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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with:

1 - no export sales
2 - no laser designator
3 - no AESA
4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 7:04:24 PM
DA , I am gobsmacked ! You are the man (I am one too) , but the way you fired Herald is nothing short of astounding .
You are spot on and I also don 't understand why SYSOPS kept that vitriolic internet addict for so long .
God knows how many hot discussions we had in the past , you , I and others , before the arrival of poseur3 , but we never insulted each other or been so venimous as the bugger can be . As you rightly said , the bloke couln 't get an half decent position in any good Company , he never shown any kind of understanding , any kind of open mind and any kind of repectuous ledearship . Herald is a clown who has been studying at some point in his life but he still probably live with his Mum even if he 's maybe 40 years old , pathetic ...
 
I 'm not a very rich man , but I 'm ready to send a 200 US dollar banknote to Poseur 3 if he can prove anything worth it about his real life , like some kind of CV...
I would have no problem to post mine online , here and for all to see (beside the black Ops in Lebanon/Syria) .
**********************
Back to the Rafale .  I said that the IR MICA can be used as an IRST and it is . Leroy is wrong again . The AdA in late 80s was already using the Magic 2 onboard M200s as an IRST , the Magic 2 had a 28km range aquisition . The IR MICA seeker 's unofficial range studies give it a 40km range . Of course , this is nothing comparable to OSF (100km range) but it is better than nothing and IT IS used as an IRST .
 
Regarding the 1st European F-35 , I hope to see it participating at the TigerMeet in 2013 if the program has luck on its side , but we could well not see it before 2015 . In 6 years time , the Rafale will be F3+ , the Typhoon will have 5 years of operational service and the gripen will most probably be the Gripen NG . By that time , more and more Vipers , Eagles and Hornets will be at rest , rusting away on gigantic airplane parks .
 
""Better?  Depends a lot on what you want to do with it.  Land it on a carrier?  Then the Rafale is the plane you want.  If you are looking for a pure interceptor then you want the Eurofighter. ""
 
Tell me something poseur4 , who 's looking to buy a pure interceptor nowadays ??? No -one .
Today , the goal is to have multi role platforms and we have the tech to do some good jack of all trade Fighters . Anyway , where did you get that the Typhoon could beat the Rafale BVR ??? The jets met twice already and the outcome is not clear .
Over the Med sea with nowhere to hide , you should say that the best and purest Interceptor would win but it was not the case , it seems that the Rafale/Typhoon encounter was a draw . On the other hand , during the South-Korean evaluation , the Typhoon had the upper hand on Rafale with a suppositly 4-2 score . We know of a 3rd encounter but the outcome has not been published or even talked of . Again , I repeat that France has never used the active capabilities of SPECTRA yet .
While the European Forces know a bit about the ECM onboard our M2000s , no one has ever experienced active jamming from SPECTRA besides French Pilots over French soil and in restricted airspace . JP Bergerac (if he wants to) can back me up on this .
 
I also said :
"I am only surprised when people try to lecture me on how the latest SHs or Viper Blk52s (or the F-15K) could be superior to the Rafale . These people are grossly underestimating the Rafale (or they are biased and /or anti-french) . To them I will ask a simple question : Which aircraft is more likely to complete its mission and to come back alive in an heavily defended airspace ? "
 
Leroy answered by another BS :
""You are an idiot bluewings.  Only an idiot would still be looking at that problem from a platform-centric perspective after all the explanation we have given you.""
 
AH !!! As soon as we wanna talk about a platform , you bring the usual net centric thing and start to talk BS about how a Fighter should never go alone and bla-bla-bla .We all agree but this is not what I am asking , so don 't try to hide your incompetance and already lost cause behind some poor and off topic excuses . Let me just nail you in your coffin poseur4 :
The UAE are using Vipers Blk 60 (and not the USA , only Blk 52s) but they still want to buy the Rafale to be their main Interceptor , how do you explain that ? The fact is that during evaluations , our Rafales smacked the Blk 60s and the UAE learned the difference .
UAE Blk 60 with conformal tank :
h*tp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/F-16e_block60.jpg


""You mean Rafales acting as one small part of a massive simulated airwar against an imaginary opponent were able to accomplish their mission with huge amounts of support? ""
 
Weeell , now you downgrade RedFlag and you pi*s in the Aggressor Team 's boots ?! Coming from you , I am lololol !
The USAF Intructors flying the Reds must be lol too ... You are a CLOWN and a very bad one ...
 
DA :
""All three carry longer ranged superior BVR weapon and have more advanced radars that can actually exploit the range. So even if you want to argue that MICA is an equivalent, and I'll give you that so as to avoid arguing over minor issues, the Rafale can't exploit that range. READ THIS:
 Featuring a fixed array with an agile beam that scans near the speed of light, the AESA will, for the first time, enable aircrews to conduct simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface operations with independent dual-cockpit operation. In air-to-air mode, the radar allows targets to be engaged at very long ranges, permitting weapons launch at maximum range and enhancing warfighter survivability and lethality. The system also offers high-resolution ground mapping at long standoff ranges for air-to-surface tracking. "The AESA-equipped Super Hornet represents a quantum leap in operational technology and capability," said Chris Chadwick, Boeing vice president for F/A-18 programs. "With the integration of the APG-79 radar, the Super Hornet today has unsurpassed precision strike capability and situational awareness."
 
Excuse me DA but I have to correct you (not that I like it) . You seem to give rightly a huge importance to BVR missile range and even more to radar range . OK , we both agree but what you forget to take into account is the fact that the Rafale as an excellent combo with the RBE2/MICA . 
MICA has a 80km+ range and RBE2 can track a fighter size target at 150km , so where is the problem ?
You that the Rafale can 't exploit the range , huh ??? Furthermore , Rafale RCS and ECMs give the Fighter a much better PK than any of the Teen Fighters (avoid the mistake to go against the facts) .
 
Cheers .

 
 

 
 
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HERALD1357    Have you noticed    3/21/2009 7:12:36 PM

 
 that like seeks like?
 
Herald
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 7:19:49 PM
Poseur3 , stop the bull and leave us alone please , we don 't need you . Thank you .
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       3/21/2009 7:46:35 PM

Weeell , now you downgrade RedFlag and you pi*s in the Aggressor Team 's boots ?! Coming from you , I am lololol !

The USAF Intructors flying the Reds must be lol too ... You are a CLOWN and a very bad one ...

 For goodness sake Fred, this is ridiculous.  Red Flag is a DACT event, thats why it exists.  It's not Blue Flag.

Making comments like that only serves to reinforce that you're trolling when this event is well known and has been explained numerous times..

I'm sorely tempted to post a lesson on DACT again - it's especially pointless from a bandwidth bandit persspective as everyone else knows what it is.  I suspect that you're letting your emotions get the better of you again. 
 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 7:51:09 PM
Phaid :
""Rafale's radar is circular with an array diameter of 550mm.  The F-16's nose is elliptical with max dimensions of 740 x 480 mm.  That works out to an area of of 0.238 m2 for the Rafale versus 0.279 m2 for the F-16.""
 
Wrong . To star with Phaid , since I know that you 're not a wannabe and since I respect you and your knowledge , let me bring to you a nice pdf never posted on SP before , it is in french  :
h*tp://www.unilim.fr/theses/2008/sciences/2008limo4027/estagerie_fx.pdf
 
I hope that you will enjoy the paper . 
Then , some pictures to show my case :
h*tp://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4678/demonstratorrbe2radar2t.jpg
h*tp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4124/testingphaserafale2.jpg
 
The elliptical nose of the Viper can 't have a radar the size of the RBE2 , it is as simple as that .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 7:53:57 PM
gf :
""I'm sorely tempted to post a lesson on DACT again""
 
Don 't , I perfectly know what is RedFlag and a DACT excercise and it is precisely the reason why I speak the way I do .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 7:59:27 PM
gf , thank you for calling me "Fred" again . I know what I 'm talking about my friend .
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       3/21/2009 8:06:11 PM

gf :
""I'm sorely tempted to post a lesson on DACT again""

Don 't , I perfectly know what is RedFlag and a DACT excercise and it is precisely the reason why I speak the way I do .

You obviously don't understand it, so here it is for you as well as other teenagers who have difficulty understanding it's intent:


 
I've had permission from the original "author" of this post on DACT to reproduce it here.It's an interesting thread and seeks to demystify and correct some of the assumptions made about aggressor/dissimilar air combat training. It was initially posted to bring some "lightness and reason" about the Cope India 04 exercise between the USAF and IAF. I've chopped in a few other pertinent comments from elsewhere to round it off.

The guy who penned this has had long term exposure to air combat and dissimilar air combat training, so he is an expert in his field.


There are some serious misconceptions out there about how air combat training is conducted so I've decided to write a post about how it really happens. Everybody seems to want to cite a particular exercise as proof of their point, when in reality, they have no contextual reference for these results they are referencing. Realize that I am writing from a USAF/USN/USMC/NATO perspective. If anyone else can provide some information about how it's done elsewhere, please chime in.

Air-to-air combat is an extremely complex and dynamic undertaking. The combination of speed and the ability to maneuver in three dimensions creates an environment that is constantly changing and rarely allows any of the participants to see and understand the entire picture at once. In order to be successful in this environment, participants must be highly skilled, (reasonably) intelligent individuals who fight in these types of battles regularly. 

Fighter pilots from countries all over the world are expected to use hardware purchased with national treasure to defend their homeland against attackers or attack others as directed by their leaders. In order to effectively accomplish those missions, pilots must regularly train for air combat. Air combat skills are perishable and even the best pilots are not as keen as they might be if they havenâ??t flown in a while â?? especially when flying in large force exercises where one decision may be the difference between success and failure.

Definitions: Air Combat Training (ACT) is a term used to describe a battle between similar aircraft. If 2 F-16s are fighting against 2 other F-16s, this would be an ACT war, whereas 2 F-15s fighting 2 F-16s would be termed Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT). 

When planning a DACT exercise, planners typically will build an Offensive Counterair (OCA) strike package and Defensive Counterair (DCA) package with appropriate aircraft - this was displayed in the Cope India exercise when a strike package consisting of SU-30s, Mirages, and Jaguars attacked a target defended by F-15s. Besides designating types of aircraft and missions, planners will also draw up objectives for the exercise. These objectives can be very specific or quite broad depending on the situation.

A broad objective may be stated as â??building trust between countriesâ?¯ or â??familiarize pilots with other air forces.¯ More specific objectives may be effectively integrate air forces for lane defense. In order to accomplish these objectives, rules of engagement (ROE) will also be set.

ROE consist of weapons load, identification criteria, maneuvering limitations, tactics restrictions, and just about anything else you can think of. ROE can be pretty liberal or very restrictive, depending on the objectives, experience level of the pilots, or number and type of aircraft involved. If the objective is to build trust¯ between nations, you can bet your ass that the rules are going to be damn restrictive to try to ensure there will be no accidents/dangerous or stupid stunts that would embarrass one side or the other or result in needless loss of life. This is why briefings are conducted, and pickup games¯ are not allowed. (This is also the reason why this article about the Typhoons getting bounced by F-15Es is absolute bollocks.) Regardless of the particular ROE established, somebody needs to be the bad guy. 

In most exercises there will be a threat aircraft and weapons designated as the training aid for the other side. In U.S. exercises such as Red Flag, this will be something like a MiG-29 with aa-10s and aa-11s, and will be referred to as opfor¯ or "Red air". Red Air will usually consist of F-15s or F-16s (or whatever they can get) and will do their best to simulate that threat by limiting their radar modes, lock ranges, tactics, etc. Blue Air¯ will fly with their normal weapons loadout and will normally not have any restrictions other than operating their systems in a training/peacetime mode. There may be other restrictions imposed based on the objectives. Typically, the threat capabilities will start out low ? short range missiles and very benign tactics, then increase as the exercise continues, as long as the blue air players are learning something and they are ready to progress to the next level. If the blue air fighters are getting their butts handed to them, the threat level will remain low, but if they are doing well, the threat capability will increase so the training is useful. 

Notice that the red air players are training aids. They are supposed to follow the rules and die like men when blue air is executing well. If, however, the blue air screws something up and they have an opportunity to kick some tail, they are expected to do so. Violating the ROE by using a capability that is restricted, shooting beyond a specified range, or not adhering to an established ID criteria is considered a training rule violation and is dealt with severely. Several pilots have been sent home from exercises and have even been reassigned because they didnâ??t like to follow the rules. 

By now it should becoming clear why one side or the other in these exercises often has a larger kill:loss ratio than the other. Red air is supposed to die even if there are more capable aircraft on the red side. This is how many of the surprising¯ results occur in large exercises the threat level is tailored to the training needs of the blue air so they can learn from their mistakes in the debrief.

When conducting the debrief, kills must be assessed in order to find out what really happened. In order to do this, pilots must review the recording of the mission so they can evaluate their targeting and weapons employment. Red and blue air will get together, exchange data, and together decide who shot who and when. This is often an inexact science, however, with ACMI monitoring and extensive recording equipment in the aircraft, it is getting better. With results in hand, the blue fighters can then determine what they did wrong, and how to do better next time. This training is very effective for the blue air, but it usually sucks for red. What about exercises with real threat¯ aircraft like MiG-29s, MiG-25s, etc? This is obviously the best training there can be, however, there is a problem. 

When participating in an international exercise, both sides are probably going to hold some information back. This is not a you show me yours, "I'll show you mine"¯ game. In many cases, the shot data/weapons performance is classified, and not releasable to those on the other side. This is exactly the case in Cope India 04. 

How do you debrief an engagement when neither side wants to say what really happened? Nobody is going to walk into the debrief and say "I shot that guy at this time and this range with this missile,"¯ because they are basically giving away their capabilities. There are a couple of ways to deal with this, one of which is to not relay any of the shot information, but to merely say "that guy is dead at this time".¯ In that situation, no information (other than the f-pole) is released to the other side. However, astute people on the other side can extrapolate the data and figure out approximately when the shot was fired and can have a pretty good idea as to the performance of the missile. The other thing you can do is to establish a theoretical missile, with a nominal range to be used by both sides. This levels the playing field and rewards the side which executes better, rather than the side with the longer range missiles.

Detailed assessments that would normally take place to validate shots can't/won't happen in an exercise like this, therefore the overall results are not really accurate. However, as you say, they most certainly will debrief to get some results regardless of the potential inaccuracies. How valid the results are depends on how the exercise was planned.

As you can see, the results of these exercises (especially those released to the public) are quite likely not accurate. And, for one side or the other to claim victory in one of these exercises is either dishonest or just plain ignorance. Normally, the results are released as a series of politically correct statements such as those we've seen by the authorities after Cope India. Both sides are happy, they learned a lot, and can't wait to do it again. 

It should be noted that these types of exercises are planned many months in advance. A key part of the training syllabus is to agree on the types of scenarios to be performed during initial planning. 

Most of the learning experience occurs on the ground, not in the air. The evolution from Air Tasking Order to Mission Planning/C3I/Asset Coordination to Aircraft Generation is where air battles are won or lost. The mechanics of flying airplanes and shooting off ordnance is icing on the cake. 

I'm certainly not trying to stifle the spirited debate that goes on here. It's fun reading the arguments for and against various aircraft, however, be careful when you're quoting the results of some exercise when making your point!

I'm only saying that without details, all of this, "my airplane kicked your airplane's butt" is entertaining, but silly. One valuable part of the exercise is simply watching how the other side operates, what kind of tactics they use (they may have been "modified" along with the weapons), how they talk on the radio, etc. Obviously, the technology represented by the Su-30s is of great interest to the USAF also.

A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says: 

 
 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 8:10:58 PM
gf , you already posted that stuff on different sites that I know of .
Thank you again but you didn 't have too , I know what it is all about .
Back to square one for you gf ...
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       3/21/2009 8:14:07 PM

gf , thank you for calling me "Fred" again . I know what I 'm talking about my friend .

 

Cheers .
you need to change the way you deliver your  message then, as for me, I only see a statement that ignores what Red Flag is about.  There are no winners in a Red Flag event,  it is designed to stress forces to proscribed training sceanrios to evaluate actions/reactions and to test doctrine as well as pilot behaviour under stressful circumstances.  It's not a free will exercise per se, but is governed within boundaries so as to force a course of action and to generate a response.
 
In RAAF's case Blue Force at Pitch Black exercises resulted in that force continually decaying (dead means dead) with Red Force regenerating.  The reason being that Blue Force is then loaded up and stressed with each passing day of the exercise.  Red Flag does a similar thing in some instances but at battlerspace level on a significantly larger scale.  There are no "winners" and platforms can't be assessed as "winning" because the outcomes are designed to force event and behavioural changes in play.
  
Your comment as such, misrepresents the aims and actual outcomes as well as purpose of these events.



 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 8:17:34 PM
Why when the K-Eagles or Vips Blk50s are doing great at RedFlag , it is because they are great planes but when the Rafale does great at RedFlag , it is because the sh*t french jet had some AWACs and some gently Agressors ???
 
And you dare say that I am Patriotic ? So , what the hell are you ???
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 8:23:56 PM
gf :
""I only see a statement that ignores what Red Flag is about.  There are no winners in a Red Flag event,  it is designed to stress forces to proscribed training sceanrios to evaluate actions/reactions and to test doctrine as well as pilot behaviour under stressful circumstances.""
 
I know for GOD SAKE !!! Do you remember who you are talking to gf ?
The French always did good at RedFlag and the last one proved Rafale 's efficiency . Behind the aircraft , there is the AirForce involved and its tactics and who would actually dare to say that the French don 't have what it takes to do as good as they should and better ? ANYONE ???
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       3/21/2009 8:30:19 PM
The French always did good at RedFlag and the last one proved Rafale 's efficiency . Behind the aircraft , there is the AirForce involved and its tactics and who would actually dare to say that the French don 't have what it takes to do as good as they should and better ? ANYONE ???


where in any of my posts on this have I questioned French operational competence and capability?

 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 8:37:22 PM
You ' ve never questioned the AdA 's ability gf , that 's true . So please , try to understand what Rafale did at RedFlag , think about it twice (or more) and you 'll see that you don 't have anything to say gf ;-)
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       3/21/2009 9:13:09 PM
More I think about it , more I think that France did extremely well with the Rafale ...
We have an aircraft superior to any F-teen , Sukhoi or Mig or any other aircraft from any European manufacturer . It can be used on Land and at Sea , it can replace all we have in our actual inventory and it is not even finished !
It only cost 56 millions Euros for the latest version while we didn 't get a single sale abroad !
 
France did very well (as usual) to build a Fighter on Her own . Besides running CAPs over England , the Typhoon is nowhere to be seen on any theater and is not even participating at any European exercise yet , same for Gripen .
 
England is for now relying on obsolete aircraft carriers and obsolete Navy Fighters while the MN has the CdG with Rafale F2s and soon F3s . The FAF is the strongest AirForce in Europe and we have so many airbases around the World that we can hold our ground against anybody short of the USA . This is good enough to us and we still are the 5th Power in this World and our independant Nuclear fire can prove my case .
 
Cheers .
 
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