The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - September 5, 2008

Advertisement


Advertisement



New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Squad Battles: Winter War
2.Silent War
3.Manoeuvre
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 

Online Giving

Utah SEO Firm

Xango

Smiley Gifts for Babies

Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: F-14 vs. F-15
boris the romanian    9/29/2006 1:21:01 AM
Something that's always bugged me, I often wonder why the USAF didn't field the F-14A in the 1970s but went with the F-15A.

I reckon in the 1970s era of SARH MRMs, the Tomcat would have absolutely mopped the floor with the F-15 a la its performance in Iran vs. Iraq against Floggers and Mirages.

It's ability to engage multiple targets at ranges of 100km+ was far in excess of the F-15's capabilities, and the Tomcat was no picnic in a dogfight either.

I understand the Pheonix would have performed with reduced accuracy against manoeuvering targets, but when a target is manoeuvering he is defensive, bleeding off his energy, ever more vulnerable to a follow-up shot, and much less likely to get in a shot of his own.

The only area where I see the Eagle having any sort of meaningful combat superiority over the Tomcat is mud moving, but the 1970s motto was "not a pound for air to ground".

Why didn't the USAF field the Tomcat? Seems like a mistake to me...
 
Quote    Reply
 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: 1 2 3 4   NEXT
DropBear       9/30/2006 1:27:44 AM

Politics and inter-service rivalry.
 
 
Quote    Reply

sentinel28a       9/30/2006 8:03:47 AM
Cost was one reason.  The F-14 was once the most expensive fighter in existence, and a single Phoenix cost a million a pop.  The USAF did evaluate the F-14 as an interceptor replacement for the F-106, which it would've excelled at.  Daniel "Chappie" James lobbied for the Tomcat.  However, this was during the Carter administration (cut the military to the bone, then work on the marrow), and the F-14 was simply too much to get, so the 'Six labored on for another 15 years--and did it well, mind.
 
The other reason, I think, was because the Tomcat was made by the Navy for the Navy.  The USAF didn't want any part of it.  Remember that the last multiservice fighter project had been the F-111, which had been a dismal failure for the Navy and nearly so for the USAF.  The USAF wasn't going to get burned again.  Aside from the Phoenix, there really wasn't much more the Tomcat could do that the F-15 couldn't, and if the USAF started buying F-14s, Congress might ask uncomfortable questions like "Why do you need the F-15, then?"
 
My question is, why not adapt the F-15 to carry the Phoenix?
 
 
Quote    Reply

Rasputin       10/2/2006 6:37:37 AM
Can the F14s get to the height of 85000ft to launch ???? anti satalight weapons?
 
Quote    Reply

Rasputin       10/2/2006 6:43:01 AM
An additionial question about the F14, as it was 2 seat fighter from the beginning, and head swing wings, would it not
have been more ideal for any operator to modify this platform to become a "mud mover" rather than redesign a single seat fighter?

The F15s are blessed with more capability upgrades is what i have noticed.

 
Quote    Reply

boris the romanian       10/2/2006 9:18:27 PM
I can't really see the F-15 doing stuff that the F-14 couldn't, so indeed, one may ask the question "Why not ditch the Eagle and go the Tomcat?". I think that would have been a much smarter move, IMO.
 
Quote    Reply

Francois       10/2/2006 10:11:23 PM
The key word is maintainability.
F-14 is not really a very good design in this regard.
Why nobody designs sweep-wings anymore, uh?
 
Quote    Reply

boris the romanian       10/2/2006 10:24:35 PM
Whilst I'll agree that the F-15 was more manoeuverable than the Tomcat, the F-14 was surprisingly agile. It also had a second pair of eyes, which are quite handy in a dogfight.
 
WVR combat would be secondary to BVR, though, and in BVR the Tomcat was far superior to the Eagle.
 
Quote    Reply

boris the romanian       10/2/2006 10:25:25 PM
Sorry, I misread "maintainability" as "manoeuverability". My bad!
 
Quote    Reply

Rasputin       10/3/2006 12:23:01 AM
So the swing wing is the archillies heel of the F14?

In war where your enemies are confirmed or for naval use where u need to hit targets before they get to anti ship missile range. The F14 with its BVR and phoneix capabilities would be highly appreciated.

But during peacetime, or in wars where you have absolute air superiority, someone still has to go up to identify the UFO before you can declare it hostile for the shootdown. In this regard, the F15 with its greater manuverability is more suited, and as the F15 also has long range, it can also be an interceptor. So it would seem that this configuration is much more suited to most airforces.

However, swing wing fighters would also make great close support bombers, and just as the F15 could be modified, the F14 would have been quite capable. But the navy chose to go with an F18 that could not carry as much as the A6, and needed to be refueled after it took off. Cost of development of the F18 could have just made a F14 bombcat instead.

 
Quote    Reply

MadRat       10/3/2006 1:20:02 AM
The F-14E wouldn't of had near the flutter at high speeds on the deck, but otherwise didn't seem to handle near the bombs.  Perhaps if they were looking to replace the retired F-111 missions then F-14E made sense.
 
Quote    Reply

Francois       10/3/2006 1:52:33 AM
The first limitator in any conflict is the ROE.
Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia are examples.
Liberate the ROE, and you get the best of men and platforms.
 
Now, flight-hour cost of the Tomcat, and work hours are (were) tremendous.
I think the SH is what, one tenth of that? And the Eagle might be 20%?
 
Don't think the Bomcat was such a good platform, IMHO.
 
Quote    Reply

boris the romanian       10/3/2006 2:33:03 AM
Operating costs or not, I don't think the USAF decision to completely overlook the F-14 was at all a smart move. If the Cold War had gone hot, the F-14 would have been a much better fighter than the F-15, especially in crowded skies. The Tomcat, unlike the Eagle, could take on many times its own number of Soviet fighters and still come out on top.
 
 
Quote    Reply

Rasputin       10/3/2006 3:50:59 AM
Well its like the F4 Phantom and A4 skyhawk thing, if the aircraft has a high maintenance cost, chances are the lower cost one will keep on being utilized. Those 2 aircraft are amazing, they just came out and could become "JSF" planes, but for the present, there are so many "problems" with the real JSF.

If you look at the world wide carriers forces and carrier aircraft, harriers, properllor planes, super enternard, yak 38 forger, and with not much likely hood of facing soviet Tu 22 blindfires, perhaps the navy felt the F14 was overkill an inteceptor for decades, and the production line must have been scheduled to shut down. Since there were no multi role versions, the F14 just faded away. But in the present, there are threats like the Rafaels and Su 27 that can operate from carriers, but they could just be paper threats, because there are not that many carriers and planes yet.

The F15 is also an air superiority fighter, it was designed to take down the Mig 25 Foxbat, it would be good to compare if the F14 could take down the Mig 25? The F15 could also carry 4 sparrows and 4 sidewinders at its prime, it had the edge against the soviet fighters then that could only carry 4 or 2 missiles.

 
Quote    Reply

boris the romanian       10/3/2006 7:54:10 AM
That's not at all what I was referring to.
 
An F-15 may have been superior to any Soviet fighter it would have encountered over the battlefield, but it's SARH limitations would have ensured that it would have been shot down in significant numbers in any actual Central European conflict. Much of the fighting would have been at WVR due to ECM, terrain considerations, and the inability of targeting multiple hostiles at BVR.
 
All this would have been dramatically different with the Tomcat, which could destroy enemy fighters at much greater distances than the Eagle. Furthermore, it was more or less the only Western fighter that could engage multiple targets simultaneously at BVR before AMRAAM (with the Soviets having the MiG-31).
 
The Tomcat's WVR battle would have been against much fewer opponents, who would very probably be on the defensive anyway. I still think the Tomcat was a far superior fighter, and one that should have been adopted by the USAF.
 
Quote    Reply

AlbanyRifles       10/3/2006 8:40:26 AM
From the start they each were designed for different missions and with different traditions and doctrines.
 
The F-14 was designed for Fleet Defence against massed Soviet cruise missile attacks.  It was designed around the AIM-54 Phoenix missile.  Also from the start it was envisioend that there would be a Naval Flight Officer who would work radar and systems and the nose gunner would fly and fire the missiles.  It also had to be built like a tank to handle the stresses of operating from a carrier....trhere is a very good reason that the Navy's nickname for Grumman was The Bethpage Iron Works!
 
The F-15 was itnended as an air superiority fighter/interceptor.  While there was some need fror homeland defence it was intended to fly, fight and win over Western Europe as part of a NATO/Warsaw Pact fight.  It had to be effective in the interceptor role to protect the UK and and Western Europe as well as have the capacity to dogfight well to handle whatever came along.  It was also designed for quick and easy maintenance since it was expected to have a higher level of optempo than the F-14.  And it did nto need to be as robust as the F-14....though it is not a frail aircraft by any stretch.
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply
Pages: 1 2 3 4   NEXT

StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2008StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy