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Subject: Rafale to see combat in March
Phaid    2/16/2007 11:36:29 AM
Here is my tranlation of yesterday's article in Liberation concerning the Rafale's first combat deployment to Afghanistan. Link to follow. "Baptism of fire for the Rafales. The military is preparing to send five of these combat aircraft to Afghanistan, where they will provide close air support for NATO forces fighting against the Taliban. This will be the first real operational depployment of this new combat aircraft, which recently entered service. Three Rafale of the armee de l'air will be stationed at the Dushanbe air base in Tajikistan in mid-March. At the same time, two Rafales of the Marine Nationale will join the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, which is deployed off the coast of Pakistan. These five aircraft will operate over Afghanistan. The Armee de l'Air and the Marine Nationale are currently in the final stages of trials to permit the Rafale to drop laser-guided weapons. Indeed, in its initial version, and for budgetary reasons, the aircraft lacked this capability, which is nonetheless indispensable in all modern conflicts. Each Rafale can carry a payload of up to six 250kg (500 lb) bombs, but the target on the ground must be illuminated by another aircraft, either a Mirage 2000 or a Super Etendard. These air strike operations are in no way hypothetical. Since 2002, French aircraft have regularly participated in offensive missions in Afthanistan. With the declining situationon the ground, the Armee de l'Air has thus dropped 25 bombs since May of 2006. The last such attack took place Tuesday, with a Mirage 2000D dropping bombs at the request of Canadian special forces. For several months, a rivalry has existed between the Marine Nationale and the Armee de l'Air, each hoping to be the first to use the Rafale in combat. In the end, they will do it jointly. At Dassault, this deployment is being celebrated, as in the eyes of the manufacturer it should allow them to convince potential clients to buy the fighter-bomber. After several defeats (Netherlands, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Singapore), Dassault is hoping for sales in Switzerland, Greece, India, Morocco, and Libya."
 
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french stratege       2/16/2007 7:48:57 PM
TitleThe claims in red are if the US supplies the sourcecode and the weapon matching interfaces. This the Rafale does not currently have, not even for SIDEWINDER
.
False, we have the source code for sidewinder interface.BTW it is a almost NATO standard.And compatible with ASRAAM.
But not for AMRAAM it seems.
Does F16 have source code of Mica?

On Bekka valley in 82, I said that it was less a valuable exemple and experience return than 73 as Israelis had an overwhelming superiority not only for Eagle as they had E2C.
And BTW F15 shoot mainly old Mig21 and 23.
Moreover at this time Russian were not supplying their latest equipement to Syrian but subpar (especially on electronic), and of course Syrian pilots were inferior in training.
Since, small wars are more realistic manoeuvers than real wars.

PS: if you reread my post on Afganistan you would notice I spoke about AtoG procedures.
 
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french stratege       2/16/2007 7:58:42 PM
rafale accept Sidewinder, Magic, ASRAAM, mica, french and standard NATO bombs and LBG, Apache, SCALP, Exocet (considered as qualified and software developped), AASM(considered as qualified and software developped), ALARM, and Meteor in few years.
Damocles pod can ne considered as qualified by constructor if not in a formalized acceptance par ADA.
 
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Herald1234       2/16/2007 8:06:12 PM


TitleThe claims in red are if the US supplies the sourcecode and the weapon matching interfaces. This the Rafale does not currently have, not even for SIDEWINDER
.
False, we have the source code for sidewinder interface.BTW it is a almost NATO standard.And compatible with ASRAAM.
But not for AMRAAM it seems.
Does F16 have source code of Mica?

[Slight correction. Rafale has the sourcecode for AIM 9L which is the NATO standard. Later SIDEWINDERS? No.]

Did the US steal the MICA sourcecode yet? Maybe. If we did, I wouldn't  know if the US would install it and reverse engineer the interface for MICA. We have equivalents that fit  our radars better. You can't talk about a missile without talking about the cueing radar or IRST, even if the missile is an IR missile like AIM  9X or IRIS-T.]

On Bekka valley in 82, I said that it was less a valuable exemple and experience return than 73 as Israelis had an overwhelming superiority not only for Eagle as they had E2C.
And BTW F15 shoot mainly old Mig21 and 23.
Moreover at this time Russian were not supplying their latest equipement to Syrian but subpar (especially on electronic), and of course Syrian pilots were inferior in training.
[Syrian incompetence and inferior gear is an issue, yet the IAF was still outnumbered and had to fight hard. NO LOSSES. That is unheard of in any air combat since the Brewster Buffalo  knocked down all those Polykarpovs over Finland!]


Since, small wars are more realistic manoeuvers than real wars.
[ A two hundred aircraft furball is a small exersise?]
PS: if you reread my post on Afganistan you would notice I spoke about AtoG procedures.
[And I said that the Rafale would do well because theAdA does practice A2G hard.]

Herald
 
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french stratege       2/16/2007 9:13:52 PM
When I said "do you have MICA source code" it was to say ironically that not having AMRAAM is not a inferiority in diversity of weapons.
Herald
I'm quite sure Rafale is compatible with any Sidewinder including AM9X since AM9X is backward compatible with any AM9L/M launcher using the analog signal including for seeker slave mode.
Moreover I 'm quite sure that AM9X MIL-STD-1760 numerical interface is the same than MDBA ASRAAM.So Rafale is likely already compatible with AM9X.
 
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Herald1234       2/16/2007 9:28:33 PM

When I said "do you have MICA source code" it was to say ironically that not having AMRAAM is not a inferiority in diversity of weapons.

Herald

I'm quite sure Rafale is compatible with any Sidewinder including AM9X since AM9X is backward compatible with any AM9L/M launcher using the analog signal including for seeker slave mode.

Moreover I 'm quite sure that AM9X MIL-STD-1760 numerical interface is the same than MDBA ASRAAM.So Rafale is likely already compatible with AM9X.

Check with your military, then, FS. It isn't so. The AIM 9X is not AIM 9L compatible, nor to my knowledge has a RBE2 radar matchup in cuing for the AIM 9X been done.  I also wasn't kidding when I said the US probably stole the MICA source code, if not an outright MICA itself. We are allies, FS, but look at how much Israeli electronics wound up in Iranian hardware. France tries to be careful about it-more so than the US; but even your country's fine electronics systems are showing up in enemy[Pakistani and PRC] aircraft. Our USAF foreign technology office would be damned fools, if they overlooked every possible system that could be sent against us by those Beijing thieves.      

Herald
 
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french stratege       2/16/2007 9:36:19 PM
AM9X is AM9L/M AND MDBA ASRAAM compatible.
Moreover AM9X and ASRAAM answered the same NATO requirement
Source:
ht*p://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-9x.htm
 
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french stratege       2/16/2007 9:39:07 PM
It is possible you stole a mica as it is possible we stole a AMRAAM.However why a US spy SSN with ESM measurement equipement was found in Taiwan missile range when they tested some mica?
 
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Herald1234       2/16/2007 9:59:56 PM

AM9X is AM9L/M AND MDBA ASRAAM compatible.

Moreover AM9X and ASRAAM answered the same NATO requirement

Source:

ht*p://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-9x.htm

Your citation is in error. The sourcecode and the interface has everything to do with the radar/IRST helmet mounted sight cuing matchup. Just because the missile sits on the rail and has the correct firing circuit link does not mean that the aircraft that mounts it can use it in a cued fashion. Incidentally your GS article mentions not one allied aircraft that has the US slave to cue interface software, though if you didn't read carefully you might be left with the impression that allied aircraft would possess the "growler" acquisition noise circuit made so famous by SIDEWINDER. At most you get a poor man's analog point at and release blind AIM 9L capability on the Rafale. This is not  a  missile user interface. it is a  dumbfire mode in which you pray that the SIDEWINDER  onboard seeker sees the target aqnd steers the missile 100% from dumbfire launch to the target splash. Any aircraft with a primitive "growler" circuit and the rail architecture might be able to do that, but as to actually cue the missile for something like an off centerline shot? Rafale and AIM 9X? Forget it. YOU HAVE TO MATCH THE RADAR TO THE MISSILE VIA THE SOFTWARE CODE AND SIGNAL INPUTS BETWEEN THE AIRCRAFT RADAR AND THE MISSILE. THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE BETWEEN THE RBE2 AND THE  AIM 9X.

Herald

Herald
 
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doggtag       2/16/2007 11:23:25 PM




If people here will lend credibility to these sites' claims,



 



(Airforce-Technology.Com): link...


WEAPONS



The Rafale can carry payloads of over 9t on 14 hardpoints for the Air Force version, and 13 for the naval version. The range of weapons includes: Mica, Magic, Sidewinder, ASRAAM and AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; Apache, AS30L, ALARM, HARM, Maverick and PGM100 air-to-ground missiles; and Exocet/AM39, Penguin 3 and Harpoon anti-ship missiles.

-----



(Nice to see that, contrary to any Rafale opponents, there does appear to be capability for both US- and UK- sourced weapons (not solely French ordnance). And naturally, since there is a carrier variant, it does come with anti-ship missile integration, contrary to something I read elsewhere recently...)



 

____________________________________________________________

The claims in red are if the US supplies the sourcecode and the weapon matching interfaces. This the Rafale does not currently have, not even for SIDEWINDER.

Herald

 



OK, Herald, care to enlighten the rest of us where you came by such information (source/citation, please!),
or is this going to be more of that "classified stuff I can't talk about" nonsense?
 
-----------------
Check with your military, then, FS. It isn't so. The AIM 9X is not AIM 9L compatible, nor to my knowledge has a RBE2 radar matchup in cuing for the AIM 9X been done.  I also wasn't kidding when I said the US probably stole the MICA source code, if not an outright MICA itself. We are allies, FS, but look at how much Israeli electronics wound up in Iranian hardware. France tries to be careful about it-more so than the US; but even your country's fine electronics systems are showing up in enemy[Pakistani and PRC] aircraft. Our USAF foreign technology office would be damned fools, if they overlooked every possible system that could be sent against us by those Beijing thieves.

Herald
 
Check your info again, Herald. The US itself already has agreed to give/sell AMRAAMs to the Pakis. Rest assured a few may well and all end up somewhere in a lab in the depths of the middle kingdom, most likely with those few F-16s the chinese "mysteriously" acquired.
(from Defense-Aerospace.Com): http://www.defense-aerospace.c...
 
Pakistan Chooses Raytheon's Proven Air Defense Missiles to Secure Borders
 
(Source: Raytheon Co.; issued Jan. 15, 2007)
TUCSON, Ariz. --- The country of Pakistan has signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the procurement of 500 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) - generating the largest single international AMRAAM purchase -- and 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles.  
 
This is also the first AMRAAM missile procurement between Raytheon Company and Pakistan. Delivery of the AMRAAM missiles will start in 2008 and continue through 2011.  
 
The combined $284 million procurement augments Pakistan's established inventory and wil
 
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Bluewings12       2/16/2007 11:26:31 PM
Let 's get the "willy" size out of this , for once ;)

I am glad that Rafale is getting some a2g opportunities :)
I am sure it will do a good job , it 's a very good Aircraft .
It is going to kill many Talibans and it is well worth it . Sure , the Dassault Aircraft is only testing the F2 software in real Ops but other Euros Fighters are not there yet ~Gripen , Typhoon~ .
Whatever the bonus , perhaps sales , the fact is France is helping on the WOT with Rafale , and it ' s good !

Cheers .
 
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