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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with:

1 - no export sales
2 - no laser designator
3 - no AESA
4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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DarthAmerica       3/17/2009 2:22:27 PM

I'm still curious as to how flying US Army aircraft (choppers, some fixed wing) can be compared to flying a jet fighter over the speed of sound while pulling 8+ gs in at 30,000+ feet.  Call me what you will... but it would seem that DA's area of expertise is not applicable other than he has flown in airspace that could be occupied by fast movers at some point. 

 I didn't compare the flight characteristics, you did. However, you would learn much to research the physical demands of flying in helos. Having done so myself many times, I can tell you it is equally demanding if not more so. In fact, Helos flying much closer to the ground and doing NOE flight profiles, put tremendous physical burdens and can pull very high instantaneous G forces.  Again, here we go with Theory vs Practice. 

Clearly the two systems have two very different sets of requirements and specialities both inside and out.  They certainly do require two different skill sets, training and conditioning.  Nice that he is an instructor - one only hopes that he doesn't wash out candidates due to political leanings.  I can just see the Obama/Biden sticker on his Kiowa.

 Ah and here is the reason you fail. It is all of YOU who can't separate politics. If this was the DefTalk board, you would get a not fat warning from the Mods to leave your politics out of this. Some of you just can't get over the fact that I voted for Obama so much so that you fiil the board with silly flames anytime I post. GET OVER IT, HE WON. Move on.  I explained my reasons for my vote, you explained yours, more people saw it my way vs yours, Obama won. Accept it and vote again in 2012.

So DA- doing touch and goes off a carriers, hitting the three wire, being trained in the delivery of nuclear weapons, naval battlegroup defense and BVR air-to-air combat with radar homing missiles in your resume?

This is just pure strawman. When you have had a military career as long as mine, you actually do get exposure to a lot of things. Also, the DoD is very good at exposing officers and NCOs to varied career paths. Some of you CIVILIANS have a very low opinion of the men and women who serve to keep you safe. You should know we are VERY well educated, VERY experienced, most of us combat veterans and a lot of us who currently serve in the reserve components actually have engineering degrees and run our own private companies too. So do not think we are the conscript soldiers of the past. Things are very different. 

Softwar, Herald, you two are behaving like Hypocrites to insult Bluewings for his mistakes but then you make the EXACT same mistakes and wont admit it. On the issue of touch screens, you were wrong. Have a bit of moral integrity before you call out BW again and certainly before you try to confront me.
 
-DA
 
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DarthAmerica       3/17/2009 2:25:37 PM

Sure, in a dogfighting fighter, you would use controls on a HOTAS system, HMS or voice commands. But this is only a small part of the envelope and when in close proximity to the enemy. Otherwise, such as in a BVR scenario, it would be perfectly possible for a pilot to "touch" a spot on a moving map display, a red icon ect. and get information to navigate or begin an engagement.

 

That doesn't require a touch screen to accomplish.  Even the original CRT displays in the F-4 Phantom had navigable cursors that allowed selecting from multiple displayed objects.  Today's fighters use HOTAS switches for that rather than dials as the F-4 did.


 

This again illustrates why the whole touchscreen concept is really not that useful; the pilot can already accomplish these things without taking their hands off the controls, so the touch screen really doesn't add anything.


More Strawman, I didn't say it "required" a touch screen. I just informed you of there increasing use in these roles. It's a matter of design preference and in some cases it is the trend. With regard to adding things, that's your opinion. YOu haven't used any of these systems in battle. I have. It added for me. It added to my friends in the air above who used it. So you are making a statement in the dark with no relevant experience whatsoever on the ground or in the air.

-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       3/17/2009 2:28:51 PM


I just educated you. Now learn, confound it! You just have been taken to the woodshed..




Endit.


 

Herald


 
Silly. YOU END IT. You are the one who has been proven to be ignorant. You couldn't take a small child to a woodshed without the taste getting beat out of your mouth based you what you know about touchscreens. But keep it up, it's rather fun humbling you.

-DA 

 
 
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Softwar       3/17/2009 2:32:02 PM
Tha's ok Darth.  You don't have to explain anymore.  You are just an instructor - and being able to pull 8 gs while punching a button as compared to trying to stab your finger over a slick LCD touch screen makes a whole lot of sense to anyone - including Lockheed and Boeing.  You never have to pull 8 gs in your Kiowa because it would rip the blades off.
 
You are just a cocky chopper pilot whose bluster has just run the course.  Pegged. 
 
You just explained alot about how you feel, operate and how much you know.  So BVR is not your speciality - nor worrying about making a carrier trap at 3am in a thunderstorm.  I can also venture a guess that both avionics and electronics are not your forte either - except when you tell some poor E5 to repair the radio.
 
So your opinion on lots of things here fall to wayside and just because you deflect the argument is a clear sign that you are unqualified.
 
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Phaid       3/17/2009 2:33:01 PM
More Strawman, I didn't say it "required" a touch screen. I just informed you of there increasing use in these roles. It's a matter of design preference and in some cases it is the trend. With regard to adding things, that's your opinion. YOu haven't used any of these systems in battle. I have. It added for me. It added to my friends in the air above who used it. So you are making a statement in the dark with no relevant experience whatsoever on the ground or in the air.
 
You seriously need to calm down.  Clearly you are in a state of mind right now where you are unable to have an objective discussion without trying to drag personalities into it.
 
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DarthAmerica       3/17/2009 2:48:03 PM

Tha's ok Darth.  You don't have to explain anymore.  You are just an instructor - and being able to pull 8 gs while punching a button as compared to trying to stab your finger over a slick LCD touch screen makes a whole lot of sense to anyone - including Lockheed and Boeing.  You never have to pull 8 gs in your Kiowa because it would rip the blades off.

 

You are just a cocky chopper pilot whose bluster has just run the course.  Pegged. 

 

You just explained alot about how you feel, operate and how much you know.  So BVR is not your speciality - nor worrying about making a carrier trap at 3am in a thunderstorm.  I can also venture a guess that both avionics and electronics are not your forte either - except when you tell some poor E5 to repair the radio.

 

So your opinion on lots of things here fall to wayside and just because you deflect the argument is a clear sign that you are unqualified.

Wow, this is what you took from what I wrote? Go get a pair of glasses and a clue. I wont even bother to correct your misinterpretation. The only people unqualified are you, and Herald.

-DA 
 
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Softwar       3/17/2009 2:51:16 PM
OK - so you are not even a pilot - you are an instructor on electronics in the Army.
 
So you are even less qualified to comment here.
 
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DarthAmerica    Phaid reply   3/17/2009 2:53:34 PM

More Strawman, I didn't say it "required" a touch screen. I just informed you of there increasing use in these roles. It's a matter of design preference and in some cases it is the trend. With regard to adding things, that's your opinion. YOu haven't used any of these systems in battle. I have. It added for me. It added to my friends in the air above who used it. So you are making a statement in the dark with no relevant experience whatsoever on the ground or in the air.

 

You seriously need to calm down.  Clearly you are in a state of mind right now where you are unable to have an objective discussion without trying to drag personalities into it.

No I don't need to calm down. You need to read the thread and see who started bringing personalities into this. Am I the one calling people cretin? NO. Am I the one insulting people for their voting preference? NO. Besides, GF, I've been the only "objective" voice here. Moreover, I'm the only who's actually used this stuff between Softwar and Herald. Don't tell me to calm anything until you understand the nature of the discussion. The most harsh thing I've said here is that Herald and Softwar are ignorant about the role of "touchscreens".  In case anybody thinks ignorant is an insult, here is the definition...

 ht*p://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ignorant


-DA 
 
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DarthAmerica       3/17/2009 2:57:44 PM

OK - so you are not even a pilot - you are an instructor on electronics in the Army.

 

So you are even less qualified to comment here.


Wrong again. But I'll let you keep grabbing at straws. In any case, YOU HAVENT EVEN BEEN IN THEATER AND ARE NOT A SOLDIER/SAILOR/AIRMAN/MARINE. You said you are a software developer. So by your own silly hypocritical standards you least of all are qualified.

-DA
 
 
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Softwar       3/17/2009 3:07:40 PM
Darth - you made the admission - you have to live with it.  The fact that you keep dodging means even more to me.  Keep squirming - its a delight to watch.  You are unqualified and that settles it.  Herald has forgotten more about electronics than you have had hot dinners.
 
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DarthAmerica       3/17/2009 3:14:05 PM

Darth - you made the admission - you have to live with it.  The fact that you keep dodging means even more to me.  Keep squirming - its a delight to watch.  You are unqualified and that settles it.  Herald has forgotten more about electronics than you have had hot dinners.

NO, you made the assumption, and you were wrong. I told you I teach a block of instruction, as an additional duty assignment, on the FBCB2. A system you are quite obviously unfamiliar with. A system I have used in combat to communicate with U.S. Army pilots who are also using it while flying helicopters. That you misunderstood and got personal is a sign of your own unprofessionalism. I told you before, I don't hold grudges. I do crush inaccurate arguments however and Herald's, was simple. With regard to Herald electronic knowledge, feel free to think what you want about him and his education. I've got my EE too so I can appreciate the knowledge. Now, if you want to finish the discussion in a professional manner and not trip yourself up on peoples political views and assumptions about others, let me know. This issue on touch screen displays however is settled and quite conclusively in my favor.

-DA 
 
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VelocityVector       3/17/2009 3:30:10 PM

It is a very curious thing to witness educated professionals become mired in ad hominum attacks on a message board where nobody except the proprietor has anything of material value at stake.  I doubt that Secretary Gates will base decisions on the content posted here.  Consider please.

v^2
 
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Softwar    Charade   3/17/2009 3:35:43 PM

It is a very curious thing to witness educated professionals become mired in ad hominum attacks on a message board where nobody except the proprietor has anything of material value at stake.  I doubt that Secretary Gates will base decisions on the content posted here.  Consider please.


v^2




It is interesting to note that one can mascarade and give the appearance of a professional - and thus be exposed to be nothing more than a very opinionated electronics tech.
 
Of course, Gates is not going to pay much attention to the Rafale - as we have noted before - except when the French Navy pilots need a carrier to remain qualified on - while the CdG is fixed.  Nice plane but its not going to sell much.  A footnote in aviation history when compared to the Mirage.
 
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DarthAmerica       3/17/2009 3:43:28 PM




It is a very curious thing to witness educated professionals become mired in ad hominum attacks on a message board where nobody except the proprietor has anything of material value at stake.  I doubt that Secretary Gates will base decisions on the content posted here.  Consider please.




v^2


It is interesting to note that one can mascarade and give the appearance of a professional - and thus be exposed to be nothing more than a very opinionated electronics tech.

 YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE PRETENDING AND OBVIOUSLY STILL VERY OBVIOUSLY WRONG IN YOUR FAILED ATTEMPTS TO GUESS AT WHAT I DO.


Noted V^2, however it is Softwar and Herald who will not let rest that I voted a certain way. So instead of trying to understand they use insults to cover for ignorance because they are afraid to admit they don't know something. In any case, their ignorance has been proven and incidentally fixed by me with my post explaining the utility of the devices and technology in question. Whether they admit it or not is an integrity issue they need to work out themselves.

-DA 
 
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Softwar       3/17/2009 3:58:14 PM
No apologies necessary Darth - you are an Army instructor in electronics - that's a fine profession but certainly does not make you the member of the General staff you pump yourself up to be.  What - E5 maybe?  Okay - I know plenty of E5s they are great guys to work with.
 
So - let's turn back to Rafale here.  I understand that Kuwait says it might actually buy some along with a frigate.  Kinda fits considering the State dept. documents on Kuwait noted that they were being strong armed by certain UN Security Council members to make arms purchases in exchange for their kind support during certain crisis periods involving Iraq.
 
 
 
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