Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Rafale : ASSM missile adding new possibilities
Bluewings12    8/8/2007 5:47:37 PM
Just found that (zoom in) : h*tp://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aw/dti0407/index.php?startpage=46 Basically , we now have a SEAD capability with Rafale . Something France has been looking for a long time . Good news ! More the Pilots learn about the Aircraft and its weaponry , more they find what can be done with it . And the F3 is not there yet ... It looks very promissing :-) Cheers .
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2
Bluewings12       8/8/2007 6:12:16 PM
Btw , have you ever read the stuff from Chris Yeo when he first flew the Rafale ?
(Chris Yeo was a Brirish test pilot for the Typhoon)

It is rather long but well worth the read if you like Jets ;-)

""Prototype fighters are usually first seen by the public at air shows. They are presented in an optimum configuration without large, heavy, drag-producing external stores and with a reduced fuel load to minimise gross weight.Recognition of the multirole nature of modern combat aircraft has resulted in more and more air displays with external stores fitted. These performances show what the aircraft's capabilities are in close combat near the end of a sortie .

This is only part of the story, however. Front-line fighters are expected to be capable of more than one role and will be certificated to carry a wide range of external stores including bombs, missiles and pods. Even a pure fighter will normally be loaded with external fuel tanks to extend the basic aircraft's range and endurance. The aircraft and pilot will then be required to fly and fight in these heavy configurations.

To be used effectively, the flight control system (FCS) must still allow the aircraft to be flown aggressively, with as little restriction on the allowable manoeuvre envelope as is practical. Fighter pilots have long known that, if they can force an enemy to drop its external stores, the attack has been neutralised - whatever the outcome of the resulting combat.

The aircraft in this test, the tandem-seat Rafale BO1 powered by two 16,850lb (75kN) thrust (with reheat) Snecma M88-2 engines, was at the time of my flight being prepared for display at the Paris air show with an impressive range of fuel tanks and armaments fitted under the wings.

The test configuration included three 2,000litre (530USgal) fuel tanks, two SCALP cruise missiles weighing 1,300kg (2,860lb) each and four Mica fire-and-forget air-to-air missiles. For a small aircraft such as the Rafale, this is a heavy load - but one that promises to allow a thorough evaluation of the aircraft's flight control system and performance.

Prototype weight limit

Prototype Rafales are limited to a maximum take-off weight of 19,500kg, although, after a modification to the undercarriage, the production aircraft will be cleared to 22,500kg. Eventually, the maximum take-off weight may be further increased to 24,500kg. The empty weight of the aircraft was 10,000kg, with the external stores contributing a further 4,500kg to give a weight without fuel of 14,500kg. The maximum fuel load that could be carried was therefore 5,000kg, of which 800litres, weighing 680kg, was in the centreline fuel tank.

The prototypes have been tested to 22,500kg using air-to-air refuelling (AAR) to top up the external tanks. This is commonplace because it extends the duration and productivity of test sorties and allows several test points to be achieved in one flight at maximum weight. For this flight, the aircraft had a fixed refuelling probe fitted to the right side of the nose ahead of the cockpit. The Rafale FCS has a sub-mode tailored for AAR.

BO1 is the only two-seat Rafale prototype and has performed 990 flights since it first flew in mid-1992. The four Rafale prototypes (two air force versions and two navy) are fitted with test equipment that allows them to be used in any part of the test programme. However, individual aircraft have tended to be specialised to some degree.

BO1 has been used for flight envelope expansion and weapons systems tests, including Mica firings and SCALP separation demonstrations.

It has also been used to examine systems specific to the two-seat aircraft. Of these, perhaps the FCS is the most interesting to pilots. Because the control columns and rudders are not linked, some form of priority protocol must be established, otherwise an instructor and a pupil with diametrically opposed views of the best input for the current situation will achieve only a neutral result.

In the Rafale, the front-seat pilot has a switch that gives priority to either the front or rear cockpit. The rear pilot can use a paddle on his control column to totally override the front pilot. A small light on the left glareshield confirms the instructor's actions to the pupil.

This test flight was made from the Istres flight test centre, near Marseilles. Yves Kerherve, Dassault Aviation's chief test pilot, occupied the rear cockpit. The flying clothing used included a conventional g suit, without leg restraint garters - these are built into the Martin Baker Mk16 seat - and an upper body jacket (still called a Mae West, even in French), with arm restraint.

This level of equipment is fairly hot to wear, but was surprisingly comfortable and easy to put on. The helmet was close-fitting and light, an absolute essential

 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       8/8/2007 6:53:24 PM
Well .. It looks like nobody wants to comment .
Is it because Rafale looks like the best Multi role Aircraft ever built ?
;-)

Cheers .

 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       8/8/2007 7:01:02 PM

Just found that (zoom in) :
h*tp://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aw/dti0407/index.php?startpage=46

Basically , we now have a SEAD capability with Rafale . Something France has been looking for a long time . Good news !
More the Pilots learn about the Aircraft and its weaponry , more they find what can be done with it . And the F3 is not there yet ...
It looks very promissing :-)

Cheers .

AASM is a nice system, but you need to know in advance where the SAM or radar is that you are trying to destroy.  So it's a very limited SEAD capability.  You would still need some kind of antiradiation missile to deal with threats you don't know about in advance.

 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       8/8/2007 7:14:47 PM
Phaid :
""AASM is a nice system, but you need to know in advance where the SAM or radar is that you are trying to destroy""

Rafale has a nice system to detect and pinpoint those threats : SPECTRA .
It gives the Pilot everything he needs and more , including a fire solution (GPS) for ASSM to be fired .
Of course , you cannot fire ASSM "in the blind" like ALARM (exemple) , it is not designed for .

Cheers .


 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       8/9/2007 11:42:15 AM
No, you cannot use SPECTRA alone to target radar emitters, because it gives only bearing information.  If the aircraft is equipped with OSF, you could slew the OSF to the emitter's bearing and get a solution that way, assuming the emitter was within the OSF's field of view and in range of the OSF's laser rangefinder.  This would work better with a dedicated IR/laser targeting pod though.  And either way, cueing optical sensors onto a SAM site is a pretty dangerous way to do SEAD because by the time it is in range of your sensors, you are most definitely in range of the SAM.
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       8/9/2007 1:05:33 PM
Phaid , all you just said is true , no point to disagree .
But to do what I said , you only need 2 Rafales to get an accurate GPS position on the SAM as it is mostly a static target .

Btw , some SAMs are short range systems and can be tracked by OSF beyond their capabilities .

Cheers .

 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       8/9/2007 3:42:10 PM
But to do what I said , you only need 2 Rafales to get an accurate GPS position on the SAM as it is mostly a static target .

Not really.  There is no indication that Rafales have anything like this capability.

On the other hand, even if they could network together this way, it wouldn't be accurate enough.  SPECTRA is widely reported as being able to calculate the bearing of an emitter to a precision of one degree.  At a range of 40km, which is required in order to safely engage the SA-2 and SA-3 missiles the article discusses, that is still over 600 meters of error.  The error will be compounded when using multiple RWRs.  This is not nearly precise enough to target an antenna with a GPS-guided 500 lb bomb.
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       8/9/2007 7:59:18 PM
Phaid :
""Not really.  There is no indication that Rafales have anything like this capability.
On the other hand, even if they could network together this way, it wouldn't be accurate enough.  SPECTRA is widely reported as being able to calculate the bearing of an emitter to a precision of one degree.  At a range of 40km, which is required in order to safely engage the SA-2 and SA-3 missiles the article discusses, that is still over 600 meters of error.  The error will be compounded when using multiple RWRs.  This is not nearly precise enough to target an antenna with a GPS-guided 500 lb bomb.""

Rafale has this capability , or I should say 2 Rafales have the capability . Realtime computing between 2 sources allow for precise GPS targeting . It you take onboard the one degree precision at 40km from 2 Rafales , you get a 20m accuracy for a GPS ASSM launch . That 's not bad when you think about it ,  a 20m impact is bound to destroy something ...
Each Rafale fire an ASSM and it is a done deal I guess .

Cheers .

 
Quote    Reply

Herald1234       8/9/2007 10:25:39 PM

Phaid :

""Not really.  There is no indication that Rafales have anything like this capability.
On
the other hand, even if they could network together this way, it
wouldn't be accurate enough.  SPECTRA is widely reported as being able
to calculate the bearing of an emitter to a precision of one degree. 
At a range of 40km, which is required in order to safely engage the
SA-2 and SA-3 missiles the article discusses, that is still over 600
meters of error.  The error will be compounded when using multiple
RWRs.  This is not nearly precise enough to target an antenna with a
GPS-guided 500 lb bomb.""



Rafale has this capability , or I should say 2 Rafales have the capability . Realtime computing between 2 sources allow for precise GPS targeting . It you take onboard the one degree
precision at 40km from 2 Rafales , you get a 20m accuracy for a GPS
ASSM launch . That 's not bad when you think about it ,  a 20m
impact is bound to destroy something ...

Each Rafale fire an ASSM and it is a done deal I guess .



Cheers .





Check your math again.
 
One ranging error + one ranging error = two ranging errors.   
 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       8/10/2007 9:22:25 AM
Rafale has this capability , or I should say 2 Rafales have the capability . Realtime computing between 2 sources allow for precise GPS targeting . It you take onboard the one degree precision at 40km from 2 Rafales , you get a 20m accuracy for a GPS ASSM launch . That 's not bad when you think about it ,  a 20m impact is bound to destroy something ...  Each Rafale fire an ASSM and it is a done deal I guess .

As I said, there is no indication Rafale can do this.  If they could, they wouldn't rely on visual sensors to do the targeting, and French pilots themselves say that is exactly what they do.

And where on earth do you get a 20m accuracy at 40km using triangulation of two sensors whose precision is one degree?  As I said, one degree at 40km is over six hundred meters.  The best case you can hope for is if the two Rafale are 90 degrees apart relative to the SAM site, in which case your target is roughly a box 600 meters by 600 meters.  The closer together the two aircraft are and your target zone gets bigger as the range uncertainty gets worse.
 
Quote    Reply
1 2



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics