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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with: 1 - no export sales 2 - no laser designator 3 - no AESA 4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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DarthAmerica       3/19/2009 11:14:41 PM

DA , read the specs again :

h*tp://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D1236.pdf 


 

Cheers .


Read it. Notice this part which reads a lot like my last post...

 

...quite a bit different from what a radar can do. Also note the vulnerability.

Now read this:

Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: ?During the OLS tests we got MiG-29 detection ranges up to 45 km from the tail and 15 km from the front. Ranging device effective range for the aerial targets is 15 km, for the ground targets - more then 20 km.?

MiG-35 OLS

New OLS is intelligence system of technical vision to work in realtime of fast combat environment. In air combat complex allows:
- detect not-afterburning target on the 45km range and more;
- identify this target on 8-10km range;
- estimate aerial target range up to 15 km.

 
 ht*p://www.aviapedia.com/video/new-mig-35-ols-video


-DA
 
 
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leroy       3/20/2009 2:39:35 AM
"Yes , with SPECTRA , TV cam and MICA ."
 
Yes, from ranges around the edges of visual range, against targets that would have detected the Rafale a long long time ago.  
 
An IRST will not provide a sufficiently high quality track to launch the sorts of long range attacks you like to dream about.
 
What the heck is the point of trying to be "silent" when you aren't even flying a stealthy aircraft?  Your opponent will have detected you long before you could take your shot anyways.
 
"On a different topic , It also seems that the AESA RBE2 will be implemented on Rafale earlier than previously planned . The reason is the possible deal with the UAE for 63 Rafale F4s . That F4 Rafale will have new engines (9 tons thrust each) , AESA RBE2 , full OSF-NG and Meteor ."
 
We shall see kid... as we have seen with the other deals the Rafale had supposedly won at various points lots can change in the last stages of a negotiation.  This deal in particular could prove iffy because the only reason the UAE would be doing it is as a favor to France and they are still going to require you to play used car salesman for their Mirages.
 
"The whole fleet of French Rafales could get the AESA RBE2 and the OSF-NG by 2012 , the 9 tons thrust engine would be reserved for the UAE ."
 
Could get by 2012?  and where did you get this idea?  Your AESA will just be starting to trickle off the production line in 2012.  Your next generation IRST isn't even that close.  How do you figure you are going to be able to upgrade your entire fleet by 2012? (I know it is only something like 70 aircraft, but that is still a lot to ask of a country that hasn't yet gotten their first AESA radar into production.)
 
As usual bluewings... you just don't get it.
 
 
 
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leroy       3/20/2009 2:40:14 AM
"Check the nose cone size . Is the RBE2 as small as some internet addicts seem to think it is ?"
 
 Yes kid...  it is.
 
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Softwar       3/20/2009 9:38:06 AM
Once again - parading what "could be" as what is...  Coming soon does not count.
The AESA could happen depending on whether the UAE decides to cough up the money but clearly Paris is not interested in boosting the defense budget on their own.  So whether the rest of the Rafale fleet (if the export happens) gets the upgrade depends greatly on politics and profits.
 
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Phaid       3/20/2009 1:56:38 PM
"On a different topic , It also seems that the AESA RBE2 will be implemented on Rafale earlier than previously planned . The reason is the possible deal with the UAE for 63 Rafale F4s . That F4 Rafale will have new engines (9 tons thrust each) , AESA RBE2 , full OSF-NG and Meteor ."
 
We shall see kid... as we have seen with the other deals the Rafale had supposedly won at various points lots can change in the last stages of a negotiation.  This deal in particular could prove iffy because the only reason the UAE would be doing it is as a favor to France and they are still going to require you to play used car salesman for their Mirages.
 
Well, BW is completely mischaracterizing the UAE situation here.  In real life, what has happened is that the UAE has indicated that it would be willing to buy around 60 Rafales if two conditions are met: 1) that the aircraft feature an AESA, Meteor compatibility, and uprated engines, and 2) that France buy back the 60 Mirage 2000-9s that the Rafales will be replacing.  The deal could well fall through, because as you say France has to figure out who to sell the Mirages to (the AdlA have already stated they will not take them into service) and because of the question of who will finance the development of the AESA and engines. France has already indicated it will not finance the M88-3, and the UAE has not indicated that it is willing to do so.
 
And no, just to head that nonsense off: neither the engines nor the AESA are actually developed at this point; studies of the engine and prototypes of the radar are not fully-funded and operational systems.
 
"The whole fleet of French Rafales could get the AESA RBE2 and the OSF-NG by 2012 , the 9 tons thrust engine would be reserved for the UAE ."
 
Could get by 2012?  and where did you get this idea?  Your AESA will just be starting to trickle off the production line in 2012.  Your next generation IRST isn't even that close.  How do you figure you are going to be able to upgrade your entire fleet by 2012? (I know it is only something like 70 aircraft, but that is still a lot to ask of a country that hasn't yet gotten their first AESA radar into production.)
 
2012 is the earliest that the UAE could possibly get the Rafales with AESA assuming all of the required deals go through smoothly.  Good luck with that.  There is no indication that the AdlA would backfit its current and on-order batches of Rafales with any new systems.  BW is trying to put an optimistic spin on the harsh reality that the UAE will not finance the AESA and Meteor for Rafale, so France will, which I suppose will then give them "the opportunity" to install those systems on their own Rafales.  It's rather like saying that because the Block 60 has AESA and 32,000 lb engines, so does every other F-16.  Not quite.
 
Here is the article... that BW is sourcing all of this misconstrued information from, BTW.  The title says it all:  To Sell Rafale to the Emirates, Paris Forced to Finance a New Version.
 
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Phaid       3/20/2009 2:41:03 PM
Also, regarding all of the current nonsense about the "OSF nouvelle generation"
 
Yes, SwissOptic is involved, to the extent that they have been sourced as a supplier for some of the optical components.  The fact that France is trying to sell the Rafale to Switzerland played more of a role in that than any specific technical capabilities.
 
The new OSF will still not have an IR channel.  The new OSF that is to be backfitted into the current production F3s is TV-only.
 
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Phaid       3/20/2009 3:32:03 PM
Btw , here is a picture from the last RedFlag ::
h*tp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9484/080808redflag3.jpg
 
Check the nose cone size . Is the RBE2 as small as some internet addicts seem to think it is ?
 
Why, yes.  Yes it is:
 
rafale and f-16
rafale nose 
Look where the OSF is.  You can clearly see the nose cone in front of that.  Compare that to the F-16's nose and you clearly see that the F-16's aperture is wider than the Rafale's.  As I stated before, Rafale's radar is circular with an array diameter of 550mm.  The F-16's nose is elliptical with max dimensions of 740 x 480 mm.  That works out to an area of of 0.238 m2 for the Rafale versus 0.279 m2 for the F-16.  Compared to an area of about 0.385 m2 for the F/A-18 and Typhoon, 0.5 m2 for the F-35, and 0.785 m2 for the F-22 and F-15. 
 
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leroy       3/20/2009 3:51:29 PM
Once again... exposed rivets and seams everywhere...
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    Quick reply   3/20/2009 4:13:51 PM

Ok ignoring BW?s commentary, can someone tell me how much of a concern mach cone or any shockwaves propagating form a supersonic target is for counter detection from a IRST? I?ve heard some folks mention cone stagnation produces a fairly large IR signature but I?m not up to snuff on the topic (or how truly effective IRST really are for that matter)


 


Thx


MM


That depends on overall background contrast as the amount of excitation (HEAT) as the aircraft heats (kinetic energy imparted) to the air by its generated shockwave. Its a physical effect as the standing shockwave causes its own friction event interface air on air [or even SOUND] (acts like a solid). But then as with the aircraft heating up itself as an object, DISTANCE and local obscuration effects degrade the detector's ability to see the event as a heat source or to count it by sampling, or see it move across a "static" background..
 
Sorry but that is as simple as I can explain it.
 . 
Herald
 
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Softwar       3/20/2009 4:16:30 PM
Damn - Herald - even I understood that.
 
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