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Subject: Countdown to Crying
displacedjim    10/15/2007 11:31:39 AM
How broken up will some StrategyPage posters be when the F-35 program office finally reveals the F-35 elecronic warfare suite will include not only state-of-the-art ESM but also state-of-the-art ECM, ECM that will include not only the very powerful X-band jamming capabilities that will be found in the APG-81 AESA radar, but also include both on-board jamming and towed decoys? If that day arrives, then so much for the F-35 "only" having an RCS of something like 0.002dBsm using "only" passive stealth (which of course already won't be the case in X-band). Won't it be funny if everyone sees that the formula for success with the F-35 is VLO + ECM = nearly invisible to RF? I admit I'll be disappointed if this doesn't turn out to be true... but I also admit I'm going to be ROFLMAO if it does turn out to be true. Keep your eyes on Electronics & Integrated Solutions, which both makes the latest ALE-55 towed decoy and also happens to be "responsible for the F-35's electronic warfare suite and is also providing advanced, low-observable aperatures and countermeasure systems."
 
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cosmoxl_2       10/15/2007 1:03:45 PM
<sarcasm> Surely France is preparing something even better for the Rafale </sarcasm>
 
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Aussiegunner1       10/16/2007 9:53:03 AM

How broken up will some StrategyPage posters be when the F-35 program office finally reveals the F-35 elecronic warfare suite will include not only state-of-the-art ESM but also state-of-the-art ECM, ECM that will include not only the very powerful X-band jamming capabilities that will be found in the APG-81 AESA radar, but also include both on-board jamming and towed decoys? If that day arrives, then so much for the F-35 "only" having an RCS of something like 0.002dBsm using "only" passive stealth (which of course already won't be the case in X-band). Won't it be funny if everyone sees that the formula for success with the F-35 is VLO + ECM = nearly invisible to RF? I admit I'll be disappointed if this doesn't turn out to be true... but I also admit I'm going to be ROFLMAO if it does turn out to be true.

Keep your eyes on Electronics & Integrated Solutions, which both makes the latest ALE-55 towed decoy and also happens to be "responsible for the F-35's electronic warfare suite and is also providing advanced, low-observable aperatures and countermeasure systems."

How broken up some predominantly American and French SP posters will be, when they finally realise that they have spent so much time having immature cyberpissing contests over aircraft that they will never get to fly ...
 
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french stratege       10/16/2007 11:03:22 AM
How broken up will some StrategyPage posters be when the F-35 program office finally reveals the F-35 elecronic warfare suite will include not only state-of-the-art ESM but also state-of-the-art ECM, ECM that will include not only the very powerful X-band jamming capabilities that will be found in the APG-81 AESA radar,
To be clear.You can use you AESA radar to jam but it is very limited as a capacity as it jam in a very narrow band.
Most systems are likely to be outside this band.Moreover it is restricted to frontal sector where RCS is already the best. 
Jammer use wide band MMIC (or tubes) with likely 360° coverage.Radar use power narrow band.

but also include both on-board jamming and towed decoys?
Two different capabilties. 

If that day arrives, then so much for the F-35 "only" having an RCS of something like 0.002dBsm (IN FRONT !) using "only" passive stealth (which of course already won't be the case in X-band). Won't it be funny if everyone sees that the formula for success with the F-35 is VLO + ECM = nearly invisible to RF? I admit I'll be disappointed if this doesn't turn out to be true... but I also admit I'm going to be ROFLMAO if it does turn out to be true.
Again I have to explain you you have two basic jamming strategies:
-power jamming to order to blind (which is ridiculous with a stealth aircraft as you make useless the money you spend to get stealth capability)
-deception jamming where you can integrate that with aircraft EW signature like Rafale.(probably used on B2)
It is the only strategy which make sense with LO aircrafts.You do low power deception jamming and it is why a low RCS make it even more efficient has your jammer can be very low power so more affordable (less associated costs of power electronic) and so you can multiply jammer to jam in a wide band several multiple sources.You make false returns in radar return stobes which can mimic the incoming signals and send false replicas on the same power of return signal..The lower is RCS and the lower is power used for jamming.Evolution could be even inverse replica (cancelling return echo: active cancellation).
Jamming is "stealth" (or discret) as it is not stronguer than normal return.
This strategy is also interesting to counter future antistealth ultra high resolution radars (low RCS of today US fighters is given for an averaged RCS and not a detailled RCS) to jam selectively in stronguer radar return pikes to deny high resolution radar imaging.
It could be very interesting for a plane like F35.
However it would add price (several million $ per aircraft) and would maybe reduce from 40 km to 20or 15 ennemy radar range and so give F35 a stealth performance even better than F22.
Now developing a coupled jammer-EW signature strategy and jamming device cost several billion $ (For Rafale program it is said to have cost 1/5th or even 1/4th developement cost according rumors so several B?).

A: I don't think that USA would spend this additional money for F35 only to give it a better stealth than F22 and add 10% to price of F35 (then it could also have bad implications on F22).Moreover USA did not spend money to have internal jammer on F16 for AtoA combat in the past so it is unlikely they would do that.
F35 goal was affordable stealth.USA could have got a F22 like stealth and they did not gave that for affordability and they would spend more to get an objective they did not seek initially?

B: I don't think that USA would export it (France do not export full Spectra modes according to our National Assembly defense commission hearing).
You can theorically make F35 better in stealth.I bet the money will not be spend here.
F35 would be better in stealth than evolved Rafale (improvement of RCS+future spectra).
Saying evolved Rafale would be detected at 40 km and such F35 at 15km.However detection can be done with IRST at much better distance and it would not change that
I think to add a DIRCM would make more sense than adding such jammer. (AT the end your F35 become very expensive with all options).

Keep your eyes on Electronics & Integrated Solutions, which both makes the latest ALE-55 towed decoy and also happens to be "responsible for the F-35's electronic warfare suite and is also providing advanced, low-observable aperatures and countermeasure systems."
Towed decoy (far less costly) make more sense (or a expendable towed decoys like those used on Grippen: the decoy is ejected, is commanded by a wire, and worke few dozen seconds like a chaff, then wire broke and decoys is expanded) but it do not add "active stealthiness" on aircraft.But it is good mainly to counter missiles with EW seekers
 
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french stratege       10/16/2007 11:11:22 AM
Radar use power narrow band MMIC
 
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Phaid       10/16/2007 11:12:44 AM
France do not export full Spectra modes according to our National Assembly defense commission hearing

France do not export any Spectra modes at all. 
 
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Phaid       10/16/2007 11:21:09 AM
But seriously,

I don't think that USA would export it

Oh but there is ample precedent to show that the U.S. would in fact export it.  The U.S. already exports superior EW suites like Falcon Edge on the Block 60 F-16, which is superior to the tactical fighter EW suites anybody else has.  And most of the F-16s and F-15s sold abroad had internal jammers even when their USAF counterparts did not.
 
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displacedjim       10/16/2007 11:38:38 AM

France do not export full Spectra modes according to our National Assembly defense commission hearing

France do not export any Spectra modes at all. 


 
ROFLMAO already!!!
 
Best line so far this week, probably this month.  Keep 'em coming, Phaid.
 
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displacedjim       10/16/2007 11:53:23 AM

But seriously,

I don't think that USA would export it

Oh but there is ample precedent to show that the U.S. would in fact export it.  The U.S. already exports superior EW suites like Falcon Edge on the Block 60 F-16, which is superior to the tactical fighter EW suites anybody else has.  And most of the F-16s and F-15s sold abroad had internal jammers even when their USAF counterparts did not.

And of course I will also still go back to a point I've tried to raise a couple times before, which is that to claim the F-35 doesn't--according to current open source knowledge-- use any jamming other than X-band jamming within the APG-81's footprint isa technically correct statement, but it is not a complete answer by a long shot with regard to F-35s in USAF/USN/USMC use.  It may be pretty much true for several of the nations that America will export many hundreds of F-35 to, but our F-35s certainly will have access to plenty of jamming in pretty much every scenario.  And power jamming that most certainly does effectively reduce the F-35's RCS to quite a bit less than what it achieves passively at all aspects *does* make a very great deal of sense when that jamming is off-board from stand-in and stand-off jamming sources.  A recently-cited document in another thread showed how off-board jamming greatly improves the ability of strike aircraft to penetrate an IADS, and we have that capability.
 
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french stratege       10/16/2007 12:00:21 PM
The U.S. already exports superior EW suites like Falcon Edge on the Block 60 F-16, which is superior to the tactical fighter EW suites anybody else has. 
False.Not superior than those of Rafale or Eurofighter for example but really inferior (no integration with RCS pattern since F16 is not LO, no LP beam jamming... ).
And USA keep the software for their so UAE are entirely dependant on US updates to provide ECM software modules and libraries.
h*tp://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj00/fal00/phifal00.htm
The source codes that program the electronic-warfare, radar, and data buses are extremely controversial since the United States never exports them; instead, we will send UAE the ?object codes,? which will allow it to add to the F-16?s threat library (see http://www.clw.org/cat/pr11-15-99.html).
 
In the case of F16 they have done that since UAE would have bought Rafale instead.USA had no choice.
I still doubt for export unless USA face a competitors good enough.
And the develop cost is an issue if US do not order it as cost is a magnitude bigger than a conventional jammer.
See
h*tps://research.maxwell.af.mil/papers/ay2000/saas/molloy.pdf
Page 71 where potential sale of rafale weighted 4 in scoreboard of exporting F16 block 60
 (but do you read document I provide here?).
If Rafale is not good enough to counter a F35 with stealth jamming, why would USA would pay such a costly development and export it? Unlikely for me unless Russian would propose a F35 competitor stealthier for a market like India.
 
 
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Phaid       10/16/2007 12:11:15 PM
And of course I will also still go back to a point I've tried to raise a couple times before, which is that to claim the F-35 doesn't--according to current open source knowledge-- use any jamming other than X-band jamming within the APG-81's footprint isa technically correct statement, but it is not a complete answer by a long shot with regard to F-35s in USAF/USN/USMC use.

Exactly.  This is why the aforementioned e.g. F-16s were exported to other countries with internal DECM suites while the USAF ones largely were not so equipped -- because the operational concept is different here than there.  It wouldn't be at all surprising to see the same thing happen on F-35s.

A recently-cited document in another thread showed how off-board jamming greatly improves the ability of strike aircraft to penetrate an IADS, and we have that capability.


It seems some people have a hard time overcoming that single-platform mentality.

Look at what F-22s were doing during Northern Edge.  They would fly ahead of the EA-6Bs, detect a radar threat before the EA-6B could detect it on its own, and cue the EA-6B to act on the threat while safely out of harm's way.  Now the radar has to deal with jamming (or worse) that has nothing to do with the F-22.  IMO that's a lot better than some internal EW suite that can only react after the aircraft is already lit up.
 
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