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Subject: India takes a hit over Russian fighters
Softwar    5/23/2007 11:25:27 AM
link South Asia May 24, 2007 India takes a hit over Russian fighters By Sudha Ramachandran BANGALORE - India's relations with Russia have hit an air pocket, with the Russians seeking to renegotiate the terms of a US$8.5 billion deal to supply India with Sukhoi fighter aircraft. The new pricing terms that the Russians are proposing would require India to fork out another half-billion dollars. Under the deal to supply the multi-role combat aircraft to India, Russia's Irkutsk Corp has already supplied 60 Su-30s. Russia is willing to deliver another 40 fighters at the cost escalation of 2.55% per annum as agreed under the original deal. However, for the remaining 138 Su-30s to be assembled by the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Russia wants the cost-escalation rate to be hiked to a minimum of 5%. India and Russia both need the deal, so a compromise is likely, such as settling for a cost-escalation rate of about 4%, above the current 2.55% but below the 5% now being demanded. Or India could pay in euros. But a bitter taste will remain. Russia is also considering increasing the cost of the 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov (renamed by India as INS Vikramaditya) that it was to make available to India by August 2008. The proposed price rises were conveyed to a delegation of top Indian officials that was in Moscow last week. This has injected a perceptible chill into India-Russia ties. Except for a few years following the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990, when relations cooled, India's relationship with Moscow has been close. For decades, India has viewed Moscow as a reliable friend that backed its development priorities and provided its defense forces with most of its hardware. While trade and economic cooperation were important parts of the bilateral relationship, it was the military component that constituted the backbone of the friendship. The friendship has survived despite India's warming relations with the United States in recent years. It is Russia that remains India's top military partner, notching up annual sales worth $1.5 billion, and it is with the Russians that Delhi's cooperation has more depth. The multibillion-dollar Sukhoi program is said to be the largest in Indo-Russian military cooperation, which has contributed immensely to India's indigenization efforts. In another example, the BrahMos missile, which has been co-produced by India's Defense Research and Development Organization and Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia, will be jointly exported by the end of this year. The Indian Air Force loves its Sukhois for their domination of the skies. The Sukhois have replaced the Russian MiG-21s as the mainstay of India's fighter fleet. Four contracts have been signed since 1995 for the supply of Sukhois; the first provided for the purchase of eight Su-30K and 40 Su-30 MKI, the second of 10 Su-30 K, the third for licensed production of 140 Su-30 MKI, and the most recent in March for 40 Su-30 MKI. What has irked India now is not only the hike in the cost of the fighters but also the suddenness with which the Russians raised the issue. As recently as March, the Russians had not indicated any problem with the cost-escalation rate of 2.55%, complain officials. The Russians attribute the higher costs to the depreciation of the US dollar and the strengthening of the ruble, as well as double-digit inflation in Russia. As for the Gorshkov, it seems that the aircraft carrier will arrive only around 2010 instead of next year. Refurbished at a cost of $1.5 billion, which includes 16 MiG 29K aircraft, the Gorshkov project is now going into a cost overrun of more than $113 million - and there were no provisions for this in the contract. Last week, the Russians told the Indian delegation that the delivery of Gorshkov is being held up by a funds crunch at the Sevmash shipyard in northern Russia, where the carrier is being refurbished. They said the shipyard had grossly underestimated the length of cabling the carrier needed. The Russians told India that if it wants the carrier delivered on time, Delhi will have to cough up more. India is concerned with the delay as its other aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, is due for retirement soon. Indian officials point out that much has changed in Russia's dealings with India. In the past, Moscow might have indulged India with "friendly prices" and allowed a foreign-exchange-strapped India to pay for purchases in rupees. But today things are different: Moscow wants to hike rates after contracts are finalized. Yet Russia says little has changed in its approach to India. With regard to the cost escalation for the Sukhois, it says that as a special gesture to India, it will consider reducing the proposed rate of 5% to 4.5%. It has also said it will continue with the current 2.55% annual escalation rate if India is willing to pay with the more stable eur
 
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mithradates    the problem   5/23/2007 1:03:52 PM
is that they don't have a robust industrial/technology base to build their own modern 4th generation fighters.  In fact there are major technical/project management issues encountered by HAL even in the assembly of Russian provided kits with 2 assembled SU-30s delivered after 6 years.    The LCA, if it is eventually deployed(~2012), represents an early 4th generation aircraft whose basic performance is outclassed by the JF-17, which itself is a lower-end, made-for-export fighter.  Thus, the IAF ends up being dependent on supplier nations, but the country isn't always loyal to the supplier nation.  When India cozys up to the U.S, Russia sees that and acts appropriately.  If the IAF wants a robust supply of adequate fighter aircraft it needs to do one of 2 things:
 
1.  Become an obediant vassal state to one of the supplier nations(doesn't matter which one, just stop playing around)
 
2.  Build up a robust and independent military industrial base for itself and become a power in it's own right.
 
 
 
 
 
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Herald1234       5/24/2007 4:53:34 AM

is that they don't have a robust industrial/technology base to build their own modern 4th generation fighters.  In fact there are major technical/project management issues encountered by HAL even in the assembly of Russian provided kits with 2 assembled SU-30s delivered after 6 years.    The LCA, if it is eventually deployed(~2012), represents an early 4th generation aircraft whose basic performance is outclassed by the JF-17, which itself is a lower-end, made-for-export fighter.  Thus, the IAF ends up being dependent on supplier nations, but the country isn't always loyal to the supplier nation.  When India cozys up to the U.S, Russia sees that and acts appropriately.  If the IAF wants a robust supply of adequate fighter aircraft it needs to do one of 2 things:

 

1.  Become an obediant vassal state to one of the supplier nations(doesn't matter which one, just stop playing around)

 

2.  Build up a robust and independent military industrial base for itself and become a power in it's own right.

 

 

 

 


3. Stop playing Brahmin politics in DRDO and listen to the quite talented engineers.
4. Privatize.
5. Never become anyone's stooge not America's, or especially the PRCs. Better the logistics chaos now than dependency on ANYONE.
6. Remember that India gets more out of its working Russian and Indian designed gear than any Pakistani  stooge or PRC ever got out of PRC junk, or even the American gear which he is equipped or stole. I put my money on the well trained Indian pilot in a Mig 21; that he has a better than even chance against a PRC, or a Pakistani in a piece of PRC junk like the JF-17.
 
And of course understand that advice from a PRC bandit is worthless. 
Herald
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Opportunity   5/24/2007 11:15:53 AM
 
If France could ever get their Rafale 100% into multi role mode this could be a place where they could get some business. Grippen would be a great choice.
 
As I understand it western firghters are more expensive to aquire but their quality and warranty is much better making them less expensive over time.
 
I would love to see Sukhoi crash and burn over this.
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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blitZ    Are you Kidding me ??!!   5/24/2007 12:59:09 PM
Ok Myth, time to bust some more of your myths. Some basic research is a pre-requisite before you state speculation as facts.

LCA is not only more advanced than the JF-17, but its technologically more advanced than the PLAAFs new pride, the J-10 as well.

LCA outclasses J-10 in everything, and i mean everything except the Payload and Range.
link
link

link
link

Now you will argue with, oh Wiki and FAS are public sources, not everything is known about the J-10 etc etc.
Well genius, show us something better, if you have it.

 
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blitZ    Are you Kidding me ??!!   5/24/2007 1:02:15 PM
God why dont the links ever work on SP ?
Well anyways, go to any open source military websites and compare J-10 and LCA. I don't even need to post the links.

 
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blitZ    Are you Kidding me ??!!   5/24/2007 1:07:50 PM
Myth, as for your building better weapons in house, DRDO might be a slow behemoth, but it produces weapons that are anyday superior to the reverse engineered PLA copies.

Example: LCA > J-10
              Arjun > Type-99

I will not post links for any of these, because your ignorance and lack of BASIC research before posting BS is irritating me now. Its everywhere on the net, go find out yourself.

 
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mithradates    Reply to Blitz   5/24/2007 2:26:13 PM

Myth, as for your building better weapons in house, DRDO might be a slow behemoth, but it produces weapons that are anyday superior to the reverse engineered PLA copies.

Example: LCA > J-10
              Arjun > Type-99

I will not post links for any of these, because your ignorance and lack of BASIC research before posting BS is irritating me now. Its everywhere on the net, go find out yourself.


Ok, I would like to respectfully disagree with your opinions. 
 
In the matter of the Arjun, a simple statement like Arjun > T-99 makes no sense.  A more clear assertion to make would be
"the Arjun fits the IA's specific requirements better than the T-99 fits the PLA's requirements"
And it would be a false assertion at that.
 
Arjun:
  h!tp://www.indianexpress.com/story/16589.html
h!tp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/arjun.htm
h!tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun_MBT
h!tp://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article46.html
h!tp://www.hindu.com/2007/04/30/stories/2007043003261300.htm
 
I'm not an expert in armour, but there are some glaring shortcomings of the Arjun(some common to all tanks, some to India's local environment).  To go over the more obvious problems:
 
1.  Dependence on a obsolete custom modified imported german engine whose production line(in germany) has to be restarted and retooled.
2.  Dependence on an Ukranian imported FCS that was custom modified by the French(Indigenous FCS not ready for mass production yet).
3.  The Tank is too heavy to cross most bridges across India.
4.  The Tank is too heavy to travel effectively across much of southern India without bogging down.
5.  The Tank is too wide for current railroad/railcar transport infrastructure.  Custom railcars had to built an enormous cost just to haul around the prototypes 
6.  Dependence on Israeli LAHAT with uncertain supplies
7.  70% of the tank's cost is still foreign imported components (down from 90% 10 years ago which is good)
 
The following statement was made by an IA Brigadier D K Babbar 5 months ago concerning the Arjun:
 
"The Arjun tank has no future. It still cannot fire straight. The T-90, a far superior tank, can kill the Arjun. We would not cross any border with these tanks. "
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Your links don't seem to work, but I can provide some working references:
 
 
 but would like to contradict your statements.


 
 
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Herald1234       5/24/2007 3:34:29 PM
Arjun is the Sherman, or maybe the T-34/76 short barrewled gun model of of the Indian armor line of development.
 
It has powerpack and FCS issues. Mythn who reads this site vorciferously has regurgitiated the usual pap that he was spoonfed by his betters. Thus that information was substantially accurate.
 
What he did not address was that India tried in one leap to build a tank equivalent to the best Western tanks. They fell short, but not by much.
 
The Indian army needs tanks NOW. There is a violent dispute going on inside the Indian Army over what to buy because the old T-72s and Vickers tanks are reaching the end of their useful running lives. The T-90 is a working model that India could buy and use. The Arjun I is a tank that needs a lot of work to turn it into the Arjun II and would in US hands be either field modified to rectify engineering defects or would be put into limited procurementm for training while building the Arjun II which could take up to three years.
 
India's current decision to buy a couple of brigades worth of Arjuns opens up an Indian tank plant and gives shopfloor experience in building a native design tank. It makes sense along with the current buy of T-90s. Why? because for all of its weight and all of its inherent design defects the Arjun at least IS an Indian design. Now that the engineers know what they did wrong, they can tweak the tank design to install an air conditioner for the computer and rework the powerpack to move the tank across the ground better.
 
As for how the Arjun stacks up against a Type 99? If DRDO ever gets the ARJUN fire control to work, the Chinese monkey copy T-72/80 knockoff will be scrap metal. The Chicom tank has the usual engineering and manufacturing defects that one associates with NORINCO monkey copy imitations of Russian equipment. the armor package is substandard and the gun is a joke. Looks good in a parade though!
 
The T-99 should tip its hat quite nicely even to the T-90s that India is purchasing.
 
LCA
 
 
The article prewsents the case that the Kavieri engine is a roadblock. I see it as an indian opportunitym to do what the PRCs cannot, design and build a military rated jet engine. Once you have the first one under your belt, it becomes a skillset thatn you can keep.
 
The LCA should be about as good as the Mirage F1. That makes it far better than any PRC garbage flying. The Indians will still be confronted with integrating avionics, bombs, and missiles. That should prove to be interesting. Its something that THALES, MBDA, and EADS has shown a remarkable recent history in fubaring, so whether DRDO can figure it out without Israeli help should prove most interesting. Of course there is always Raytheon and Boeing...............
 
Herald    
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
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mithradates    additional reply   5/24/2007 4:00:42 PM
Why is the T-96/99 better for the PLA than Arjun is for the IA?  It's simply a much better fit for our army's specific needs:
 
h!tp://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type99specifications.asp
h!tp://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type96.asp
 
Cost:  T-99 is 2 million USD each, T-96 is 1.4 million USD each ( Arjun is 4 million USD)
 
Logistics:  70% components of T-99 share with T-96.  T-99/96 weight compatible with bridges/road/rail across all of China.  100% domestic manufactured.  Can be built quickly (280 T-99s, ~2400 T-96s in 7 years).
 
Operating Environment:   Operates effectively in all environments ranging from Tundra to Sub-tropical.  Weight range is effective (43 to 54 tons) is most Eurasian combat environments.
 
Performance:  Comparable general performance to early 3rd generation(T-96)  and to mature 3rd generation(T-99) world class tanks.
 
The T-96/T-99 is an economical, domestic, and flexible family of tank with acceptable combat performance. Designed with the PLA's needs in mind.  The Arjun is an expensive, significantly non-domestic tank with a very heavy logistical footprint.  It will however have better than acceptable combat performance if all the bugs have been worked out.
 
Now, I'm not an armour expert by any means, but it strikes me that the following capabilities are good to have:
 
1. Large numbers of tanks
2. Average/adquate firepower and armour protection
3. Having the means of quickly transporting large numbers of the tank
4. Having enough spare parts/munitions for those tanks 
5. The tank must be able to fight in all terrain suitable for armoured warfare.
 
These are all very important design considerations for a tank.  It would make very little sense to compromise 1,3,4,5 to just enhance 2.  This is why the T-96/T-98 is better for the PLA. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Herald1234       5/24/2007 5:07:17 PM

Why is the T-96/99 better for the PLA than Arjun is for the IA?  It's simply a much better fit for our army's specific needs:

 

h!tp://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type99specifications.asp

h!tp://www.sinodefence.com/army/tank/type96.asp

 

Cost:  T-99 is 2 million USD each, T-96 is 1.4 million USD each ( Arjun is 4 million USD)

 

Logistics:  70% components of T-99 share with T-96.  T-99/96 weight compatible with bridges/road/rail across all of China.  100% domestic manufactured.  Can be built quickly (280 T-99s, ~2400 T-96s in 7 years).

 

Operating Environment:   Operates effectively in all environments ranging from Tundra to Sub-tropical.  Weight range is effective (43 to 54 tons) is most Eurasian combat environments.

 

Performance:  Comparable general performance to early 3rd generation(T-96)  and to mature 3rd generation(T-99) world class tanks.

 

The T-96/T-99 is an economical, domestic, and flexible family of tank with acceptable combat performance. Designed with the PLA's needs in mind.  The Arjun is an expensive, significantly non-domestic tank with a very heavy logistical footprint.  It will however have better than acceptable combat performance if all the bugs have been worked out.

 

Now, I'm not an armour expert by any means, but it strikes me that the following capabilities are good to have:

 

1. Large numbers of tanks

2. Average/adquate firepower and armour protection

3. Having the means of quickly transporting large numbers of the tank

4. Having enough spare parts/munitions for those tanks 

5. The tank must be able to fight in all terrain suitable for armoured warfare.

 

These are all very important design considerations for a tank.  It would make very little sense to compromise 1,3,4,5 to just enhance 2.  This is why the T-96/T-98 is better for the PLA. 

 

 

 

 

 


In that pack of lies is onwe exceedingly obvious glaring one. The Type 99 is as depenmdent on RUSSIAN support or more so, than the Arjun is on German technical help.
The PRCs could no more claim domestic tank production than they can claim to be able to design a TV set without considerable foreign technical help and outright theft.
 
Herald
 
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