Rafale Thread

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Phaid 3/20/2009 2:41:03 PM

Also, regarding all of the current nonsense about the "OSF nouvelle generation"

Yes, SwissOptic is involved, to the extent that they have been sourced as a supplier for some of the optical components. The fact that France is trying to sell the Rafale to Switzerland played more of a role in that than any specific technical capabilities.

The new OSF will still not have an IR channel. The new OSF that is to be backfitted into the current production F3s is TV-only.

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Phaid 3/20/2009 3:32:03 PM

Btw , here is a picture from the last RedFlag ::

h*tp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9484/080808redflag3.jpg

Check the nose cone size . Is the RBE2 as small as some internet addicts seem to think it is ?

Why, yes. Yes it is:

Look where the OSF is. You can clearly see the nose cone in front of that. Compare that to the F-16's nose and you clearly see that the F-16's aperture is wider than the Rafale's. As I stated before, Rafale's radar is circular with an array diameter of 550mm. The F-16's nose is elliptical with max dimensions of 740 x 480 mm. That works out to an area of of 0.238 m² for the Rafale versus 0.279 m² for the F-16. Compared to an area of about 0.385 m² for the F/A-18 and Typhoon, 0.5 m² for the F-35, and 0.785 m² for the F-22 and F-15.

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leroy 3/20/2009 3:51:29 PM

Once again... exposed rivets and seams everywhere...

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HERALD1357 Quick reply 3/20/2009 4:13:51 PM

Ok ignoring BW?s commentary, can someone tell me how much of a concern mach cone or any shockwaves propagating form a supersonic target is for counter detection from a IRST? I?ve heard some folks mention cone stagnation produces a fairly large IR signature but I?m not up to snuff on the topic (or how truly effective IRST really are for that matter)

Thx

That depends on overall background contrast as the amount of excitation (HEAT) as the aircraft heats (kinetic energy imparted) to the air by its generated shockwave. Its a physical effect as the standing shockwave causes its own friction event interface air on air [or even SOUND] (acts like a solid). But then as with the aircraft heating up itself as an object, DISTANCE and local obscuration effects degrade the detector's ability to see the event as a heat source or to count it by sampling, or see it move across a "static" background..

Sorry but that is as simple as I can explain it.

Herald

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Softwar 3/20/2009 4:16:30 PM

Damn - Herald - even I understood that.

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Bluewings12 3/20/2009 9:09:36 PM

DA :

""you cannot possibly be arguing in good faith that an IRST is going to be an acceptable replacement for a radar""

I 've never said that DA and one would be foolish to say so . I only talked about the IRST as a secondary means , do you remember ? What I am saying (and always said) is the French have one of the best Optronic technology around and we field very good devices , it doesn 'y do any harm at the contrary . It is indeed true that the OSF-NG will not have the IR capability as Phaid pointed rightly , the reasons are three fold (I already talked about it in another thread) :

- the funding has not been allocated

- the IR MICA can be used as a very decent IRST

- the next gen TV cam is excellent (daylight)

DA , I posted the SAGEM link as an exemple , not as a reference . The first gen OSF has 3 times that range and it is a known fact . Anyway , I really hope that the IR channel will be back by 2015 because the Rafale needs it to counter LO aircrafts .

By LO aircrafts , I mean enemy LO aircrafts and I don 't know any . It is not 2moro that the USA and France will fight each other . This is something you all tend to forget , France 's goal is not build a better aircraft than the USA (we couln 't) but to counter any possible actual and planed enemy aircrafts . Rafale has been build for and while it is still lacking it can do the job better than any other aircraft in Europe . Beside the M2000 and the Europeans F-16s , no other aircraft than Rafale had such a Operational background in the recent years . Gripen and Typhoon don 't even participate yet at any meaningfull European excercise and they have an absolute zero experience in warfare , and the Europeans F-35s are nowhere to be seen yet and for quiet some time ...

The F-22 could smack the Rafale BVR , so what ? Is the F-22 Russian , Iranian , Pakistani or North-Korean ???

Are the USA going to sale them the Raptor ???

I have never said that the Rafale was the best aircraft there is , never . But France on Her own made a better aircraft than the Eurofighter (it doesn 't come as a surprise) , France made it muck quicker and the result is a very effective aircraft who already has 8 years of operations . I am not here to bash the Typhoon as I like it and it is the same with the Gripen , it is surely the best little combo around .

I am only surprised when people try to lecture me on how the latest SHs or Viper Blk52s (or the F-15K) could be superior to the Rafale . These people are grossly underestimating the Rafale (or they are biased and /or anti-french) . To them I will ask a simple question : Which aircraft is more likely to complete its mission and to come back alive in an heavily defended airspace ?

Please , explain your case if you have one and I will be happy to debate . Just keep in mind what happened in the last RedFlag .

Phaid :

""Well, BW is completely mischaracterizing the UAE situation here""

No I did not . In fact I repeated what the paper said with agrain of salt . The difference is that I bet my right hand that France will sign the deal the UAE is asking , it would be madness for us to refuse . Futur will tell if I 'm right or wrong .

Cheers .

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leroy 3/21/2009 5:53:27 AM

"- the IR MICA can be used as a very decent IRST"

No, it can't.

" Anyway , I really hope that the IR channel will be back by 2015 because the Rafale needs it to counter LO aircrafts ."

Ah yes, back to the stupidity about using an IRST to "counter" stealth aircraft.

" the Europeans F-35s are nowhere to be seen yet and for quiet some time ... "

The UK will be getting their first F-35 in 2011. They won't be in full service for a few years after that, but the F-35 will be in Europe before you know it.

"But France on Her own made a better aircraft than the Eurofighter (it doesn 't come as a surprise) , France made it muck quicker and the result is a very effective aircraft who already has 8 years of operations ."

Better? Depends a lot on what you want to do with it. Land it on a carrier? Then the Rafale is the plane you want. If you are looking for a pure interceptor then you want the Eurofighter.

"I am only surprised when people try to lecture me on how the latest SHs or Viper Blk52s (or the F-15K) could be superior to the Rafale . These people are grossly underestimating the Rafale (or they are biased and /or anti-french) . To them I will ask a simple question : Which aircraft is more likely to complete its mission and to come back alive in an heavily defended airspace ? "

You are an idiot bluewings. Only an idiot would still be looking at that problem from a platform-centric perspective after all the explanation we have given you.

Not only is this not a platform-centric question, but both the F-16, Superhornet and F-15 offer some pretty impressive capabilities, many of which the Rafale can not offer. None of these aircraft are deficient in the scenario you described.

I would continue, but why? I know your response is going to be nothing but fanboy idiocy.

"Please , explain your case if you have one and I will be happy to debate . Just keep in mind what happened in the last RedFlag ."

What happened? lol

You mean Rafales acting as one small part of a massive simulated airwar against an imaginary opponent were able to accomplish their mission with huge amounts of support?

For the 100th time kid, Redflag is not some kind of aerial jousting match where various airforces and planes compete with each other to win a big trophy. Nobody has ever "won" Redflag.

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DarthAmerica 3/21/2009 12:04:36 PM

Please , explain your case if you have one and I will be happy to debate . Just keep in mind what happened in the last RedFlag .

Well BW you are not listening to some very glaring shortcomings that has seen all three of the platforms you mention "beat" the Rafale and enter service in other countries in meaningful numbers including their own. The Rafale is still in a long and painful development to live up to capabilities claimed it would have over a decade ago. In terms of platform flexibility and cost the Rafale isn't even in the same class with any of those aircraft. What performance parameter are you trying to debate? All three cost less. All three are offered as complete weapons systems will in place logistics. All three carry longer ranged superior BVR weapon and have more advanced radars that can actually exploit the range. So even if you want to argue that MICA is an equivalent, and I'll give you that so as to avoid arguing over minor issues, the Rafale can't exploit that range. READ THIS:

Featuring a fixed array with an agile beam that scans near the speed of light, the AESA will, for the first time, enable aircrews to conduct simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface operations with independent dual-cockpit operation. In air-to-air mode, the radar allows targets to be engaged at very long ranges, permitting weapons launch at maximum range and enhancing warfighter survivability and lethality. The system also offers high-resolution ground mapping at long standoff ranges for air-to-surface tracking.

"The AESA-equipped Super Hornet represents a quantum leap in operational technology and capability," said Chris Chadwick, Boeing vice president for F/A-18 programs. "With the integration of the APG-79 radar, the Super Hornet today has unsurpassed precision strike capability and situational awareness."

h*tp://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q2/nr_050421m.html

The Super Hornet and now F-15 can be had in LO configurations that are leaps and bounds ahead of the Rafale. Seriously, what are you talking about?

The answer to your single question is that it is not how wars are fought. None of these planes is going to fly into harms way alone. They will fight in a system. In the case of the Rafale, France can't even put a wing of them up. In other words, you have no room for any attrition. And unless you are defending France proper, at best you can only send a dozen or so on a deployment. Vipers, Eagles and SuperHornets can MASS. Thats a fundamental principle of war. Moreover, losses can be replaced. Rafales can't do that. When you look at this from a warfighters point of view, the Rafale as a program is severely lacking.

And why on Earth are you mentioning Red Flag? We have discussed this over and over at length. The intent of Red Flag is not to determine platform superiority. Its a training event for pilots and ground personnel. Scripted DACT scenarios are not representative of any platform superiority and it's perhaps the most juvanille case one can make in support. You know that. READ THIS:

ht*p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissimilar_air_combat_training

It's got nothing to do with platform superiority. If that was the case, explain Mig-17's vs F-4s with the Mig coming out on top more often than was comfortable for the USA? These points are very clear BW. Rafale is a decent pane but as a program it sucks.

-DA

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HERALD1357 I let it slide because I wanted too but now my dander is up, because of your fascist comments on matters you frankly are clueless discussing. 3/21/2009 12:25:28 PM

Something else I forgot (not what I mentioned I forgot)... JP and Darth seem to lack knowledge outside their fields and seem to be going out on limbs, JP seems more aware of it (however he too is quite patriotic).

The only people commenting outside their area on the issue of touchscreens would be Softwar and Herald who have never used any of the devices under discussion in the kinds of environments and conditions we are discussing. If you have been in the Military since about the last 5 years, you probably understand why Herald and Softwars assertions were inaccurate. If not then that explains a lot.

-DA

I cut the crap and got to the point, staff sergeant.

Herald

YOU DIDN'T HAVE A POINT, CIVILIAN. You were wrong as is evident by the facts and the text typed by YOU. BTW, I'm proud to be an NCO so don't think at all your calling me Staff Sergeant in any way bothers me. I've been commissioned before, held Company/Troop Command, all Staff Positions and to this day the U.S. Army officer recruiters are hounding me to go back to the "Dark Side". But of all of that, the best job I ever had was when reenlisted, took a leave of absence from my civilian employer, resigned my commission volunteered to go to Iraq as an infantry squad leader. You should try it yourself. It would be a humbling experience. It's ashame you can't shed your ego long enough to learn things from people WHO DO what you read on google.

-DA

I've worked alongside idiots like you. Fortunately for the US, there aren';t many of you Captain Cluelessess to plague us When it comes to tech, junior, I dare say I've forgotten more than you've ever learned.

When it comes to physics, you aren't even in my league.

Park the ego, junior and stick to what you know (land warfare, some helo systems, and limited to small unit tactics), which ain't much.

Herald

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DarthAmerica 3/21/2009 12:46:30 PM

NO YOU HAVEN'T AND NOW I'M GOING TO EXPOSE YOU FOR WHAT YOU ARE. PEOPLE IN DEFENSE OR THE DEFENSE INDUSTRY OF ANY IMPORTANCE DO NOT BEHAVE WITH THE KIND OF ARROGANT BEHAVIOR YOU DO. I KNOW THAT BECAUSE UNLIKE YOU, I'VE WORKED WITH THE BEST AND CURRENTLY WORK WITH THE BEST. DISAGREEMENTS ARE CORDIAL AND PROFESSIONAL AND DISCUSSED ON MERIT. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO OR WHAT YOU ARE TALKING TO.

When it comes to physics, you aren't even in my league.

HERALD, BASED ON THE MISTAKES I'VE SEEN YOU MAKE, PLEASE. I COULD TEACH PHYSICS TO YOU. BUT I WONT WASTE MY TIME ON SOMEONE SO UNWILLING TO DEMONSTRATE SOME FORM OF RESPECT. IF YOU ARE UPSET I VOTED FOR OBAMA, GO CALL YOU MOTHER, CRY ON HER SHOULDER AND GET OVER IT. BUT LEARN TO SEPARATE YOUR IDIOTIC AND UTTERLY STUPID PERSONAL GRIPES AND POLITICAL BELIEFS FROM THIS BOARD. THIS IS ANOTHER INDICATION THAT YOU HAVE DONE VERY LITTLE IN YOUR LIFE. PEOPLE WITH EXPERIENCE, THE KIND OF GLOBAL EXPERIENCE I SPEAK OF, NO HOW TO COEXIST PEACEFULLY AT THE PEER LEVEL IN SPITE OF DIFFERENCES. YOU ARE BEHAVING LIKE A FRESHMEN ENGINEERING STUDENT EXCITED BECAUSE YOU GOT YOUR FIRST A+ ON A TEST. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. SO I DON'T NEED TO ASSERT AND INSULT THE ENTIRE BOARD IN A STUPID ATTEMPT TO VALIDATE MYSELF.

Park the ego, junior and stick to what you know (land warfare, some helo systems, and limited to small unit tactics), which ain't much.

CONSIDERING YOU DON'T KNOW ANY OF IT, PERHAPS YOU SHOULD TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE. THE FOLLOWING ARE SUMMARIES OF GLARING MISTAKES FROM YOUR OWN POST MR EXPERT.

1. DIDNT KNOW TOUCH SCREENS WERE IN FIGHTERS.

2. DIDN'T KNOW TOUCH SCREENS ARE ALL OVER THE BATTLEFIELD.

3. THINKS BORDER PATROL AGENTS ARE PREPARED TO EXECUTE BATTLE DRILLS AGAINST MEXICAN INFANTRY UNITS AND COMMANDOES.

4. DIDNT KNOW THAT THE USA DOESNT USE BASRA AS A LOGISTICS NODE.

5. THOUGHT THE USA AND IRAN WOULD BE AT WAR AND GOT CAUGHT BY COMPLETE SURPRISE WHEN THE NIE CAME OUT TELLING YOU WHAT I SAID.

6. DIDN'T REALIZE THAT IRAN WAS BEING PREPARED TO SERVE AS A LOGISTICS HUB FOR OEF.

I CAN GO ON AND ON HERALD. MEANWHILE, ALL YOU CAN SAY IS YOU DISAGREE WITH MY POLITICAL BELIEFS. WOOPTY-FERKIN-DOO!!! GUESS YOU NEVER BEEN OUTSIDE YOUR MOTHERS BASEMENT SO THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE HAD TO DEAL PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS.

Herald

-DA

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HERALD1357 BULL. 3/21/2009 1:03:00 PM

Touchscreens were in the Rafale, I said why they were not the end all and be all as a systems choice. That you could not understand what I said proves you are incompetent.

What physics mistake? Show it.

I use touch screens daily in my work-so I know how they are used and what their limits are.

I deal with liars and punks every day, Darth. I usually ignore them. Of the categories though you fit both and you irrita6ted me with your stupidity.

I didn't know you were also a psychotic, though. Nice to see the evidence displayed for all to see.

Get professional help.

Herald

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DarthAmerica 3/21/2009 1:19:07 PM

Touchscreens were in the Rafale, I said why they were not the end all and be all as a systems choice. That you could not understand what I said proves you are incompetent.

I NEVER DID EITHER. I MERELY POINTED OUT THERE UTILITY AND MY EXPERIENCE WITH THEM AND YOU ACTED LIKE A SCORNED HIGHSCHOOL GIRL WITH YOUR INSULTING UNECESSARY REPLY WHICH STARTED THE MOST RECENT EPISODE BY YOU.

What physics mistake? Show it.

ASKED AND ANSWERED WHEN YOU SUGGESTED SUCH SCREENS WHERE IMPRACTICAL IN A FIGHTER AND MADE THAT STUPID ANALOGY ABOUT USING THEM IN A ROLLERCOASTER BECAUSE YOU WERE NOT AWARE THAT GUYS ARE USING THEM RIGHT NOW UNDER CONDITIONS FAR MORE EXTREME THAN ANY ROLLERCOASTER.

I use touch screens daily in my work-so I know how they are used and what their limits are.

LIAR

I deal with liars and punks every day, Darth. I usually ignore them. Of the categories though you fit both and you irrita6ted me with your stupidity.

WHATEVER, NO REPUTABLE COMPANY WOULD HIRE A PERSON WHO BEHAVES AS ARROGANTLY AS YOU DO. AT LEAST NOT ABOVE JUNIOR EMPLOYEE BECAUSE THAT WOULD REQUIRE SOME FORM OF DISCRESSION AND TACT. YOU LACK THAT QUITE OBVIOUSLY. THAT A PERSON COULD ACTUALLY BE IRRITATED BY SOMETHING WRITTEN ONLINE BY A PERSON HE DOESN'T KNOW IS ALSO TELLING ABOUT LEVEL OF MATURITY.

I didn't know you were also a psychotic, though. Nice to see the evidence displayed for all to see.

Get professional help.

Herald

YOU GROW UP AND TRY TO BE IN THE CLASS OF POSTERS HERE WHO DON'T HAVE TO SHOW THEIR ARSE TO THE WORLD WITH EVERY DISAGREEMENT. THERE ARE PLANTY OF PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD WHO HAVE BEEN RIGHT ABOUT SOMETHING BUT ACTUALLY MANAGED TO CONVEY THEIR MESSAGE IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T REDUCE THE FORUM TO A BUNCH OF NAME CALLING AND CHILDSPLAY. YOU HAVE SINGLEHANDEDLY DESTROYED THE ENTIRE EXPERIENCE OF THIS WEBSITE AND NO ONE WILL DENY THAT. IVE POSTED HERE FOR YEARS. THIS ANTI-FRENCH THING YOU HAVE WITH BW MIGHT BE NEW TO YOU, BUT 'VE DEBATED HIM MANY DOZENS OF TIMES AND I NEVER HAD TO GET AS NASTY AND VITRIOLIC AS YOU DO TO MAKE MY POINT. YOU ARE LUCKY ANYBODY EVEN POST WITH YOU AT ALL.

-DA

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DarthAmerica EXAMPLE OF A COMPLETELY UNECESSARY FLAME POST FROM HERALD... 3/21/2009 1:24:36 PM

HERALD1357 BUTT OUT. 3/16/2009 7:07:26 PM

Try touching a touch screen in a shove force situation, buffoon. (pilots will understand this, you won't)

ROTFLMAOWIPAYID.

One day you will get it, but not today.

Engineers stick to what works.

Herald.

We do use touch sensitive displays on some of our weapons systems and they work well. Very well actually. Just an FYI

-DA

Try a touch screen in a roller coaster, Darth. You don't know what you are talking about.

Herald

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I WASN'T AT ALL INSULTING YOU, MERELY INFORMING THOSE WHO MAY NOT KNOW, THAT WE DO USE TOUCH SCREENS IN ALL KINDS OF COMBAT VEHICLES. THATS IT. YOU RESPONDED LIKE A COMPLETE A-HOLE. STOP PICKING FIGHTS FOR NO REASON ON THE BOARDS. YOU ARE BEHAVING LIKE A CHILD.

-DA

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VelocityVector 3/21/2009 3:10:46 PM

I tip my hat to whomever scripted these venomous exchanges. I'm in LA meeting with studio mgmt around Memorial Day, note, and believe I could pitch your talent for the next Transformers or similar script. Consider.

v^2

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HERALD1357 3/21/2009 5:14:29 PM

v^2

Well actually V^2.......

As for you, Darth, I see that is your physics example? :rotflmaoayid.

There is no more than 1.7 gees positive load and no more than 1.5 gees negative load in that film clip. I can even tell you the positive and negative acceleration loads and when they occur.

Can you?

I can also tell you that you will NOT be able to hit a 1/2 inch square on a touchscreen without your finger skittering off the hot spot under those ridiculously small acceleration loads.

Arrogance can only work for you; if you can back it up, junior.

Herald

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