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Subject: Rafale to see combat in March
Phaid    2/16/2007 11:36:29 AM
Here is my tranlation of yesterday's article in Liberation concerning the Rafale's first combat deployment to Afghanistan. Link to follow. "Baptism of fire for the Rafales. The military is preparing to send five of these combat aircraft to Afghanistan, where they will provide close air support for NATO forces fighting against the Taliban. This will be the first real operational depployment of this new combat aircraft, which recently entered service. Three Rafale of the armee de l'air will be stationed at the Dushanbe air base in Tajikistan in mid-March. At the same time, two Rafales of the Marine Nationale will join the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, which is deployed off the coast of Pakistan. These five aircraft will operate over Afghanistan. The Armee de l'Air and the Marine Nationale are currently in the final stages of trials to permit the Rafale to drop laser-guided weapons. Indeed, in its initial version, and for budgetary reasons, the aircraft lacked this capability, which is nonetheless indispensable in all modern conflicts. Each Rafale can carry a payload of up to six 250kg (500 lb) bombs, but the target on the ground must be illuminated by another aircraft, either a Mirage 2000 or a Super Etendard. These air strike operations are in no way hypothetical. Since 2002, French aircraft have regularly participated in offensive missions in Afthanistan. With the declining situationon the ground, the Armee de l'Air has thus dropped 25 bombs since May of 2006. The last such attack took place Tuesday, with a Mirage 2000D dropping bombs at the request of Canadian special forces. For several months, a rivalry has existed between the Marine Nationale and the Armee de l'Air, each hoping to be the first to use the Rafale in combat. In the end, they will do it jointly. At Dassault, this deployment is being celebrated, as in the eyes of the manufacturer it should allow them to convince potential clients to buy the fighter-bomber. After several defeats (Netherlands, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Singapore), Dassault is hoping for sales in Switzerland, Greece, India, Morocco, and Libya."
 
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Shaken    How many Rafales on CdeG?   2/18/2007 5:34:58 AM

Three Rafale of the armee de l'air will be stationed at the Dushanbe air base in Tajikistan in mid-March. At the same time, two Rafales of the Marine Nationale will join the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, which is deployed off the coast of Pakistan. These five aircraft will operate over Afghanistan. 

I'm surprised there are only two Aeronavale Rafales committed. How many is the carrier routinely deploying with? Or is this merely a reflection of how many Rafale M's have been upgraded to the F2 standard?

Kudos to Dassault, the Aeronavale and Armee de l'Air on their success. Godspeed to the squadrons and our hopes go out for a safe return.

-- Shaken - out --

 
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Aussiegunner1    FS   2/18/2007 5:47:05 AM
"The last time western aircraft were confronted vs a ennemy not too bad on equipement was in Yom Kippour war and in a less extend, clash between Syrian and israelis in 1982. Since any air war were jokes for western camp and prove nothing."
 
I agree that the lopsided contests between US/Israeli aircraft and Arab/Serbian opponents in the 80's, 90's and 00's didn't prove much about the types involved for the reasons you have related. However, you can look at wars in the 80's not involving the US or Israelis for a better idea. The Iran/Iraq war strongly validated the F-14 and to a lesser extent the Mirage F-1, the South African's and Venezuelan's proved that their F-1's were a good type and the Pakistani's proved the F-16 against late model, Soviet flown Mig-23's.
 
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Shaken    Chinese R.550   2/18/2007 5:58:50 AM

Now I don't think you are being maliciously misleading DT, but I find your curious omission in your underlining puzzling. French missiles in Pakistani service have wound up in PRC labs-Exocet and Matra R-550 specifically;

You realize that the R.550 was a horrible missile when the PL-7 was released to service in 1987. It is a very short ranged, tail-chase missle and only slightly better than the original AIM-9B in overall capability. Also, the R.550 was widely exported in advance of the PRC / Pakistani alliances. It does not seem like any reasonably financed intelligence service would have had difficulty acquiring scores of this weapon.

I suspect people often think the R.550 is similar in capability than the Magic 2. In spite of their similar appearance, the Magic 2 is a considerably better weapon than the R.550 (or PL-7) with better range and all-aspect performance.

-- Shaken - out --

 
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Phaid       2/18/2007 9:21:55 AM



Three Rafale of the armee de l'air will be stationed at the Dushanbe air base in Tajikistan in mid-March. At the same time, two Rafales of the Marine Nationale will join the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, which is deployed off the coast of Pakistan. These five aircraft will operate over Afghanistan. 

I'm surprised there are only two Aeronavale Rafales committed. How many is the carrier routinely deploying with? Or is this merely a reflection of how many Rafale M's have been upgraded to the F2 standard?

Kudos to Dassault, the Aeronavale and Armee de l'Air on their success. Godspeed to the squadrons and our hopes go out for a safe return.

-- Shaken - out --

There are 12 Rafale on CdG now, but they are the F1 standard with no air to ground capability.  The two being deployed are F2 standard and can carry LGBs (even though they cannot designate for them).

 
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Bluewings12       2/18/2007 10:54:23 AM
It seems that a 3rd RafaleF2 will join the 2 already onboard CdG , bringing the total numbers of F2s over Afghanistan to 6 .
Official confirmation is expected soon .
They will be using LGBs and 250kg IronBombs . Targets will be designated by SEMs or M2000Ds .
Since May 2006 , 30 LGBs have been used on the Talibans . The last attack took place Tuesday 13th February .

Cheers .

 
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Herald1234       2/18/2007 5:31:19 PM



Now I don't think you are being maliciously misleading DT, but I find your curious omission in your underlining puzzling. French missiles in Pakistani service have wound up in PRC labs-Exocet and Matra R-550 specifically;

You realize that the R.550 was a horrible missile when the PL-7 was released to service in 1987. It is a very short ranged, tail-chase missle and only slightly better than the original AIM-9B in overall capability. Also, the R.550 was widely exported in advance of the PRC / Pakistani alliances. It does not seem like any reasonably financed intelligence service would have had difficulty acquiring scores of this weapon.

I suspect people often think the R.550 is similar in capability than the Magic 2. In spite of their similar appearance, the Magic 2 is a considerably better weapon than the R.550 (or PL-7) with better range and all-aspect performance.

-- Shaken - out --

Stand corrected on the R-550. Stand by the Exocet and the sonar, though.

Herald

 
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sentinel28a       2/19/2007 2:52:10 AM
The Israelis won over Bekaa Valley because they secured every advantage before going out to fight.  That's just sound tactics, and it would've worked had the Israelis still been flying Mirages and Kfirs. 
 
The Syrians were subpar pilots, but they were not--according to Russian sources--flying just the inferior MiG-23s with Jaybird radar.  They also had at the time top of the line Floggers as well.  Their tactics, while abysmal, were also straight out of the Russian playbook.  When the news got back to Moscow, there was a lot of thinking done.  A Russian fighter pilot (a Colonel, whose name escapes me) wrote a long treatise that, for once, threw party loyalty out the window and just told the plain truth: Soviet tactics stunk.  This was a Red Star article, and he very plainly said that, had this been Central Europe, the Red Army would be getting decimated by NATO airpower, because Frontal Aviation would've ceased to exist.  He noted that the Flogger itself was a good aircraft that was surprisingly decent in a dogfight (a comparison the Israelis themselves made after capturing a Flogger of their own), but that the tactics were so poor and the Israelis so good that the outcome was a foregone conclusion.
 
Surprisingly, this Colonel was not demoted nor shot, and the V-VS picked up on his treatise.  A lot of what he wrote went into the refinements of the MiG-29 and Su-27, and had the Soviet Union lasted longer, probably would've seen massive changes in Soviet air combat training.
 
As far as the Rafale goes--it'll do fine.  The most important part of this is putting the aircraft in harm's way (it will get shot at, even if only by small arms) and putting the maintenance crews in a hostile environment--hot high conditions they wouldn't get in Djibouti.
 
 
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Yimmy       2/19/2007 3:00:52 AM
I have only skim read this thread, so sorry if I am asking for a repeat.
 
Firstly, I think it is great that the Rafale is going out there, and it will be even better if they are there at the same time as the RAF Typhoons which are planned to go out (I am not sure when exactly).
 
What can we expect these French aircraft to be armed with?
 
I gather they will be using their cannon to good effect, can they/do they also use unguided rockets?  Can they self target laser guided munitions?  Are they equiped with GPS guided munitions?
 
And will the aircraft going be single seat, or more appropriate for CAS, 2 seat varients?
 
 
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KlubMarcus       2/19/2007 3:22:30 AM
I hope those Rafale's kill a lot of talibans. It would be such an embarassment if a french pilot attempted to surrender to ground troops. ;-) Ha Ha Ha... it's a joke folks.
 
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Phaid    Yimmy   2/19/2007 7:30:21 AM
The Rafales will be armed with LGBs but have no self-designation capability, so either a Super Etendard or a Mirage will have to designate for them.  The Rafales theoretically can carry the AASM GPS/inertial guided munition but there are none procured and they would be pretty expensive systems to drop on Talibans besides.
 
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