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Subject: First Plane through the Sonic Barrier: F86? First Pilot, George Welch?
RockyMTNClimber    11/28/2007 1:16:51 PM
I found this while browsing for WWII aircraft/pilot information for the WWII Fighter thread. I was unaware of this claim so I thought I would post it to see if anyone else had heard about it. The gist of the post is that George Welch of North American Aircraft Co. beat Yeager to the Mach barrier by a couple of weeks. It was kept quiet because they wanted a "military pilot" to get the official record. The Web page has sources that I have not checked. Incidentally, this is the George Welch that shot up the Japanese at Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941! "......Welch pushed the throttle up to full power and the Sabre surged forward. “Don’t go away, Bob. I just want to feel it out a bit.” Easing back on the stick, Welch began a steady rate climb at just under 350 mph. Zooming up at over 4,800 feet per minute; it took but a few minutes to reach 35,000 feet. As he leveled off, airspeed quickly increased to 370 mph. After a double-check of his instruments, Welch rolled into a 40 degree dive, pointing the nose west, directly at Pancho’s Fly Inn, several miles away. If ever any aircaft looked right, the XP-86 was certainly one of them. With perfectly clean lines, the Sabre could not help but be a winner. This is how the XP-86 appeared after being reassembled at Muroc. Within a few days, it would punch through the sound barrier. The airspeed indicator wound up to about 405 mph, and seemed to get stuck there. Yet, there was no doubt that the XP-86 was still accelerating. Everything felt normal, until passing below 30,000 feet where a tendency to roll needed some minor correction. George pushed the nose over a bit more. Then, suddenly, the airspeed indicator jumped beyond 470 mph and continued to go up. Passing 25,000 feet, Welch eased back on the stick and pulled back the throttle. Once again, there was a bit of wing roll and the airspeed indicator jumped back from 520 to 450 mph (520 mph indicated translates to 720 mph true at this altitude, uncorrected). Contacting Chilton, Welch joined up with the P-82 as it was time to head back to Muroc. Due to ongoing rigging, the speed brakes had been disabled and were not available. This would complicate the landing approach because jet fighters took quite a while to scrub off airspeed, not having a propeller functioning as a giant, circular air brake. Descending towards the lakebed, Chilton slipped underneath the Sabre as Welch slowed and lowered the landing gear. Once again, the main gear locked down. The nose gear, however, refused to extend beyond the halfway position. Welch cycled the gear up and down several times to no avail. He tried the emergency pump. That too failed to push the nose strut into position. Radio discussions with the North American engineers on the ground produced no solution. Welch even tried pulling several Gs of loading. Nothing worked. With fuel rapidly becoming an issue, Welch elected to make a long, straight-in approach. Touching down at 140 mph, Welch trimmed the nose full up, intending to hold it up as long as possible. Racing alongside the Sabre were crash trucks and a pickup with a motion picture camera. As the Sabre’s speed dipped below 90 mph, Welch began easing the nose down. Just then, the nose gear snapped down and locked in place. The wheel touched, and the XP-86 rolled out normally. George’s luck had held again. Prior to heading back to North American to brief the engineers, George telephoned Millie Palmer. Excitedly, Millie related that a terribly loud ba-boom had nearly blown her out of bed. The time was noted and it corresponded to George’s dive. “Pancho”, Millie related, “is really pissed. You know how she feels about Yeager.” Apparently, Pancho claimed the boom was a result of mining operations going on 30 miles away to the north. Of course, no one had previously heard any mining explosions, nor could that account for rattling windows only on the east facing side of the Fly Inn. Welch chuckled and swore Millie to secrecy. After briefing the engineering team at North American, Welch tracked down Ed Horkey. There were some “funny” instrument readings during the dive, and George was looking for some answers. Test pilot Blackie Blackburn describes the conversation: “I started at about 290 knots”, Welch explained. “In no time I’m at 350. I’m still going down, and I’m still accelerating, but the airspeed indicator seems stuck like there’s some kind of obstruction in the pitot tube, I push over a little steeper and by this time I’m going through 30,000 feet. All of a sudden, the airspeed needle flips to 440 knots. The aircraft feels fine, no funny noises, no vibration. Wanted to roll to the left, but no big deal. Still, I leveled out at 25,000 and came back on the power. The airspeed needle flicked back to 390. Whadya think?” “What did the flight recorder look like?” “It wasn’t on the flight card, I was just feeling it out, so I wasn’t running the camera. Anyway, there wasn’t anything wro
 
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Yimmy       11/28/2007 6:21:18 PM
I believe there was also a Russian to claim to be the first man to break the sound barrier, in something like a stripped down Mig 15.
 
 
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gf0012-aust       11/28/2007 9:11:08 PM

I believe there was also a Russian to claim to be the first man to break the sound barrier, in something like a stripped down Mig 15.

 


That was found to be false.  The North Korean defector No Kum-Sok who gave the americans a Mig15 when he escaped from NK made it clear that the Mig15 couldn't break the sound barrier even in a dive.  The aircraft literally would shake itself stupid.  Ironically Chuck Yeager almost broke the Mig as well because he was too arrogant to listen to what No Kum-Sok told him with respect to handling issues.  Even when they modified the Mig with more reliable replacement parts.
The Mig 15 was only able to achieve Mach .98 and then its nose would pitch up.
Another cute feature of the Mig 15 was that they'd installed the oxygen regulator backwards and that limited its maximum altitude.  The americans replaced the valve and gained another 8000ft. ;)  It also had a tendency to blow its c0ckpit hood off - not a good look especially\ if your regulator is not working properly as well....

 
 
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gf0012-aust       11/28/2007 9:19:39 PM

I found this while browsing for WWII aircraft/pilot information for the WWII Fighter thread. I was unaware of this claim so I thought I would post it to see if anyone else had heard about it.

The gist of the post is that George Welch of North American Aircraft Co. beat Yeager to the Mach barrier by a couple of weeks. It was kept quiet because they wanted a "military pilot" to get the official record.


Have heard of it also.  The difficulty is that Yeager is an american sacred cow - so you're on a "hiding to nothing" if you criticise him.
I have read a number of books where co-pilots considered him arrogant and "up himself".  Even the North Korean pilot who donated his Mig15 regarded him with a bit of curiosity and certainly was of the view that there were other better pilots who were never given proper credit due to Yeagers self generated marketing machine.  He makes it pretty clear in his own memoirs that Yeager was not averse to embellishing the truth to promote his importance. (and it wasn't professional envy as No Kum-Sok was very pro american/USAF
 
IIRC, once of the sources re Welch was an article about RAAF Sabre development from about 10 years ago.  I also met one of the CAC staff involved with the Avon sabre who also stated that Welch was "gipped".
 
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DropBear    Off topic   11/28/2007 9:49:44 PM
Chuck Yeager certainly is an arrogant old sod. I remember an interview where he was asked whether he thought he was the top test pilot of all time ( ad umb question in itself) to which he replied, "I'm not sure but I am certainly in the top three."
 
In his bio he slags off at Joe Walker "who had no business flying formations" and pretty much goes to town on Neil Armstrong etc. He certainly has an ego to match his abilities and then some.
 
 
 
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Claymore       11/29/2007 2:42:07 AM
Yep Ole Chuck is considered by many to be a jackass.

We all know the F-86 could hit Mach 1 in a dive so this is certainly believable and has enough people to back it up. Wonder why no one has done more to pursue this.

 
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gf0012-aust       11/29/2007 2:48:37 AM

. Wonder why no one has done more to pursue this.

Yeager is a sacred cow.

 
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sentinel28a       11/29/2007 10:07:01 PM
I don't know about this.  It's true Yeager is a sacred cow, arrogant, and a shameless self-promoter.  (Basically, William Shatner in a flight suit.)  However, Yeager was only arrogant in 1947; he was virtually unknown outside of Muroc and his old fighter group.  What notoriety he had was being the 8th AF's first ace in a day and being the only guy to evade through Spain and convince Ike to fly combat again.  (I have to mention that Yeager was the only guy to stick up for Jack Broughton.)
 
Wheaties Welch, on the other hand, was fairly well known, because of his very enviable record at Pearl Harbor.  I don't know if he had gotten out when he went to work for North American, but he wasn't exactly a "civilian" in comparison to Yeager.  Yeager also wasn't the guy slated to fly the X-1 originally for the record attempt; it was a civilian pilot who wanted to be paid more.  The USAF balked, Yeager offered to fly just on his base salary, and the rest is history.
 
It is entirely possible that Welch got it first, but it's also plausible he didn't.  I have heard that Heini Dittmar broke the sound barrier in a Komet, but the problem with that is I tend to hear it from people who basically insist the Germans invented everything in the 20th Century and would've won the war if Hitler had just approved x project.  The fact that Germans wouldn't have had the pilots to fly x project never seems to enter into the equation, or that the Allies seemed to find ways to thwart whatever wonder weapon the Germans spent way too much time on.
 
 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Yeager v. F86   11/30/2007 11:32:02 AM
 
I find the story believable and will be seeking sources to flush out the truth. It is a fact that the F86 could go supersonic in a dive (I have seen 1940-'s/'50s USAF film on the subject on the old "Wings" program) but I know two F86 veterans who have both told me that they were told the F86 would bust up if they ever tried it ( I got ahold of both of them yesterday). With the F86 this is essentially a stunt that has to be accomplished by starting high and ending high to prevent pulling out in thick lower level air with all of the compressability problems that might bring. I think this is why they told the then active pilots never to try it.
 
The fact that Welch might have accomplished this with a mod-1 prototype says allot about the F86 as a fundamentally good design that they got right early in the project!
 
I am betting the Air Force didn't want to give credit for breaking the sound barrier to a civilian test pilot flying a prototype so they kept mum about who did what when (they had that big X1 budget to justify!). That said, if Yeager was a stand-up guy he would have given credit where it was due along time ago. By the time the movie "Right Stuff" and his book "Yeager" came out there was no USAF imperative to keep the truth under wraps. He should have come clean.
 
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Rocky
 
 
 
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John Barry       11/30/2007 1:33:18 PM
Question- Doesn't talk about breaking the sound barrier usually refer to, "Breaking the sound barrier in level flight"?   So anything in a dive wouldn't count.  I thought I remember hearing that some pilots in WW2 came close to the barrier with a  prop plane in a dive. I think it was the Mustang but I'm not sure.  Does anyone know if this is true? 
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Physics   11/30/2007 2:14:50 PM

Question- Doesn't talk about breaking the sound barrier usually refer to, "Breaking the sound barrier in level flight"?   So anything in a dive wouldn't count.  I thought I remember hearing that some pilots in WW2 came close to the barrier with a  prop plane in a dive. I think it was the Mustang but I'm not sure.  Does anyone know if this is true? 


It is impossible for a prop plane to break the compression barrier at the speed of sound. At high speeds the 'Stang's tail would lock up and you would be left with a big hole in the ground but never really get near to breaking the speed of sound. Same for other types.
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Rocky
 
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