 km is the range of the AIM-120 uo tp the C5, the C7 have an improved motor which was further improved wit hthe D which is daid to have a range of <> 120 km.

 

  When it comes to No Escape Range it is pretty obvious that physics and aerodynamics plays even more.

 

  Now, care to elaborate on these particular when it comnes to snap-up snap-down scenarios?

 

  The truth is perhaps you dont wanna know.



Oh right, so it's only your nearly exclusively French side that is ignoring reality and not the other way around.
 
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Reactive       6/12/2009 2:38:10 PM
Bluewings, As someone who has read this site for years, and always found myself inclined not to get involved in debates that seem to end up (inevitably) with you essentially producing elementary and simplistic arguments for anything that happens to be french.
 
There's no point saying what others have said, but I just thought I should give you somewhat of an "audience" perspective (as a fellow European).
 
I can understand people's frustration with Herald, because he doesn't really enjoy having arguments with people who don't know what they are talking about, he gets angry and upsets stupid people, but I can understand how he feels, conversing with you is pointless, you essentially produce, epic quantities of rubbish, it rarely gets more specific than press releases and web-trawled statements which you then express as fact.
 
Think how biased and far-fetched your arguments are, when you have been repeatedly proven to be wrong you simply deny or obfuscate what you originally stated. You have the same impartiality of "information" dissemination as Joseph Goebbels.
 
When I read a post on this forum, there are people who are able, through their analyses to present arguments that are educationally valuable, and interesting, people whose industry-specific knowledge is enjoyable to read, and informative. I have a sense of dread every time I see a post from you, it makes this page "less valuable" as a source of knowledge, I wish there was a function to simply ignore you altogether, however, given you take up such a collossal amount of bandwidth to express what are inevitably half-baked, simplistic arguments in favour of anything French.
 
And I just.. I guess, I wish you'd shut up, you obscure and violate interesting exchanges of information, you make this site so much less interesting to me : ( .
 
And regarding the rafale, your arguments look so bizarre, they always overstate functionality, IRIS-T was explained perfectly in several good posts, a very good secondary system, but no comparison in any respect to good Radar. It's no magic bullet, there is such a widespread body of available opinion in so many arenas available that indicate the very real and provable shortcomings that has ruined the export potential of the plane, so many tests flown that did not meet requirements for procurements of nations that actually don't need the very best anyway.
 
Please, for everyone's sake, and I mean this as someone who is making his first post after many years of often painful reading (whenever you post), please just F**K off, I wonder if strategypage would have more informed posters if they didn't have to read you here. And this is an appeal to strategypage, as a long-term reader, can you not at some point moderate the content of the discussion so that diversionary, unmerited, propoganda is removed from the site.
 
As I mentioned, I'm European, I despair when I see such stereotypically obsessive behaviour, so many people have pointed out the simple reason that you will support your (french) system of choice irrespective of any argument, may I at least request that you confine your denial to yourself, and don't lessen the value of an otherwise fascinating forum by adding so many long-winded and weakly-argued posts.
 
The basic principle is very simple, you have a system that happens to be from your own country that is quite mediocre (to use a french word), you have to accept at some point that what you essentially do is take every implausible strength of your system of choice (which just so happens to always be french) and exaggerate it wildly until people get bored of arguing with you.
 
 To everyone else, (especially phaid, DA, Herald) thanks for providing me with many hours of enjoyable, informative reading, Cheers : )
 
ReactivE
 
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica       6/12/2009 3:09:15 PM
Thank You. I'm deeply humbled by your very gracious words. 

-DA 
 
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cwDeici       6/12/2009 4:24:28 PM

""MICA performance--particularly vs. AIM-120-- has been beat to death on StrategyPage""

 

Yes and MICA won on all accounts  .

Myself I would trust the Mica over any other missile in between 500m and 60km (to make sure) . The thing is a killer , make no mistake . It 's coming at you muck quicker than an AMRAAM and it can pull Gs an AMRAAM can only dream of . It EM seeker is of the latest generation and has been tested intensively in anechoic chamber , the Mica EM computer/radar combo allow fast frequency jumps and band blinding to counter a possible jamming . When the thing has a lock , it is locked .


Amraam has been known to get jammed (ie : M2000 over Kosovo jamming a Dutch Amraam fired by mistake) .

The AIM-120C is not cuting the mustard , far from it . It is slow for a BVR missile , it can 't turn and its end game is very poor compare to Mica ...


 

Cheers .



 
You're just a lying fanboy in love and noone cares what you think.
 
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cwDeici       6/12/2009 4:26:18 PM
Huh weird, it looked like that was a new post I responded to. Nvm.
 
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strat-T21C    UAE & Kuwait   6/12/2009 4:48:27 PM
Just reading in Janes today that the two nations above would consider the Rafael. HOWEVER, it would have to have greater radar/targeting for the Meteor (which it doesn't have) and greater thrust, 9tons ( which it doesn't have) Hmmmm???
  Time to design a plane that works and can be sold abroad, instead of one that France HAS to buy 'cause it is stuck with it.
 
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Herald12345    I'm going to hang that one right up next to "Cut the crap, and get to the point!"   6/12/2009 5:36:33 PM
"I can understand people's frustration with Herald, because he doesn't really enjoy having arguments with people who don't know what they are talking about, he gets angry and upsets stupid people,"
 
Thanks for that observation, ReactivE.
 
And I will continue to try to rein in the temper.
 
Herald  
 
 
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