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Subject: India takes a hit over Russian fighters
Softwar    5/23/2007 11:25:27 AM
link South Asia May 24, 2007 India takes a hit over Russian fighters By Sudha Ramachandran BANGALORE - India's relations with Russia have hit an air pocket, with the Russians seeking to renegotiate the terms of a US$8.5 billion deal to supply India with Sukhoi fighter aircraft. The new pricing terms that the Russians are proposing would require India to fork out another half-billion dollars. Under the deal to supply the multi-role combat aircraft to India, Russia's Irkutsk Corp has already supplied 60 Su-30s. Russia is willing to deliver another 40 fighters at the cost escalation of 2.55% per annum as agreed under the original deal. However, for the remaining 138 Su-30s to be assembled by the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Russia wants the cost-escalation rate to be hiked to a minimum of 5%. India and Russia both need the deal, so a compromise is likely, such as settling for a cost-escalation rate of about 4%, above the current 2.55% but below the 5% now being demanded. Or India could pay in euros. But a bitter taste will remain. Russia is also considering increasing the cost of the 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov (renamed by India as INS Vikramaditya) that it was to make available to India by August 2008. The proposed price rises were conveyed to a delegation of top Indian officials that was in Moscow last week. This has injected a perceptible chill into India-Russia ties. Except for a few years following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990, when relations cooled, India's relationship with Moscow has been close. For decades, India has viewed Moscow as a reliable friend that backed its development priorities and provided its defense forces with most of its hardware. While trade and economic cooperation were important parts of the bilateral relationship, it was the military component that constituted the backbone of the friendship. The friendship has survived despite India's warming relations with the United States in recent years. It is Russia that remains India's top military partner, notching up annual sales worth $1.5 billion, and it is with the Russians that Delhi's cooperation has more depth. The multibillion-dollar Sukhoi program is said to be the largest in Indo-Russian military cooperation, which has contributed immensely to India's indigenization efforts. In another example, the BrahMos missile, which has been co-produced by India's Defense Research and Development Organization and Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia, will be jointly exported by the end of this year. The Indian Air Force loves its Sukhois for their domination of the skies. The Sukhois have replaced the Russian MiG-21s as the mainstay of India's fighter fleet. Four contracts have been signed since 1995 for the supply of Sukhois; the first provided for the purchase of eight Su-30K and 40 Su-30 MKI, the second of 10 Su-30 K, the third for licensed production of 140 Su-30 MKI, and the most recent in March for 40 Su-30 MKI. What has irked India now is not only the hike in the cost of the fighters but also the suddenness with which the Russians raised the issue. As recently as March, the Russians had not indicated any problem with the cost-escalation rate of 2.55%, complain officials. The Russians attribute the higher costs to the depreciation of the US dollar and the strengthening of the ruble, as well as double-digit inflation in Russia. As for the Gorshkov, it seems that the aircraft carrier will arrive only around 2010 instead of next year. Refurbished at a cost of $1.5 billion, which includes 16 MiG 29K aircraft, the Gorshkov project is now going into a cost overrun of more than $113 million - and there were no provisions for this in the contract. Last week, the Russians told the Indian delegation that the delivery of Gorshkov is being held up by a funds crunch at the Sevmash shipyard in northern Russia, where the carrier is being refurbished. They said the shipyard had grossly underestimated the length of cabling the carrier needed. The Russians told India that if it wants the carrier delivered on time, Delhi will have to cough up more. India is concerned with the delay as its other aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, is due for retirement soon. Indian officials point out that much has changed in Russia's dealings with India. In the past, Moscow might have indulged India with "friendly prices" and allowed a foreign-exchange-strapped India to pay for purchases in rupees. But today things are different: Moscow wants to hike rates after contracts are finalized. Yet Russia says little has changed in its approach to India. With regard to the cost escalation for the Sukhois, it says that as a special gesture to India, it will consider reducing the proposed rate of 5% to 4.5%. It has also said it will continue with the current 2.55% annual escalation rate if India is willing to pay with the more stable eur
 
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gf0012-aust       6/13/2007 5:36:25 AM


incoming!

 
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Herald1234       6/13/2007 7:35:05 AM




LCA




General characteristics






Performance






Myth,
in your exuberance you forgot the ferry range. LCA is also the only
aircraft in the world which has a 95% of its surface area made from
composites. Composites = lower RCS, lower weight. Lower weight = lower
size = lower RCS.

It is also the smallest 4th gen fighter in the world = lower RCS. Did
it ever occur to you that the LCA was specifically designed for this ?
A B-52 will dwarf any JF-17 or J-10 in the specs that you have used,
range, payload, ceiling. etc etc.

What matters is what the aircraft was designed for and its avionics and aerodynamic performance. The entire avionics package of the LCA is available in the public for
comparison, but unfortunately, not much detail about the J-10 is
available except what they will buy next from the Russians or the
Israelis, which ofcourse gives our internet PLA warriors the ability to
make any claims they want about their latest Death Star. An LCA will not
only see the opposing J-10&JF-17 first, but also shoot first.



"The LCA is constructed of aluminium-lithium alloys..., carbon-fibre composites... (CFC), and titanium...-alloy steels. The Tejas employs CFC materials for up to 45% of its airframe by weight, including in the fuselage... (doors and skins), wings (skin, spars and ribs), elevons..., tailfin..., rudder..., airbrakes... and landing gear...
doors. Composites are used to make an aircraft both lighter and
stronger at the same time compared to an all-metal design, and the
LCA's percentage employment of CFCs is one of the highest among
contemporary aircraft of its class.[30]... Apart from making the plane much lighter, there are also fewer joints... or rivets..., which increases the aircraft's reliability and lowers its susceptibility to structural fatigue... cracks."




India is miles ahead of China in composite fabrication tech.


LCA




  • Eight external stations: three hardpoints under each wing, one
    fuselage centreline hardpoint, and one station beneath the port-side
    intake trunk for a pod (FLIR..., IRST..., Quote    Reply

RockyMTNClimber    France & India   6/13/2007 3:29:03 PM




 



If France could ever get their Rafale 100% into multi role mode this could be a place where they could get some business. Grippen would be a great choice.



 



As I understand it western firghters are more expensive to aquire but their quality and warranty is much better making them less expensive over time.



 



I would love to see Sukhoi crash and burn over this.



 



Check Six



 



Rocky





lol, oh yeah, I keep on forgetting that the Rafale is a vastly superior platform to MiG-29 and even Su-30...   (*rolls eyes*)!!

 
Boris,
I did not infer that the Rafale is vastly superior to the Mig's & Sukhoi's in current service with India. There are in fact many good reasons for India to keep using Russian equipment. They have a long track record with them and an institutional knowledge of them that make continued use of them logical.
 
What I am saying is that this: France needs to do something to jump start sales of the Rafale. Somewhere France needs to plant some seeds with a major airforce/navy (Morrocco is nice but too small a player to make a big splash). India might be an opportunity? India will have an new aircraft carrier soon too.
 
Although Russian equipment is less expensive to initially aquire, I understand over the life time of the aircraft western aircraft like the Rafale would probably be less expensive to operate and personally I would rather see France make a major sale in India (or maybe Sweden with her Grippen) than Russia.
 
Given India's long and distinguished history with Russian aircraft I did not say it was likely to happen either.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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Aussiegunner1       6/17/2007 1:05:51 AM

is that they don't have a robust industrial/technology base to build their own modern 4th generation fighters.  In fact there are major technical/project management issues encountered by HAL even in the assembly of Russian provided kits with 2 assembled SU-30s delivered after 6 years.    The LCA, if it is eventually deployed(~2012), represents an early 4th generation aircraft whose basic performance is outclassed by the JF-17, which itself is a lower-end, made-for-export fighter.  Thus, the IAF ends up being dependent on supplier nations, but the country isn't always loyal to the supplier nation.  When India cozys up to the U.S, Russia sees that and acts appropriately.  If the IAF wants a robust supply of adequate fighter aircraft it needs to do one of 2 things:

 

1.  Become an obediant vassal state to one of the supplier nations(doesn't matter which one, just stop playing around)

 

2.  Build up a robust and independent military industrial base for itself and become a power in it's own right.

 

 

 

 

 

That broadly sum's it up. India's leaders, as usual, are trying to throw around diplomatic weight that they just don't have... must be that obsession with status that permeates Indian culture. At the moment they have to be prepared to accept that they can't have everything they want. Buy cheap Russian gear and you get shoddy workmanship, inferior quailty and big delays. Buy superior American gear and you have to live with them  possibly using parts sales to meddle in your politics in the future.
 
Thats why they the obvious solution for them is to buy more French gear. They already operate Mirage 2000's which are more advanced than their Sukhois in many ways, so why not take the obvious next step to Rafales? To a non-aligned nation, the French offer the best combination of non-interferance in your politics and quality equipment, though you have to live with the fact that they will sell gear to virtually anybody (except Israel). 
 
On that issue, I reckon India should just get over the issue with the Americans (and anybody else) selling to Pakistan. A few F-16's aren't a major threat... not nearly as much as much larger Russian sales of Sukhois to the PRC potentially are. And, at the end of the day Pakistan has a right to defend itself.


 
 
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