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Subject: Rafale Thread
Softwar    3/9/2009 9:47:25 AM
Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with:

1 - no export sales
2 - no laser designator
3 - no AESA
4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
 
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HERALD1357    You forgot.....   3/9/2009 12:04:36 PM

Started with hope that BW will limit his comments here instead of in every other Fighter thread. I'll start off with:

1 - no export sales
2 - no laser designator
3 - no AESA
4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter
-higher wing loading than the Typhoon. (326 kg/m^ vs 311 kg/m^2) under burden
-inferior engines to the Typhoon. (75,200 kilonewtons versus 92,000 kilonewtons)
-inferior radar to the Typhoon. (estimated effective detection threshhold range 100 kilometers interval detect for an RBE2 against an FA-18 sized object in still air clear day at 5000 meters versus CAPTOR 150-200 kilometers same object in a head-on pass same altitude.
-inferior acceleration to the Typhoon. (305 m/s vs. 320 m/s)
-better bomb truck as it has more potential A2G standoff ordnance to integrate-alas: if only it had the electronics to EXPLOIT it!.
-cursed with the MICA missile. Other aircraft carry Sidewinders, AMRAAMs, Pythons, Derbys, ASRAAM, IRIS-T, Archers, Alamos, even Adders. Even the RoCs and the Japanese fly with their own native stuff that is better.
 
I could go on but why bother.
 
Herald   
 


 
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JFKY    You People are looking at serious Purgatory Time...   3/9/2009 12:17:39 PM
It's not fair to bait Blue Wings, like this....really.
 
It's like starting a thread entitled, "The Brilliance of William Halsey" or "Why General Kulik is the REAL Hero of the Great Patriotic War."  It's just Herald Bait...you shouldn't do the same thing to BW.
 
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Phaid       3/9/2009 12:29:35 PM
5 - no HMS, putting it at a disadvantage against every other modern fighter in WVR
6 - no IR optics in current production models.  Obviously this can be overcome with a pod, but it's worth pointing out since the OSF is so often touted as a magical solution to all problems
7 - defensive jammer system based on three small electronically-steered antennas, which means serious angular limitations on its DJM emitters (since it is well known that beam-steering transmitters suffer from significant reduction in power as the angle of the signal becomes less perpendicular to the array)
8 - production rate of less than one aircraft per month leading to serious quality and support supplier issues
9 - terrible reliability (one of the four Rafales at Red Flag had to be grounded and cannibalized for parts to support the other 3)
10 - tiny radar aperture (550mm) insufficient for an air superiority fighter and limits radar performance regardless of future AESA.
 
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leroy       3/9/2009 2:56:17 PM
11. No towed decoy (unlike the F-15, F-16, F-18, EF, etc etc)
12. No stand-off jammer capability
13. Limited to only a handful of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons
14. No reconnaissance pod
15. No anti-radiation missile
 
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sentinel28a       3/9/2009 8:23:59 PM

It's not fair to bait Blue Wings, like this....really.

 

It's like starting a thread entitled, "The Brilliance of William Halsey" or "Why General Kulik is the REAL Hero of the Great Patriotic War."  It's just Herald Bait...you shouldn't do the same thing to BW.


What're you talking about?  Halsey was brilliant!  (Just not off Samar in October 1944.)
*ducks*
 
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HERALD1357    Halsey   3/9/2009 8:40:08 PM




It's not fair to bait Blue Wings, like this....really.



 



It's like starting a thread entitled, "The Brilliance of William Halsey" or "Why General Kulik is the REAL Hero of the Great Patriotic War."  It's just Herald Bait...you shouldn't do the same thing to BW.






What're you talking about?  Halsey was brilliant!  (Just not off Samar in October 1944.)


*ducks*


 
Its a joke, but you know as well as I do, we have the evidence that this useless braggart who had a penchant for chasing obvious decoys, sending better men and more able commanders than him to their deaths to retrieve his tactical mistakes, and this press happy racist bigot, was the WORST of our Pacific commanders.   
 
End of the Halsey topic. 
 
Herald
 
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Bluewings12       3/9/2009 9:04:09 PM
We had so many threads about the Rafale that it 's really annoying to repeat everything again and I will not .
So briefly :
""1 - no export sales
2 - no laser designator
3 - no AESA
4 - overpriced 4th gen fighter""
 
True with #1 , 2 and 3 and France is working on it . The #4 is not correct .
Btw , # 2 and #3 can be mounted on the aircraft in matter of hours in case of emergency . 
 
""-higher wing loading than the Typhoon. (326 kg/m^ vs 311 kg/m^2) under burden
-inferior engines to the Typhoon. (75,200 kilonewtons versus 92,000 kilonewtons)
-inferior radar to the Typhoon. (estimated effective detection threshhold range 100 kilometers interval detect for an RBE2 against an FA-18 sized object in still air clear day at 5000 meters versus CAPTOR 150-200 kilometers same object in a head-on pass same altitude.
-inferior acceleration to the Typhoon. (305 m/s vs. 320 m/s)
-better bomb truck as it has more potential A2G standoff ordnance to integrate""
 
True , but the CAPTOR ~while having a better range~ does NOT have the capabilities of the PESA RBE2  . The AESA will clearly put the CAPTOR into dark ages .
 
""alas: if only it had the electronics to EXPLOIT it!.""
 
This is Herald 's BS and nothing else . The Rafale 's avionics (and especially the Pit user interface) are superior to the Eurofighter Typhoon .
 
""-cursed with the MICA missile.""
 
Another "phobia" from Herald . I do not know what Poseur3 has against the MICA but the clown is wrong . Actually , nobody in the French community understand why the clown hates the MICA ... France always had some of the best A2A missiles around (Matra 530- Super , Magic , Magic-II , etc ...) The MICA is so far the best missile we ever had and if the clown thinks that France would have fielded a "duck" , the clown should really go back to Google and dig a bit more ...
 
 
""5 - no HMS, putting it at a disadvantage against every other modern fighter in WVR""
 
True and I wish that the DGA had founded our HMS .
 
""6 - no IR optics in current production models.  Obviously this can be overcome with a pod, but it's worth pointing out since the OSF is so often touted as a magical solution to all problems""
 
This is the worth case scenario for the Rafale . Without the OSF and the next generation TV cam , the Rafale will loose 40% of its capabilities . This is an homicide from the DGA . I hate them and the French Pilots hate them too .
 
 
 
""7 - defensive jammer system based on three small electronically-steered antennas, which means serious angular limitations on its DJM emitters""
 
Since no other 4th generation Fighter has a remotly comparable capability , the Rafale is still ahead .
 
""8 - production rate of less than one aircraft per month leading to serious quality and support supplier issues""
 
True .
 
""9 - terrible reliability (one of the four Rafales at Red Flag had to be grounded and cannibalized for parts to support the other 3)""
 
True but it is our usual funding problems and the crisis coming from the fuck**g Yankees is not going to help . The French Gov should take drastic mesures to resolve the problem .
 
""10 - tiny radar aperture (550mm) insufficient for an air superiority fighter and limits radar performance regardless of future AESA.""
 
BS . The F-16 's nose is 20% smaller than the Rafale 's nose and our AESA will bring 50% more range . Where is the problem ???
 
""11. No towed decoy (unlike the F-15, F-16, F-18, EF, etc etc)""
 
No need . Towed decoys are a burden .
 
""12. No stand-off jammer capability""
 
That is not Rafale 's mission for now . Our Carbone system can be adapted to the Rafale in no time if needed .
 
""13. Limited to only a handful of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons""
 
Which are already good enough for the job at hand . The Cherries on the cake will be the Meteor and the Damoclès Pod .
 
""14. No reconnaissance pod""
 
The Pod exists and can be mounted on the Rafale very quickly if needed .
 
""15. No anti-radiation missile""
 
True but the AASM makes up for it for now .
****************************************
The facts shows that the Rafale is still in the making , but the aircraft is already a true 4.5 gen Fighter and can be accounted for if the sh*t hit the fan . 
The Typhoon is nowhere close to the Rafale and the F-35 is still a paper plane .
 
Cheers .
 
 
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benellim4       3/9/2009 9:21:34 PM
"Its a joke, but you know as well as I do, we have the evidence that this useless braggart who had a penchant for chasing obvious decoys, sending better men and more able commanders than him to their deaths to retrieve his tactical mistakes, and this press happy racist bigot, was the WORST of our Pacific commanders.   
"
 
-Geez oh Pete!  I knew there was a reason I liked you.
 
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earlm       3/9/2009 9:42:30 PM
MICA has a mass of 112kg.  Subtract warhead, electronics and structure and I would guess it carries half of the propellant of an AMRAAM with more than half of the weight and drag to go against.  There is no way with the laws of physics and chem that it can be a decent BVR weapon.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    I would laugh in derision in the fanboy's face if oit were technically possible to do so through a keyboard.   3/9/2009 11:07:30 PM
 
But then of course I can, BW.

Enjoy this parable. You know what part you play here?
 
On topic: The Rafale is everything I said it was. Poseur 2's assertions to the contrary, I KNOW the current physical and ELECTRONIC limits of the French technology tree. He doesn't. You can only get so much out of RBE2 if it was designed to work right. It wasn't. We've already discussed the sidelobe propagation foul-up in the original PESA design, the THALES  who failed to do the actaul physics calculations right, were never able to fix. Given that the SAME cast of engineers are involved with the AESA upgrade? I don't respect those Cartesian logic trained THALES clowns, nor their shop. Not enough experiment and bench-test based engineering-too much "theory" of what should work foisted as an ideal direct paper to hardware solution.
 
You see the same exact mistakes made with MICA, ASTER, the Laugh-it-ups, The Chuckles de Gaulle, etc. You cannot develop bleeding edge technology by skipping steps or trying to do it on the cheap. You have to proof the concepts step by step. Something you overlooked in your development process will always bite you when you skip steps or assume you can paper solve a problem. THALES and DASSAULT and a few other outfits, just don't get it. You don't see ARIANESPACE use that crap approach. Why do these other companies do so? 
 
I remind Poseur 2 that the French Assembly in a report they published complained bitterly last year, that their defense industries promised France a worldbeater aircrafter in 1988, but couldn't even deliver a decent working bombing aircraft to the 1988 specs claimed when a pair was sent to Afghanistan last year.   
.  
Its not exclusive to France, (Northrop Grumman with the WEDGETAIL and LockMart with the SPARKY are in the middle of couple of  BOLOS now, and I said so here.) so I am not France bashing. What I am tired of though is seeing Frenchmen being sold a bill of goods by !%er THIEVES and POSEURS.
 
That includes you, Bluewings.
 
At least some Americans have enough honesty to say what's wrong with our own, admit it, and try to FIX it.
 
Herald
 
 
 
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DarthAmerica    BW reply   3/9/2009 11:22:09 PM

The facts shows that the Rafale is still in the making , but the aircraft is already a true 4.5 gen Fighter and can be accounted for if the sh*t hit the fan . 
The Typhoon is nowhere close to the Rafale and the F-35 is still a paper plane .

Cheers .

BW,

Aside from your usual fans, things are still relatively cordial compared to past "Rafale Pro/Con threads". OK so with that in mind, I have a few questions for you. Now keep in mind we have been debating this with each other for a good percentage of the decade! Can you believe that? Wow...anyway...

OK, and I'll be respectful if you remain that way, here are the questions.

1. I'm personally amazed at the level of conviction in your voice when we mention things like Rafale has no Laser designator and you respond with "Oh, if we need it, it is no problem to integrate". If that's the case, then why is it taking so long? Also, it seems to me that you think integrating complex electronics that have to conform to the laws of physics and meet the demands of combat is easy. It's not from my experience. 

2. OK, the 4.5 gen claim aside, which i think is silly for any fighter to be called that, you do realize that as a complete weapons system, Rafale falls far short on many of the capabilities commonly found in "4th Gen" fighters like say a modern Mig-29 or F-15. That isn't even debatable. For instance, Mig-29 HAS an IR sensor that works and HMS. F-15 has a working AESA option and laser designator. Any of these could be had RIGHT NOW. Any thoughts on that?

3. It's also interesting that you call the F-35 a "paper" plane and you say the Typhoon is nowhere close to Rafale when the F-35 is being set to be produced at the rate of 1 F-35 per day compared to 1 Rafale per month. The Typhoon has export sales and multiple users with development, production and operational use moving steadily along. By comparison the Rafale is struggling to get past IOC. Do you not acknowledge that? Nationalism aside thats just the way things are and any aviation enthusiast can see that. 



BW, I realize the potential of the Rafale and I actually like it as a concept. It's potential to replace so many platform types. It's capability as a multirole fighter including naval air. The gracefulness of it's appearance. Heck, just the fact that it's an indigenous design and fully competitive with other modern fighters once it finally matures. But the fact is BW that maturity is still not here and by anyone's standards it's long over due. I mean F-22, F-18E, Typhoon, Gripen, Mig-29, Su-27 and soon the F-35. All were conceived roughly around the same time and all are moving along. Considering that, I don't think it can be denied with any credibility.

-DA 
 
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DropBear       3/9/2009 11:43:28 PM
We had so many threads about the Rafale that it 's really annoying to repeat everything again and I will not .
 
Quite right.
 
Most of the commentary regarding the Rafale seemed to inundate any thread with the word Hornet in the title. Go figure!
 
 
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Phaid       3/10/2009 12:30:49 AM
Too busy to read everything at the moment, but this caught my eye:
 
""10 - tiny radar aperture (550mm) insufficient for an air superiority fighter and limits radar performance regardless of future AESA.""
 
BS . The F-16 's nose is 20% smaller than the Rafale 's nose and our AESA will bring 50% more range . Where is the problem ???
 
Incorrect.  Radars in F-16 models are about 740 x 480 mm, hardly smaller than the RBE2.  And every other Western fighter the Rafale tries to compete with has a larger array, anywhere from 700mm to 1 meter.  The only fighter currently in production with a smaller radar than the Rafale is the Gripen.
 
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VelocityVector       3/10/2009 2:07:20 AM

May God Bless this thread and Tiny Tim too.  Yip.

v^2

 
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leroy       3/10/2009 3:23:01 AM
I love how his answer to every different major shortcoming is to say "oh we could do that right away if we wanted to!"
 
"Btw , # 2 and #3 can be mounted on the aircraft in matter of hours in case of emergency . "
 
Oh really?  You could "mount" your not yet out of R&D laser designator and AESA in a matter of hours?  Even if we assumed the prototype hardware worked as designed(extremely optimistic, that is why this equipment is still in development)... where does that leave the rest of your Rafale fleet?

"True , but the CAPTOR ~while having a better range~ does NOT have the capabilities of the PESA RBE2  . The AESA will clearly put the CAPTOR into dark ages ."
 
No it won't, the AESA RBE-2 is just a new antenna on an old radar.  It will gain range and some flexibility, but it won't have anything like the full range of capabilities seen in purpose-built AESA radars.  (It will be similar to the AESA upgrades we were putting in F-15Cs for a while, just a new front-end with an old back-end.  We have since recognized that that isn't a great solution.)
 
"Since no other 4th generation Fighter has a remotly comparable capability , the Rafale is still ahead ."
 
Of course they do dimwit, they just don't have cool marketing names like "spectra."
 
"True but it is our usual funding problems and the crisis coming from the fuck**g Yankees is not going to help ."
 
LOL, "Yankees" caused your funding problems? That is a new one...  If you were already having problems getting spare parts last fall... you guys must really be in trouble now.
 
"No need . Towed decoys are a burden ."
 
lol, what do experts around the world know that you don't?  (Ok, lots... but lets not go there)  Even a fanboy can understand why towed decoys are an attractive option.  As usual you just don't want to. 
 
"That is not Rafale 's mission for now . Our Carbone system can be adapted to the Rafale in no time if needed ."
 
Right, no problem just throwing together a state-of-the-art standoff jammer, integrating it, and taking it into combat.  "no time" indeed... the Carbone pod is barely even a marketing brochure at this point. 
 
"Which are already good enough for the job at hand ." 
 
Sure, as long as that job is bombing Afghanistan.
 
"The Pod exists and can be mounted on the Rafale very quickly if needed ."
 
Just like all the rest of your favorite plane's capabilities... you would have some extremely busy engineers in a crisis wouldn't you?  

"True but the AASM makes up for it for now ."
 
No it doesn't.  
 
"The Typhoon is nowhere close to the Rafale and the F-35 is still a paper plane ."
 
The Typhoon is a whole heck of a lot farther along than the Rafale, and pulling away.
 
The F-35 is a paper plane?  Just like your AESA, laser designator, standoff jammer, HMS, etc etc etc.
 
The F-35 will be operational long before the Rafale gets most of the capabilities you claim could be ready "very quickly if needed."
 

 
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