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Subject: The Rafale's First Red Flag
Phaid    9/3/2008 5:22:21 PM
This is my translation of a new article from TTU Online: hxxp://www.ttu.fr/francais/Articles/rafaleredflag.html The Rafale's First Red Flag For the armée de l'air, two years after its official entry into service at Saint Dizier, the summer of 2008 was the first opportunity to fully test the Rafale in the context of a large-scale war gaming exercise in the Nevada desert, which came at the conclusion of a long journey journey across the American continent following a crossing of the Atlantic via the Azores. Planned for a year and a half, the goal of Red Flag is to prepare the French air forces for tactical interoperability. The armée de l'air has taken part in Red Flag on a regular basis since 1981, and nearly all of its combat aircraft types have participated. This time, it was the Rafale's turn, as a prelude to the participation of the Mirage F1CT/CR this fall in Green Flag -- a CAS exercise smaller in scale than Red Flag but which prepares forces for missions currently being undertaken in Afghanistan. And so, from the 7th to the 22nd August, a detachment of four Rafales from the fighter squadron 1/7 "Provence", based in Saint-Dizier, accompanied by a C-135FR tanker, spent ten days taking part in the fourth Red Flag of 2008, certainly the most demanding -- the closest thing to real war, they say -- for a Western pilot. The detachment of 85 personnel, under the command of colonel Philippe Poireault, the team's leader, and of the lieutenant colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commander of the 1/7, consisted in all of fourteen pilotes, six navigators, an intelligence officer, and 39 mechanics. The detachment consisted of two teams; one for missions during the day and one for missions at night. The roster was rounded out by air commandos responsible for the security of the aircraft. Taking place immediately following a 10-day base exchange at Luke Air Force Base with F-16s and personnel of the USAF's 309th TFS, the goal of the Rafale's first Red Flag was to compare the Rafale, which the squadron has been flying for two years, with combat aircraft of the same generation (called the 4th generation): F-15Es of the USAFE, F-15Ks of the RoKAF, F-15 and F-16 Aggressors, and Su-30MKIs of the IAF. It should be noted that half of the French participants had participated in the Afghan theater in recent months. The four Rafale from the 1/7 (numbers 317, 320, 321, and 325) were all two-seaters, of the F2+ standard (and thus very recent), with a total "swing role" capability and whose simulated armament was composed of Mica IR/EM AAMs and rocket-propelled inertially guided AASM/GPS weapons. The missions were supported by the SLPRM (the SAGEM local mission planning and replay system, a mission-planning computer system). During the ten days of Red Flag, the Rafale Bs undertook a total of four sorties per day, each averaging two hours (1 day strike and 1 night strike), as part of a Blue Air strike package consisting in general of fifty to sixty aircraft. This took place in outside temperatures above 45°C, nearly identical to conditions in Kandahar, Afghanistan. These temperatures were in fact more taxing on the crews and maintainers than on the aircraft; the M88's power reserve at takeoff assuring comfortable levels of thrust at the beginnings of the missions. The aircraft were normally equipped with three large supersonic external tanks of 1200 liters to mimic a heavy war load. The primary preoccupation of the armée de l'air in coming to Nellis AFB with the Rafale was first to verify the proper integration of the aircraft and its systems in a dense and complex environment of allied aircraft, notably with the participation of EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft and F-16CJs performing SEAD. General Jean-Pierre Martin, commander of the combat air forces, who even participated in one of the last Rafale B missions over the Nellis range (which is as large as the territory of Switzerland!) during the August Red Flag, commented: "After a year and a half of preparation, the system is in operational service and has been utilised in operatiosn which demonstrates that the capabilities of the aircraft are at the desired level. The Rafale behaved itself very well and fulfilled its part of the missions, and even did so easily thanks to the combination of its sensors and its networking systems (link 16). We can say that, for the first time, in contrast to previous exercises involving Jaguars or Mirage F1s or 2000, the French flew at Red Flag on an aircraft of comparable generation which had nothing to envy those of its American, Korean, and Indian comrades." Also taking into account the mission profiles undertaken in a theater saturated with surface-to-air and air-to-air threats, the Rafale also very well demonstr5ated its capacity to penetrate enemy air defenses thanks to its very capable weapon system to which the new AASM bomb is not a stranger. In fact, if the different participants were not particula
 
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Softwar    Bluewings - should change his name to RED WINGS   9/12/2008 9:30:18 AM

This is what BW wrote:

All you need first is to put your aircraft long enough in a anechoic chamber , record how the EM waves bounce on the airframe (basic work) then compute how the EM waves will bounce at every possible angle . From there , you build a map of your airframe "radar spikes" at the (fill the blank) frequencies . You then end up with many "pictures" (which are in fact the  digital EM signatures) of the aircraft . These signatures are then uploaded into the SPECTRA databank .

Later on , when the interferometric EW suite locate the threat , you change the EM holographic signature into the one you have in the databank (the one without the "radar spikes") with the Bragg cells and you send that out of phase signal back to the adverse radar . Et voilà .


BW - This is my reply:

OK - at first I thought you might not know what you are talking about - now I'm sure.

First, in order to do what you suggest here you would have to do each plane individually (they do differ), from every angle, in the widest possible temperature and humity, ice, snow, rain.  Then you will have to rerun the same sets with every possible weapon load, pylon, bomb, missile, warhead and seeker.  Then you will have to re-do each test on each plane anytime any maint. crew opens a panel or anytime they hang a bomb, pod, pylon or missile.
 
It is - after all - only a 4th generation aircraft - so all your weapons are exterior and even the slightly fin mis-alignment, seeker head set off, bolt out of place will cause your so called ECM to distort the image and become a better target - not less of a target.  The same goes for anything you add to the plane, any new nut, bolt, reciever, warning device and so on....
 
Finally, after you do and re-do this alignment and reprogramming.  Your system will have to automatically calibrate itself to the changes in the environment, weapons load, and even the helmet your pilot is wearing (to name a few).  It will have to do this in real time, during flight and combat.
 
In short - what you posted above is either complete balony or if in use - is actually assisting SA-10 and SU-27 crews in tracking your plane.

>>><<<
Now you claim that EACH Rafale has had its radar imaging taken from every angle in every possible environment (hot, cold, thin air, thick air, wet air, rain, snow, sleet)?
>>><<<

Softwar:
""you have to take readings from every angle, in every flight mode, in every environmental variation""

BW reply:
That 's true and has been done .

>>>OK PROVE IT!
Where is your reference to this being done in a chamber big enough to house a Rafale - traveling at combat speed - that is also set up to perform all variants of weather encoutered?  Even slight variations in thermal stress will alter the radar image and render your so-called counter-measure into a giant "kill me" sign.
<<<

Softwar:
""with every warload ON""

BW reply:
That hasn 't been done as I said before .

>>><<<
Oh really?  I posted your original comments up top.  Even before you think of replying - please note if this has not been done - ON EACH plane individually - your post is absolute BALONEY!  Thus, the moment you hang a missile, bomb, drop tank, pod, or pylon - your magnificant SPECTRA system better shut itself off.

So - your 4th gen Rafale turns out to be just that - a 4th generation airframe with limited growth, a 1980s set of engines and obsolete electronics backed by a government unwilling to dedicate the funding to improve it.  Perhaps, the decision in Paris to not seek upgrades are the foretaste of things to come for Rafale - as in - there is a 5th gen plane on the design boards but no one is talking.  Is your government just cheap or is this a rational decision to not throw good money after bad in keeping the Rafale up to date?
>>><<<

BW wrote:
One day will come when the Great China will wake up and declare a total War on the United States . The only winner will be Europe and possibly India if the Indians stay quiet . We ~Europeans~ have been there for 3000 years and we 'll last even longer , no worries . And its not the F-22 Raptor who 's going to save you from the Chinese nuclear fire .

>>><<<
Ah, ha!  So kind of you to show your real colors, BW!  You are not a true French patriot nor are you interested in an alliance with the US.  Instead, you are a supporter of the PRC and wish to see America in an ash

 
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Phaid       9/12/2008 12:10:04 PM
Anyway, back to actual content.  This week's "Air & Cosmos" magazine talks about availability rates for the Rafale in its recent exercises in the US:
 
- The Flotille 12F Rafales that operated from Roosevelt during JTFEX 08-4 had an availability rate of 75%.  About 10 missions were scrubbed, although the majority of those were weather related.
 
- The EC 1/7 Rafales at Red Flag had a similar availability rate of 70-75%
 
Not very impressive, since both units have been operating the Rafale for over two years now (12F has been operating Rafales since 2001, although the first several years were the F1 type).  I guess the Indians were right, though.
 
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Softwar       9/12/2008 1:02:29 PM
All this points to is a starving logistics chain - something that is not likely to impress buyers who know that in combat spares and support are your lifeline.
 
Again, I wonder if the delays we are seeing coming at the fiscal end (delay in Damocles, AESA, lowered availability due to lack of logistics) are not the tip of the iceberg?  Is France considering a 5th gen design and therefore saving money for this future project by shaving costs on the 4th gen?
 
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Phaid       9/12/2008 1:33:20 PM

Again, I wonder if the delays we are seeing coming at the fiscal end (delay in Damocles, AESA, lowered availability due to lack of logistics) are not the tip of the iceberg?  Is France considering a 5th gen design and therefore saving money for this future project by shaving costs on the 4th gen?

No, they're simply faced with the same economic realities that all European nations are faced with.
 
The UK is in a similar situation; their planned fleet of Eurofighters is now down to 140, the rest having become "surplus to requirements" because there is simply no money for them.  The difference however is that the Typhoon has had fairly good export success with the Saudi orders, so their plans for future development may well be realized.
 
The reality of the situation for France is that the original 294 Rafales number depended on sufficient export sales to lower the unit cost and absorb development costs of improvements such as the AESA set.  Combine the lack of exports with the current economic downturns and that makes the original number unfeasible.
 
As far as the availability issues, it's no secret that the current low production rate of the Rafales (about one per month) is causing quality issues.  It's also tremendously increasing the cost of spares, since the smaller suppliers down the chain have to raise prices to make up for the lack of orders for actual production aircraft.
 
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Bluewings12       9/12/2008 2:00:23 PM
Hang on a minute Softwar ! I totally refuse the following :
 
""BW wrote:

One day will come when the Great China will wake up and declare a total War on the United States . The only winner will be Europe and possibly India if the Indians stay quiet . We ~Europeans~ have been there for 3000 years and we 'll last even longer , no worries . And its not the F-22 Raptor who 's going to save you from the Chinese nuclear fire .

>>><<<

Ah, ha!  So kind of you to show your real colors, BW!  You are not a true French patriot nor are you interested in an alliance with the US.  Instead, you are a supporter of the PRC and wish to see America in an ash heap.  We see you issuing this kind of veiled threat at nuclear damnation on our people and its no better than an Osama bin Laden tape. ""
 
You are putting words in my mouth I did not speak .
I was talking about the well known French policy on the use of Nuclear weapons . Since General C. de Gaulle , we reserve the right to use our nuclear fire the way we see fit , regardless of the alliances .
France took this decision right after the Suez canal Crisis and you only have yourselves to blame , American Friends ...
I am not anti-american at all , believe me . I just have to have a look at my mobile phone "personal contact list" to see 5 US numbers . They 're all friends .
 
Cheers .

 
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Softwar    Thanks Phaid!   9/12/2008 2:05:07 PM
So this is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.
 
So the F-16 - with thousands in service world-wide - is a case of quantity having a quality all its own.  You can get spares, electronics, support and tons of weapons (literally) off the shelf as compared to the limited availability of same for other fighters with their small production numbers supporting a slim logistics chain.
 
LockMart is working this same lesson on the F-35.
 
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Softwar    Redwings   9/12/2008 2:18:18 PM

Hang on a minute Softwar ! I totally refuse the following :

 

""BW wrote:




One day will come when the Great China will wake up and declare a total
War on the United States . The only winner will be Europe and possibly
India if the Indians stay quiet . We ~Europeans~ have been there for
3000 years and we 'll last even longer , no worries . And its not the
F-22 Raptor who 's going to save you from the Chinese nuclear fire



Refuse what you want but you wrote it pal - I am not taking it the wrong way.  I am not taking back what I wrote in reply.  Your post was quoted verbatum - it was neither a pleasant nor was it one wishing well to the USA.  You made no such reference to any first use policy or even to General de Gualle.  Instead, it was a simple - you will burn in nuclear fire and we will laugh.  So I take you for what you are - yet another person who hates America and wants us to die. 
 
Good luck with that attitude.  As far as I'm concerned - this does not represent your people, government or armed forces.
 
fin
 
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Bluewings12       9/12/2008 2:31:50 PM
Softwar :
 
""First, in order to do what you suggest here you would have to do each plane individually (they do differ), from every angle, in the widest possible temperature and humity, ice, snow, rain.""
 
??? You do not know what you 're talking about . No-one needs to put every single aircraft in an anechoic chamber for months before to declare it "fit to serve" ! Not even the mighty USAF with all its money ! But I promise you that the USAF has all the digital signatures of every stealth aircraft they 've been using or will use . That 's the basic work to get a low RCS airframe and a way to set up your ECM suite , there is no other way .
Basically , you 're loosing yourself into details which cannot be taken into accounts because they are irrelevant .
 
The rest of your diatribe is simply something coming from your  misunderstanding .
 
""OK PROVE IT!
Where is your reference to this being done in a chamber big enough to house a Rafale""
 
There (you 'll find a picture of one of the three anechoic chambers we have with the Rafale inside under "The survival" topic) :
h*ttp://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_4.pdf
 
Softwar , the Rafale is not a 4th generation aircraft . All I 've been posting these years about the Rafale is well founded and it is actually and for the foreseable futur the best European Aircraft which is and has been the Dassault signature for the past 50 years . In the end of the day , it makes the FAF even stronger and its the main thing for all the Frenchmen and all the Frenchwomen .
Not selling a single Rafale abroad will not make France weaker as a Nation . But we 'll sell some unfortunatly , I tell you ...
 
Please gentlemen , do not make the confusion in between Peace time and the need to grow economicaly and Wartime with the need to survive . We could built 30 Rafales (probably more actually) a month with all the spares if we had to .
 
Cheers .
 

 
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Bluewings12       9/12/2008 2:42:06 PM
Softwar :
""it was neither a pleasant nor was it one wishing well to the USA.""
then :
""Instead, it was a simple - you will burn in nuclear fire and we will laugh.  So I take you for what you are - yet another person who hates America and wants us to die. ""
 
We do have a big misunderstanding here and I do not know how to explain to you that what you write and think is light years away from what I believe and wanted to say . I can still apologize to you ~I do~ but I don 't know why I should apologize for as I do not agree with what you think about me .
 
I repeat that I am not anti-american and all my friends at h*ttp://www.steelbeasts.com/ be my witnesses .
 
Cheers .

 
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Softwar    yup - 4th gen 1980s   9/12/2008 2:46:31 PM

Softwar :

 


""First,
in order to do what you suggest here you would have to do each plane
individually (they do differ), from every angle, in the widest possible
temperature and humity, ice, snow, rain.""

 

??? You do not know what you 're talking about . No-one needs to put every single aircraft in an anechoic chamber for months before to declare it "fit to serve" ! Not even the mighty USAF with all its money ! But I promise you that the USAF has all the digital signatures of every stealth aircraft they 've been using or will use . That 's the basic work to get a low RCS airframe and a way to set up your ECM suite , there is no other way .


Basically , you 're loosing yourself into details which cannot be taken into accounts because they are irrelevant .


 

The rest of your diatribe is simply something coming from your  misunderstanding .


 

""OK PROVE IT!



Where is your reference to this being done in a chamber big enough to house a Rafale""

 

There (you 'll find a picture of one of the three anechoic chambers we have with the Rafale inside under "The survival" topic) :

h*ttp://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_4.pdf


 

Softwar , the Rafale is not a 4th generation aircraft . All I 've been posting these years about the Rafale is well founded and it is actually and for the foreseable futur the best European Aircraft which is and has been the Dassault signature for the past 50 years . In the end of the day , it makes the FAF even stronger and its the main thing for all the Frenchmen and all the Frenchwomen .


Not selling a single Rafale abroad will not make France weaker as a Nation . But we 'll sell some unfortunatly , I tell you ...


 

Please gentlemen , do not make the confusion in between Peace time and the need to grow economicaly and Wartime with the need to survive . We could built 30 Rafales (probably more actually) a month with all the spares if we had to .


 
You just proved my point - the fact is what you wrote was incomplete and incorrect - and no one can or will do this.  Doing it with a single model is useless because each plane is different.  Of course, anyone with an elementary knowledge of radar technology knows that.
So - once again your posting is pure BS.  The whole point of my response to your post - which was done nearly a week ago before you elected to respond today - was to show how impossible it was to accomplish the task you outlined.  Then - on top of that - your claim that you could load all this data into a counter-measure system that could compensate for aircraft, flight conditions, and configuration - was just that - a load.
 
Rafale hangs its bombs and missiles in the airstream, loads its drop tanks on pylons, just like all the other 4th gen aircraft.  It was developed in the 1980s - 1980s design - 1980s engines.  So its a 4th gen aircraft.  It has a limited run and is in trouble due to the low rate of production - forcing an increase in costs and a lowered availability rate due to a lack of logistics.  No exports, no laser designator, no AESA. 
 
France needs to join the 5th gen or lose its military aerospace edge.  I suggest you cut a few social programs and dedicate more funding to a new plane that can compete on the market.

 
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