Rafale to see combat in March

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french stratege 2/16/2007 9:36:19 PM

AM9X is AM9L/M AND MDBA ASRAAM compatible.

Moreover AM9X and ASRAAM answered the same NATO requirement

Source:

ht*p://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-9x.htm

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french stratege 2/16/2007 9:39:07 PM

It is possible you stole a mica as it is possible we stole a AMRAAM.However why a US spy SSN with ESM measurement equipement was found in Taiwan missile range when they tested some mica?

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Herald1234 2/16/2007 9:59:56 PM

AM9X is AM9L/M AND MDBA ASRAAM compatible.

Moreover AM9X and ASRAAM answered the same NATO requirement

Source:

ht*p://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-9x.htm

Your citation is in error. The sourcecode and the interface has everything to do with the radar/IRST helmet mounted sight cuing matchup. Just because the missile sits on the rail and has the correct firing circuit link does not mean that the aircraft that mounts it can use it in a cued fashion. Incidentally your GS article mentions not one allied aircraft that has the US slave to cue interface software, though if you didn't read carefully you might be left with the impression that allied aircraft would possess the "growler" acquisition noise circuit made so famous by SIDEWINDER. At most you get a poor man's analog point at and release blind AIM 9L capability on the Rafale. This is not a missile user interface. it is a dumbfire mode in which you pray that the SIDEWINDER onboard seeker sees the target aqnd steers the missile 100% from dumbfire launch to the target splash. Any aircraft with a primitive "growler" circuit and the rail architecture might be able to do that, but as to actually cue the missile for something like an off centerline shot? Rafale and AIM 9X? Forget it. YOU HAVE TO MATCH THE RADAR TO THE MISSILE VIA THE SOFTWARE CODE AND SIGNAL INPUTS BETWEEN THE AIRCRAFT RADAR AND THE MISSILE. THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE BETWEEN THE RBE2 AND THE AIM 9X.

Herald

Herald

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doggtag 2/16/2007 11:23:25 PM

If people here will lend credibility to these sites' claims,

(Airforce-Technology.Com): link

WEAPONS

The Rafale can carry payloads of over 9t on 14 hardpoints for the Air Force version, and 13 for the naval version. The range of weapons includes: Mica, Magic, Sidewinder, ASRAAM and AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; Apache, AS30L, ALARM, HARM, Maverick and PGM100 air-to-ground missiles; and Exocet/AM39, Penguin 3 and Harpoon anti-ship missiles.

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(Nice to see that, contrary to any Rafale opponents, there does appear to be capability for both US- and UK- sourced weapons (not solely French ordnance). And naturally, since there is a carrier variant, it does come with anti-ship missile integration, contrary to something I read elsewhere recently...)

____________________________________________________________

The claims in red are if the US supplies the sourcecode and the weapon matching interfaces. This the Rafale does not currently have, not even for SIDEWINDER.

Herald

OK, Herald, care to enlighten the rest of us where you came by such information (source/citation, please!),

or is this going to be more of that "classified stuff I can't talk about" nonsense?

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Check with your military, then, FS. It isn't so. The AIM 9X is not AIM 9L compatible, nor to my knowledge has a RBE2 radar matchup in cuing for the AIM 9X been done. I also wasn't kidding when I said the US probably stole the MICA source code, if not an outright MICA itself. We are allies, FS, but look at how much Israeli electronics wound up in Iranian hardware. France tries to be careful about it-more so than the US; but even your country's fine electronics systems are showing up in enemy[Pakistani and PRC] aircraft. Our USAF foreign technology office would be damned fools, if they overlooked every possible system that could be sent against us by those Beijing thieves.

Herald

Check your info again, Herald. The US itself already has agreed to give/sell AMRAAMs to the Pakis. Rest assured a few may well and all end up somewhere in a lab in the depths of the middle kingdom, most likely with those few F-16s the chinese "mysteriously" acquired.

(from Defense-Aerospace.Com): link

Pakistan Chooses Raytheon's Proven Air Defense Missiles to Secure Borders

(Source: Raytheon Co.; issued Jan. 15, 2007)

TUCSON, Ariz. --- The country of Pakistan has signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the procurement of 500 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) - generating the largest single international AMRAAM purchase -- and 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles.

This is also the first AMRAAM missile procurement between Raytheon Company and Pakistan. Delivery of the AMRAAM missiles will start in 2008 and continue through 2011.

The combined $284 million procurement augments Pakistan's established inventory and will provide the bulk of the air-to-air fire power of the Pakistan Air Force. AMRAAM is a joint U.S. Air Force and Navy program and sets the global beyond-visual-range standard. It incorporates the latest digital technology and microminiaturized solid-state electronics, making this remarkable weapon more reliable and maintainable, resulting in the highest dependability at the lowest cost of ownership.

Thirty-two countries have procured AMRAAM based on its unprecedented air combat flexibility. The AIM-9M Sidewinder missile is a combat-proven, all- aspect, infrared-guided, short-range air-to-air missile employed by more than 20 countries worldwide.

"This is the largest single purchase of AMRAAM missiles in the history of the AMRAAM international program," said Brock McCaman, vice president of Raytheon Missile Systems' Air-to-Air product line. "The combat-proven 'one-two punch' of Raytheon's AMRAAM/Sidewinder technology will give the Pakistan Air Force the necessary firepower to accomplish vital air defense missions."

Raytheon Company, with 2005 sales of $21.9 billion, is an industry leader in defense and government electronics, space, information technology, technical services, and business and special mission aircraft. With headquarters in Waltham, Mass., Raytheon employs 80,000 people worldwide.

-ends-
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the same article is here at Raytheon: link

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Anyone else find any dependable info that Rafale can't use US (or anything non-French) weapons yet?

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Bluewings12 2/16/2007 11:26:31 PM

Let 's get the "willy" size out of this , for once ;)

I am glad that Rafale is getting some a2g opportunities :)
I am sure it will do a good job , it 's a very good Aircraft .
It is going to kill many Talibans and it is well worth it . Sure , the Dassault Aircraft is only testing the F2 software in real Ops but other Euros Fighters are not there yet ~Gripen , Typhoon~ .
Whatever the bonus , perhaps sales , the fact is France is helping on the WOT with Rafale , and it ' s good !

Cheers .

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displacedjim 2/16/2007 11:54:19 PM

It is possible you stole a mica as it is possible we stole a AMRAAM.However why a US spy SSN with ESM measurement equipement was found in Taiwan missile range when they tested some mica?

Heh heh heh... because we can.

More seriously, that's the way the business works. If we had such equipment on such platforms conducting such collection, I'd guess it's a safe bet that we'd gladly roll on even just an SA-2 if there's nothing else available of a higher priority at that time. You never know when you might discover some new operation mode or variant or whatever. Or so I've read.

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scuttlebut steve some bombtruckin work 2/17/2007 12:12:05 AM

what have these things got? 12 hardpoints and 20,000+ lb combat load. cant wait to see a video pic of these things doin' some bombtrucking work on some dug in taliban insurgents!

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smitty237 2/17/2007 12:13:11 AM

I agree. True, the combat experience the Rafale will get in Afghanistan is not a true test of its abilities since it will not be facing enemy aircraft, but how many of us chose our first fight? This opportunity will allow the French to evaluate the performance of the Rafale under combat conditions, and they will learn volumes from it..........certainly much more than they would through a training mission in the skies of France. Even more important is what the French pilots will take away from the experience and pass on to their brother pilots.

I have been a big critic of the role that France has played in the WOT, but I think I speak for many Americans when I say that I only wish the French pilots Godspeed and hope that they all safely return to France when their tours are over.

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Herald1234 Doggtag 2/17/2007 12:14:48 AM

What the hell has AMRAAM sales to the Paks got to do with Sidewinder?

And I do expect to see AMRAAM C clones hanging off the rails of PRC aircraft-directly because of their Pak stooges.

Check with your military, then, FS. It isn't so. The AIM 9X is not AIM 9L compatible, nor to my knowledge has a RBE2 radar matchup in cuing for the AIM 9X been done. I also wasn't kidding when I said the US probably stole the MICA source code, if not an outright MICA itself. We are allies, FS, but look at how much Israeli electronics wound up in Iranian hardware. France tries to be careful about it-more so than the US; but even your country's fine electronics systems are showing up in enemy[Pakistani and PRC] aircraft. Our USAF foreign technology office would be damned fools, if they overlooked every possible system that could be sent against us by those Beijing thieves.

Now I don't think you are being maliciously misleading DT, but I find your curious omission in your underlining puzzling. French missiles in Pakistani service have wound up in PRC labs-Exocet and Matra R-550 specifically;

h#tp://www.geocities.com/Baja/Dunes/1107/HTML/paf/arm.htm

Once the French discovered the PRCs stealing their stuff through the Paks, they've done a hell of a lot better job securing their technology than we have of ours.[especially after the theft of their sonar technology. That really ticked the French off.]

And by the way, if you'd been paying a little closer attention, you've would have read where I pointed out elsewhere that Rafale handles many British systems[see above for the British missiles not bolded in red as some of the American ones and can dumbfire or drop US ordnance that fits the Heinemen pattern.

The blanket statements you attribute to me, I attribute your error to be as a result of your hasty reading.

Herald

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doggtag Herald 2/17/2007 1:40:10 AM

My "hasty" reply was to your suggestion that, thru whatever means, only the French had problems with their technology "mysteriously" leaking its way into the PRC (forgot about that EP-3 incident and the whole Grumman involvement in the chinese "Super 7" program, did we?).

If the US secret-protectors are so concerned about US tech been smuggled behind the Great Wall, why was this sale even allowed? Solely because we need all those paper allies in this War on Terror?

Or perhaps it's all part of some as-yet-unannounced precursor to claims that, "oh no! our AMRAAM tech was compromised! we need billions to develop a brand new missile family!" ?

(which, judging by past occurences, wouldn't surprise me at all).

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Herald1234 2/17/2007 2:02:00 AM

If the US secret-protectors are so concerned about US tech been smuggled behind the Great Wall, why was this sale even allowed? Solely because we need all those paper allies in this War on Terror?

Or perhaps it's all part of some as-yet-unannounced precursor to claims that, "oh no! our AMRAAM tech was compromised! we need billions to develop a brand new missile family!" ?

(which, judging by past occurences, wouldn't surprise me at all).

Ask Bill Clinton why our LORAL missile guidance technology is in KT-1ans and DF-31s. Grumman's initial involvement in the JF-17 I know about, McGee. I've already reamed Mith about it. Do you want to step up to the plate and take your lumps too?

Herald

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french stratege 2/17/2007 9:14:59 AM

Rafale WVR missile cueing software is perfectly able to designate target to AM9X autodirector (as AM9L/M) as the link I provided show it.You recognize now that interface is there.This interface has only to transmit angle parameters to point it in the target direction and give firing sequence orders.

Central calculator of rafale (it is not in RBE2 which is only a captor) has only to get specific AM9X flight parameters as it has already cueing/firingsequence software for mica, Magic 2, ASRAAM and AM9L/M.

And even we would not put AM9X flight envelop specific parameters , it would use those of AM9L/M which have only a more restricted envelop.So the AM9X use would not be fully optimized especially for max range, but in fact it would be use as a AM9L/M with only a better kill probability at the end vs AM9L/M.

You did not also comment the fact that ASRAAM interface is the same.

Now AMRAAM software module to embed in rafale central calculator, is far more complex and it is not possible for us to integrate one without US agrement to provide it.

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Phaid doggtag 2/17/2007 10:44:04 AM

This is kind of tiresome, but...

(Nice to see that, contrary to any Rafale opponents, there does appear to be capability for both US- and UK- sourced weapons (not solely French ordnance). And naturally, since there is a carrier variant, it does come with anti-ship missile integration, contrary to something I read elsewhere recently...)

The capabilities you listed in your post are what the Rafale would have in the F3 standard, assuming all of the F3 standard features are fully funded. Even the silly airforce-technology article states that.

At present, the Rafales being procured and in operation are the F2 standard, except for the first 12 Marine rafales which are to the F1 standard. The F2 standard has no laser self-designation capability, no anti ship missile (harpoon, exocet, AS-30 or otherwise), no air to ship radar modes, etc as I stated previously. The 12 F1-standard Rafale-Ms on CdG have no OSF and no air to surface capability whatsoever -- this is why the two F2-standard Rafale Ms are being sent to CdG to participate in the Afghanistan missions. And you'll notice that those will still require laser designation be provided by other aircraft, just as the AdA Rafales will.

I don't know why this thread had to turn into a pissing contest. Arguing facts is stupid and pointless. At least have the courtesy to go back and read the previous posts on the subject, which include plenty of links to actual authoritative sources to substantiate their assertions, before launching yet another silly flame war.

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french stratege 2/17/2007 11:14:28 AM

The F3 standard is scheduled for 2008.

But in fact most of its capabilities are software capabilties and have been already developped to 95% of specification if not commissioned by ADA or Navy (due to paiement of end contract in 2008).Exocet is already qualified in fact.Like HMS or Damocles pod.

It was necessary in case of exporting the plane.

Only to upload the software in existing french F2 planes.Time? few hours.

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Shaken The MiG-23 and the Bekka Valley comparison 2/18/2007 5:29:28 AM

On Bekka valley in 82, I said that it was less a valuable exemple and experience return than 73 as Israelis had an overwhelming superiority not only for Eagle as they had E2C.
And BTW F15 shoot mainly old Mig21 and 23.
Moreover at this time Russian were not supplying their latest equipement to Syrian but subpar (especially on electronic), and of course Syrian pilots were inferior in training.
Since, small wars are more realistic manoeuvers than real wars.

It is unfair to refer to the MiG-23 as old when compared to the F-15. These are peer aircraft and enter general service within three years of one another (1973 for the Flogger, 1976 for the Eagle). The Flogger, Mirage F1, Eagle, Tomcat and Viggen all hit operational readiness in close succession. The Eagle and Tomcat are really head and shoulders over these other peer-era aircraft.

Of course, your overall analysis is quite sound. The Israelis had significant technology and training advantages over the Syrians that led to a very one-sided affair.

As someone touches on elsewhere in the thread, the 1973 war may be the last time two relatively skillful forces meet in the air (1973 Egypt really got their act together, versus their woeful earlier efforts). We see peer level air-to-air combat subsequently in the Iran-Iraq War and the Ethiopia vs Eritrea, though none of these forces demonstrate any particular sophistication.

-- Shaken - out --

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