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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with:

1 - no export sales
2 - no laser designator
3 - no AESA
4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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DarthAmerica       3/18/2009 12:12:50 PM

Phaid :


""Again, you make this ridiculous assumption that only the Rafale has these HOTAS features. ""


 

Huh ??? I never said that , I only said that the Rafale has probably the best HOTAS system around , which is different .

 

Cheers .




BW,
 
Not that I agree or disagree, I DON'T KNOW, but how are you quantifying that statement? In other words, what parametric data are you using to make that assertion?
 
 
Regards
DA
 
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cwDeici       3/18/2009 2:49:43 PM
I'm no angel myself, but it's a bit sad to see people digging into each other like this.
Like I will say at the end, some people know a lot and some people don't, but everyone is a fool to the Lord.
Now on tack:

However, open or defensive hostility do not change basic facts. Using my strong basic intelligence, common sense and intuition its quite easy to tell who is right in the vast bulk of these arguments.
 
JP Bergerac and especially Darth America are probably telling the truth, they seem to know complicated things to a degree which would be hard to fake. Herald seems to be an expert (so much to the point that when I fooled around on these forums regarding very soft issues such as politics and values that he didn't even reply (first of all those subjects are quite subjective, second of all expertise usually doesn't bother with arguments that are plain especially if they are self-aware of their amateur nature) in his fields. Experts can sometimes be wrong, but they usually aren't. Perhaps he lacks real-life experience in the cockpit, flying, but it is elementary to know that most of his knowledge is not the kind of paper that can be disproven anymore. Bluewings assertions that the different experts here are paper-pushers shows a lack of sufficient intelligence to intuit what kind of 'paper-jobs' do not require an accurate theoretical view of reality.
 
Furthermore BW corrects himself... you do not even know that your airforce modified on some pods on your fighter. You're obviously highly patriotic and deluded about the capabilities of world fighters. Google searches work great for an education in simple fields and can give an accurate overview on complicated subjects if you have the wisdom to tell the enormous amounts of chaff from the wheat (I can't either if there's no wheat present, but I'm adept at indetifying who is most on their subject matter). You also follow basic ways of argueing that ignores the points others made or making accusations that are off-base because you expect them to write it again or didn't understand what they said. Political clout aside, the main motivation to buying something really expensive is VALUE. I'm surprised you think you know better
And it's not all about price either. I'm sure plenty of people would buy a few Rafales just to have a private look at them if they had one fifth of the stuff you claim.
France has made a misstep and you can't accept it but live on in your delusions, and thus you can't increase your knowledge or wisdom.
You even post the wrong pictures... and this is still relevant... but your English isn't too good. This will have an effect on your comprehension, and if you were truly able to debate with Herald on knowledge - his character aside (I make no comment, he might have savaged me in one of the threads I didn't return too ^^, not that I don't deserve any savaging at all, but I think I'm quite nice by human standards most of the time) that is specific to his professional levels of expertise then you at least need enough intelligence and wisdom to counter soome of his MASSIVE advantage... and language skills are one of many indicators as to intelligence (I'm not saying you're dumb, I hope you're smart, but I believe you are of below average intelligence... people around normal would at least have given in to some of the more plain anti-Rafale arguments... the only thing I've seen you give in to is price, so maybe you're smarter than you seem.). You make SO many EXCUSES... you seem to NEVER learn unless it's from a RAFALE LOVER telling you about the stuff that has thankfully been updated. It doesn't seem like you have much wisdom either as thus, as another form of intelligence. Your opponents call you stuff which is probably sinful and mean, but some of what they say is right. You call people stuff too, and some of what you say about their character may be right but I'm confident in sensing that you're off-base more than 95% of the time and imprecise the rest.
 
France is screwed thanks to De Gaulle. You shouldn't have left NATO in the first place. You should have forgotten your pride once you lost your colonies (I would have stuck it out in Algeria but I don't know about the subject). Or best of all, you should've stuck it out in Algeria and gotten NATO involved and stayed within their beautiful, beautiful network. This French confirmation bias I see in most French posters here make me wonder if it would really be better if you had lost your dreams and cunning.
You'll have to excuse the distraction, I have ADHD and some other else stuff.
 
You're a fanboy BW, no harm in that except that you're picking fights that will be nasty with a broken toothpick against people wielding guns. I suggest you spend something more constructive with your time. You don't seem very dumb, just dumb, extremely biased/clouded on topics of love with a lack of intution, wisdom and hard or professional knowledge on the matter or the contacts, tools and knowledge foundation in order to understand subjects that could well be labeled 'rocket science'.
 
As for character I don't know anything about you except you can get riled up like most everyone here.
 
 
Felt I should write something since I read for over one hour. You'll probably feel like crying to some conscious degree if you have the insight under fire to comprehend at least some of what I said to be true.
 
Don't worry, life is big and everyone is a fool.
 
 
I forgot what else I was going to say.
I'm gonna watch some anime.
 
God Bless you all and I hope I wasn't too harsh/frank.
 
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cwDeici       3/18/2009 2:51:12 PM
Something else I forgot (not what I mentioned I forgot)... JP and Darth seem to lack knowledge outside their fields and seem to be going out on limbs, JP seems more aware of it (however he too is quite patriotic).
 
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cwDeici       3/18/2009 2:52:49 PM
Well, I guess Herald and some other experts (but some do) wouldn't reply on soft issues or especially when I'm messing around on soft issues. Most of them seem to be largely concerned with technical arguments. 
 
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cwDeici       3/18/2009 3:02:33 PM
About the Rafale:
 
From what I've read on it (just a few hours of worth): The R&D was done wrong so it is a suboptimal, expensive half-decent fighter at best with a few great characteristics... AT BEST. I'm not sure but maybe it could be a decent fighter... IF IT HAD THE HORDE OF USEFUL UPGRADES IT DOESN'T HAVE PROPERLY, YET OR AT ALL.
 
The Rafale might have AESA, inbuilt laser designator, this and that and all that SOME DAY... but it DOES NOT and will not properly for some time (even the half-baked solutions may not arrive) or never.
 
Therefore it is crap.
 
Any incomplete weapon can only counted to a fraction of AS IS. That's why bombing factories matters, to illustrate a simple point.
 
You can hold the Rafale up to what seems to be a half-decent standard, though Herald and others might still attack it, perhaps justly... if it had its upgrades and accessories... but it doesn't.
 
I'd be a rich man if I had a well-paying job and the wages in advance.
 
It just doesn't fly... no pun or physical allegory intended.
 
You can't... go on about how the Rafale is a great plane 'if only'.
 
R&D and aquisitions is a part of the game.
 
You can claim to have a good this and a good that, but not a good whole except as it be relevant theoretically... and those - while they feel unfair because of what could be - are HUGE disclaimers.
 
I guess you could go on about your theoretical papers, but that's just paperwork like you accuse them of.
Sure, paperwork is real enough on many occasations, but it has to be transferred to reality.
And even then the Rafale would be an agglutination of lumped-on accessories and built-in mistakes
 
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cwDeici       3/18/2009 3:09:29 PM
To correct the inaccuracies of philosophical statements:
 
You have a half-decent warplane, but it fails to complete.
 
 
 
...
And stop saying it's pretty, huh? It might be true to most, but it's so desperate. I think the Raptor is pretty, but noone ever goes on about that...
 
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cwDeici       3/18/2009 3:16:25 PM
Rather, saying the Rafale is pretty indicates a high likelihood of bias/warm feelings for it.
And it's rather low, intellectually, to stoop to another country's financial crisis to help blame one's own difficulties.
 
The most backwards Islamic and African countries are the ones that blame others the most. They have the most awful conspiracy theories.
 
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gf0012-aust    Herald   3/18/2009 4:08:15 PM
not sure whether the email acct I have is working (or whether you've passed out!).  I'm offsite for a week so can't check your email from work.  send me an email to bounce dot rubbish at gmail dot com and I'll set up a filter so that you don't get nuked and sent to the spam bin
 
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DarthAmerica       3/18/2009 4:40:10 PM

Something else I forgot (not what I mentioned I forgot)... JP and Darth seem to lack knowledge outside their fields and seem to be going out on limbs, JP seems more aware of it (however he too is quite patriotic).

The only people commenting outside their area on the issue of touchscreens would be Softwar and Herald who have never used any of the devices under discussion in the kinds of environments and conditions we are discussing. If you have been in the Military since about the last 5 years, you probably understand why Herald and Softwars assertions were inaccurate. If not then that explains a lot.
 
-DA
 
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Beazz    cwDeici   3/18/2009 6:12:48 PM
One question....
 
Where do they sell the drugs you take?
 
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Bluewings12       3/18/2009 7:15:16 PM
cwDeici is a strange character ... The fact is I agree with him about 50% of what he said .
cwDeici , you shouldn 't play the "I can read you" game . As you said , my english is far to be perfect but I can make myself understandable well enough . Surely , I may miss some stuff here and there and I could be sometimes hard to understand but I try . Let me just say that if my english was better , my posts would also be better . Is your French as good or better than my English ?
Unlike you , I will no go personal and not try to talk BS about who you could be . You have an excellent english but you come here like a pseudo referee , which is a bit of a light start regarding the thread at hand . Since it seems that you have so much to say about me , please carry on .
It comes as a surprise to me that I have a very poor wisdom and an average intelligence . I always tried to run my life like a Swiss clock and my IQ is 145 . Before to be in the Forces , people told me to be the Captain in my soccer team , then they asked me if I was ok to take care of a 8 men Commando Team in Lebanon (twice) and now , I drive a 44tons Truck with a load worth 250.000 Euros through Europe . It seems that people tend to trust me ... But of course , they know who I am in real life , unlike you cwDeici .
Back to Rafale .
 
""The Rafale might have AESA, inbuilt laser designator, this and that and all that SOME DAY... but it DOES NOT and will not properly for some time (even the half-baked solutions may not arrive) or never.
Therefore it is crap.""
 
I like the "therefore it is crap" . Easy to say , harder to prove . Rafale as it is now is one of the most efficient stiker-fighter operational today , note that I did not say the best . As it is now , the FAF and the MN have an excellent platform and if you would read french and follow some french military sites (like the one from the St Dizier Rafale airbase) , you would see that the Pilots enjoy very much flying the Rafale and they mostly praise the beast . On the other hand , it is true that the Rafale is unfinished (I never said otherwise and I complain enough about it) but France is working slowly on it , note the "slowly" .

DA :
""Not that I agree or disagree, I DON'T KNOW, but how are you quantifying that statement? In other words, what parametric data are you using to make that assertion?""
Quote :
""Sur le Rafale, le concept "HOTAS" a été poussé à un niveau élevé : le pilote dispose sur le manche et sur la poignée de gaz d'un total de 37 commandes qui lui permettent, sans lâcher ni l'un ni l'autre, de commander tout le système d'armes, l'ensemble des capteurs et du pilote automatique.""
h*tp://www.defense.gouv.fr/marine/decouverte/equipements/aeronefs/rafale_m
JP Bergerac :
""HOTAS on Rafale has reached a level never seen before on French acft and we have probably reached the limit, both of room available on the stick & throttle and usability (34 HOTAS switches altogether, with several hundred multiplexed functions!)""
 
The Viper Blk-52 seems to have a 16 HOTAS , the SH 20 (22 ?) and I could not find anything on the Raptor stick so far . Any help welcome ...
 
gf :
""Explain to me why hot and cold thermal imaging is more important on a tank with a ballistic kill range effectively less than 1/8th that of a thermal on a combat aircraft where detection range is far more critical.""
 
The reasons are multiple :
-the waveband is different (3-5 um , 8-12 um , etc)
-the output power is different
-the resolutions are different
-etc 
 
Just to show you that I 'm not coming with empy pockets , here are some good pdf from SAGEM (their main facility is here , in Dijon) :
General IR imaging :
h*tp://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D717.pdf
 
2nd generation devices :
h*tp://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D973.pdf
 
3rd generation devices (obviously the most important):
h*tp://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D1236.pdf
 
They even give you the unofficial aquisition range , do you feel better gf ?
To respond to your question , you need a different waveband , different optics as well as a different technology to detect and  track a Tank at 6km or a airplane at 40km . We are talking green apples and red apples , same root but different tech .
The first OSF two-band (3-5µm et 8-12µm , Rafale F1s and few F2s) has been quoted with an enormous 100km range (check it , even on Wiki) . The gimble angle can be changed depends on the mission , detection (wide angle) or tracking (small angle) . During Search&Track , the OSF can spot hot "blobs" at 100km and start to track them straigh away . Why the F-22 does not have this hugely desirable capability ?
The OSF-NG is already in testing , all we need to know is will the French DGA buy it ?
 
(Back in a short while)
 
Cheers .
 

 
 
 
 
 

 
 

 
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Bluewings12       3/18/2009 7:50:09 PM
Since I don 't know who read or not the last link I posted , here is something interesting from it :
 
""The large matrix of the MATIS AP and its NETD of 35mK (at maximum integration time) provide unsurpassed picture quality with no compromise between situational awareness and range. With the continuous zoom, there is no loss of image during the change of field of view, which brings tracking capacity and comfort of use, whereas the three different speeds for zooming enable quick and precise adjustment of field of view. When using the minimum field of view, it has excellent boresight stability and a secondary image stabilization capacity, using gyrometric data from the host system (option). The advanced image processing features an anti-blooming function for missile launching applications.""

Notice the :
-unsurpassed picture quality with no compromise between situational awareness and range
-The advanced image processing features an anti-blooming function for missile launching applications.

Add to this SPECTRA , IR MICA and an advanced LRF and you have a deadly and perfectly stealthy BVR combo .
 
Cheers .
 
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HERALD1357    BULL.   3/18/2009 8:32:39 PM



Something else I forgot (not what I mentioned I forgot)... JP and Darth seem to lack knowledge outside their fields and seem to be going out on limbs, JP seems more aware of it (however he too is quite patriotic).





The only people commenting outside their area on the issue of touchscreens would be Softwar and Herald who have never used any of the devices under discussion in the kinds of environments and conditions we are discussing. If you have been in the Military since about the last 5 years, you probably understand why Herald and Softwars assertions were inaccurate. If not then that explains a lot.


 

-DA

I cut the crap and got to the point, staff sergeant.

Herald

 
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Bluewings12       3/18/2009 9:01:06 PM
The fact is that you don 't know what the point is , internet addict . The Staff Sargent is correct again .
I 'm not taking side with DA , I 'm just correcting Poseur3 .
 
Cheers .
 
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Bluewings12       3/18/2009 9:38:20 PM
To be honest , the SP posters are simply not up to date with what the French are doing . It is very clear to me and it must be even clearer to JP Bergerac .
Anyone here knows that France and Switzerland  are both working on the OSF-NG ? Do you know that SwissOptic is heavily involved too ? Do you also know that the UAE could share the founding ?
The OSF-NG will probably be available by 2012 and implemented on every Rafale F3 . If it 's the case , the AdA will not only be able to do what she does now ~stealthy firing at 40km with an excellent PK~ but increase that range to 60km .
As far as I know , no current Fighter as such capability , not even the latest F-XXs (they don 't even have the missile yet) .
 
Cheers .
 
 
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