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Subject: JAS-39 Gripen, the chance in Asia-Pacific market?
Aces    3/28/2004 11:51:51 PM
I think it's the 2nd best option for a light weight fighter (no doubt F-35's the best) in Asia-Pacific region. It's a good aircraft for the replacement of old 2nd or 3rd gen. fighters like F-16, F-5 ect., with the price cheaper than F-35. It's only light wt. 4 gen. fighter in the market. It's can be used as low-end fighter togerther with high-end F-35.
 
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Shaken    RE:Gripen -Shaken   4/30/2004 4:58:25 AM
I'm sorry Jacques, but I don't follow. What competitions was the US upset about that affected Viggen purchases. In that timeframe, Czechoslovia was buying Soviet and South Africa was buying French (Mirage F.1 targets for Cuban Floggers). Are you describing the recent Gripen situation? (I'm presuming so, since these are two of the three Gripen export customers). I've never heard of the US doing anything to block Gripen sales into Austria. In fact, Gripen was the top contender right up to Austria's surprise decision for Typhoon. Similarly, I've not heard anything of the US hindering Gripen's sales prospects in other Eastern European nations. It would be difficult to restict shipments of the US engine into nations that were about to join NATO. This is not to say the US doesn't use its financial aid packages and lucrative basing plans to influence purchase decisions. Poland's selection of the F-16 yielded big poltical and military advantages for the Poles, while Gripen counter-offered certain economic advantages. European suppliers have been offering offset packages and subsidy discounts as their sales leverage/incentive. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...
 
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Big Bad Pariah    RE:JAS-39 Gripen, the chance in Asia-Pacific market? - shawn   7/12/2004 4:16:33 AM
"Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam, all of which would probably buy Russian." Vietnam has already recently purchased Su-27s.
 
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doggtag    RE:JAS-39 Gripen, the chance in Asia-Pacific market?   7/12/2004 9:28:42 AM
A very good bit of info in the Gripen is here courtesy of SAAB: link click "products by category" click "Military aviation" click "Gripen" photo 5 shows what appears to be a pair of MICAs off the right wing, one of them on the tip rail. Also, y'all can try link Tons of goodies here, yes. There is also a gripen.com.br (Brazil), and I assume that they have created it as such for a reason: I have heard valid speculation they may be the South American customer eventually (they need to replace an aging fleet of F-5s and Mirages). Anyone with more knowledge on this possibility, please reply. And of course, the ever-popular friends at link if it hasn't been posted up already. The airframe is already stated to be AMRAAM and MICA capable, AIM-9 series, and eventually IRIS-T and Meteor. Denel of South Africa has been instrumental in the development of its Cobra helmet-mounted cueing system. It therefore should not be too difficult to adopt it to any specific Asian short- and medium-range AAMs (sweetly, the Rafael Derby/Alto BVR missile would be an ideal lightweight close/medium range AAM). It also has a maritime role (certainly one of Sweden's multi-role requirements), and carrying Harpoon, Maverick, or Taurus (or similar) weapons, could provide a very capable sea strike platform..
 
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Shaken    Missiles in image (Daggtag) was:JAS-39 Gripen, the chance in Asia-Pacific market?   7/12/2004 1:56:43 PM
>> (Doggtag) >> link click "products by category" click "Military aviation" click "Gripen" >> >> photo 5 shows what appears to be a pair of MICAs off the right wing, one of them on the tip rail. (Shaken) Actually, the missile mockup on the wingtip is IRIS-T (identified by the long trailing vanes) and the missile mockup underwing is Meteor (identified by the ramjet scoops). -- Shaken - out --
 
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doggtag    RE:Missiles in image (Daggtag) was:JAS-39 Gripen, the chance in Asia-Pacific market?   7/12/2004 2:32:21 PM
yes I see that now. My bad. I stand corrected. Still, those photos show some impressive carriage abilities..
 
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Shaken    RE:Missiles in image (Daggtag) was:JAS-39 Gripen, the chance in Asia-Pacific market?   7/12/2004 5:57:23 PM
>> (Doggtag) >> Still, those photos show some impressive carriage abilities. (Shaken) The Gripen is just a Bitchen' Camaro. It is very versitile and has a great cost over airframe life story. Downsides for the Gripen are it is range limited (although conformal tanks could alleviate this, particularly in the strike roll) and it is under-powered for a generation 4.5 airframe (t/w is very similar to F/A-18C Hornet). I still wonder why they haven't swapped the F414 engine in place of the F404. -- Shaken - out --
 
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doggtag    JAS-39 Gripen, F404 or F414?   7/12/2004 10:17:56 PM
...or perhaps the EJ 200 from the Eurofighter would be a feasible powerplant (the dimensions are fairly similar, about 33-35 inches in diameter, and about 155-160 inches in length, weights vary). Shoe-horning the more potent F414 is not as simple as pulling out the 404 then sliding the 414 in. The Gripen's structural members must be sufficiently capable of handling the additional 4000lbs of thrust. Several internal components must be modified and perhaps even re-routed and repositioned. There may be additional cooling requirements, which may necessitate additional airflow/inlet alterations (as was seen when the F-20 was derived from the F-5). They could both offer considerable improvements in power:weight ratio, but may offer up a handful of unforeseen shortcomings in one form or another in other areas (SFC, reliability throughout the Gripen's flight dynamics envelope, etc)..
 
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Shaken    RE:JAS-39 Gripen, F404 or F414?   7/13/2004 1:35:55 PM
Any change of engine would require some rework of the aircraft. In fact, going version to version in a single engine will generally require modification. My reason for suggesting F414 is that this engine is directly derived from the F404 (via the A-12's F412) and would be _MUCH_ easier to install in Gripen. It is dimensionally identical (for discussing at this scale) to the F404/RM12, while the EJ200 is narrower and longer. The F414's similarities also help in the training, maintenance, production, engineering and inter-company relationships side. At this point, EJ200 produces about ten percent less thrust than F414 (20250 lbf vs 22000 lbf). EJ200 may have a better growth path, but there are lots of questions about how much more Typhoon development will be funded (Sweden certainly can't afford to fund the powerplant growth). There are some reliability questions about EJ200, given the loss of an aircraft to double-engine failure on the cusp of Operational Evaluation start. As an aside, I've heard some odd things about how a pair of EF200's share resources. (The Typhoon has been described as having one and a half engines). This could mean that the weights and volumes describing the EJ200 may be deceiving when applied to a single engined aircraft context. -- Shaken - out --
 
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Jewe377    RE:JAS-39 Gripen, F404 or F414?   7/13/2004 4:34:18 PM
Well the volvo RM12(Strenghtened and souped up GE-F404) has always been considered a stop gap engine for the Gripen and SAAB are looking for a non U.S. engine due to strategic and U.S. export policy reasons. The most likely contender seems to be a customised French M88-2 or EF200. Since SAAB has signed a development understanding with Dassault for advanced research I wouldn't be surprised if ther is a french engin in the Gripen evnetually.
 
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Shaken    RE:JAS-39 Gripen, F404 or F414?   7/13/2004 5:29:25 PM
>> (Jewe377) >> Well the volvo RM12(Strenghtened and souped up GE-F404) has always been considered a stop gap engine for the Gripen and SAAB are looking for a non U.S. engine due to strategic and U.S. export policy reasons. (Shaken) Since RM12 is going into the new JAS-39C/D models and Gripen has only generated limited export interest, I would be surprised if any other engine makes its way into Gripen. The biggest buyer (by far) is Sweden itself and they will not need airframes for thirty years after JAS-39C/D procurement is complete. If there is a Gripen 2010 version, it is likely to be an upgrade rather than new aircraft. Going to a different form-factor engine in an upgrade would dramatically increase cost and risk in that program, so the safe bet is probably still on the US F414 engine. Non-France European restrictions are as restrictive or more restrictive than those from the US, so EJ200 will probably give exactly the opposite result from desired. France has a fairly unscrupulous history in arms merchanting and might be a more palatable choice (as you've indicated). Such a choice could harm long-standing relationships and should be entered into with great caution. Either way, economics are more likely to keep any change from being made; thus rendering this whole paragraph moot. -- Shaken - out --
 
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