Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Rafale better than F22?
french stratege    1/16/2004 12:54:04 PM
Who is the best Rafale or F22 I compare on cost effectiveness: Explanation: According to "manchester law" , in probability , a force of 10 tank in openfield with a kill probability of 100 % against a 40 tanks opponent force with a kill probability of 25 % at the same range will lost (assuming same rate of fire and same quality crew) will loose. F22 cost more than two Rafale. F22 is equiped with AM9X and Amraam Rafale with Mica EW and IR. Mica IR/EW have same effective range than Amraam (true effective range 20/30 miles according to target load factor) while superior to AM9X in short range. Rafale is the last batch 3 version: 2*9 t M88-3 plus IRSF (long range infrared tracking multitarget device of 40 miles range) and helmet sighting. I assume that Rafale RCS is 6 time those of F22 F22 radar has range 30 % above Rafale ( both have electonic scan radar). F22 has same instantaneous turn than F22 at mach 0,7 to mach 1,5 and a lower one than F22 on sustained turn rate (10/15 %) ECM suit of Rafale is supposed to be at least as good than F22 (see my post Rafale ECM) In the combat there is two time more Rafale than F22 (according to cost).pilot are as skilled each side (don't even mention this troll idea that US pilots are more skilled, there is enough fact which shows that French pilot are as good in average) I think personnally that Rafales wing win the engagement especially in clear weather. I bet that in the same figure with the same number of aircraft each the kill ratio will be not more than 60 %for F22. Because amraam will have difficulties to lock on Rafale, as mica EW on F22 but Mica IR will have an hight probability of kill at 20 miles due to its vector trust and 50 g manoeuvrability. Especially if Rafale is equipped also with Meteor (Rafale is planned to receive Meteor in the next years)
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10   NEXT
Couac_Attack    RE:gf0012-aus : you exagerate - good example   1/29/2004 5:44:06 PM
" We can argue the technical disconnects till we are blue in the face here, the proof is in the pudding. There is no world conspiracy, the Rafale has not scored offshore buyers as it didn't make the cut. Period. Singapore is its last great hope " Again a bad comment that many have posted before. I explain why this has no value. 1rst: France dont really care about selling the Rafale, sure we would like to sell it, but his primary role has been to replace the major part of our planes ... I think he will succeed in it, so .. 2nd: The Rafale is still young, and we are not at the F2 version, i think that the Rafale that will perform in the Future is the F3 and that we will have to wait for it before entering fully in the competition. 3rd:: During S.Korean comp, American used pressure to force the Korean to buy the F-15 whereas the Rafale performed better, and we proposed the MKII version that was superior to the F-15 in many domains ( if not all ). Pilots/engineers prefered the rafale because they had estimated that it was the best choice there whereas politicians prefered the F-15 for other reason. We risk to see the same result at singapore, the F-15 is proposed at a to hight cost, and he is far to be cheap, considering he is becoming older everyday, and we propose many stuff/tech with the rafale( its the same case with the Eurofighter ), but Political pressure will maybe count more in the balance. I know that im going out of the thread, but i wanted to say that if the Rafale hasnt scored any trade until now, its certainly not because of his abilities.
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aus    gf0012-aus : you exagerate - Couac_Attack    1/29/2004 7:32:45 PM
You have had a number of variations already. you may not be on a second release, but you have certainly have had multiple iterrations in development. The French Govt has been pushing Rafale to all potential buyers in conjunction with the manufacturer. The fact that its part of a block replacement program is neither here nor there in this conversation. Re singapores NFR, you have no idea what the pricing offer has been, that is rather presumptuous. Let me spell it out quite clearly. The Rafale is a fine aircraft, an exceptional new generation leader. But it is not a competitor for an F22 and to continually try and compare the two platforms shows a lack of comprehension of multiple issues such as design , doctrine and where the US see it in future warfare. The continual farago of effusive statements extolling the virtue of the Rafale over the F22 gets a little tiresome. Especially when they lack comparitive substance.
 
Quote    Reply

Hellfire    RE:gf0012-aus : you exagerate - good example   1/29/2004 7:36:11 PM
The price if the rafale is about 55 million. The price of a full rate production F-22 should be under 90 million. So it is about 50% more expansive, not the double. The rafale F3 will be a very potent fighter, but all aircraft are made more capable, not just the rafale. Even the F-18E will have its new AESA radar by 2006 and new engines by 2008 with 25% more thrust. I think an AESA radar is also on the board for the typhoon. Even the F-16 block 60 could give a hard time to the rafale, at a fraction of the cost. It has an AESA radar - about 200km range - + CFT + internal flir.. I wouldn't be surprise if it could supercruise in an a/a configuration.
 
Quote    Reply

bsl    RE:Rafale better than F22?   1/29/2004 8:48:53 PM
"The F22 is prohibitively expensive." See, "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." See, also, "We have something you don't have! Nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah." "F22 is a non export aircraft." The British will be allowed to buy them if they want them, and Israel will probably wind up with some, too, eventually.
 
Quote    Reply

bsl    RE:gf0012-aus : you exagerate   1/29/2004 8:55:07 PM
"with netcentric warfare" There is a real future in this. OTOH, once you begin down this role, you create incentives to break the network. You risk making the force overly dependent on the network, too. And, there is a practical aspect to dependence which is especially tricky when it comes to air forces. Training is essential to all parts of a military. But, training can be expensive. No area tends to be more expensive than training on warplanes. In context of limited military budgets, there is a constant temptation to cut back on training to protect other areas of a budget. People rationalize that they can always make up for this in crises, while it can take far longer to build new systems. The result is going to be a strong tendency to skimp on contingency training. Work on the perfect case, when all the new systems are available and everything is working, perfectly. Skimp on what you do when the net crashes and it's back to old fashioned air combat.
 
Quote    Reply

bsl    F22 & Air to Ground Missions   1/29/2004 8:58:25 PM
As expensive as the F-22 is going to be, I don't think anyone plans to use it for CAS. For special, high value targets, perhaps. Not ordinary CAS.
 
Quote    Reply

jacques    RE:F22 & Air to Ground Missions   1/30/2004 3:24:56 AM
As expensive as the F-22 is going to be, I don't think anyone plans to use it for CAS. For special, high value targets, perhaps. Not ordinary CAS ....by bsl You see gentlemen the F22 can't be use for CAS but the Rafale will perform CAS mission just fine. Another feather to the hat for the Rafale in CAS role when comparing to the F22.
 
Quote    Reply

Heorot    RE:F22 & Air to Ground Missions   1/30/2004 5:17:28 AM
BSL didn't say it can't be used for CAS, he said it won't be. In a high risk environment like CAS why risk the F22 when you have the F35.
 
Quote    Reply

InFuSeR    RE:F22 & Air to Ground Missions   1/30/2004 7:18:41 AM
When history channel did a review of usa fighter aircraft it showed that the f22 would beable to drop 2 1000/2000 bombs 1 in each bay.
 
Quote    Reply

Hellfire    The F-16 block 60 is superior to the rafale   1/30/2004 8:03:08 AM
The rafale is very good, but is it better than 2 F-16 block 60? The block 60 includes: New Engine 32500 lbs of thrust. Two-Seat "Special Missions" Version The independent system operator station provides increased effectiveness in night/adverse weather, high-threat and special system missions. This version also facilitates operational training. Dorsal Compartment This compartment adds 30 cubic feet for more avionics with only small increases in weight and drag. On-Board Oxygen Generation System (OBOGS) This system eliminates liquid oxygen servicing requirements. Drag Chute The drag chute decreases stopping distances for short field operations, poor braking conditions, and emergencies. It also reduces brake wear. 600-Gallon Fuel Tanks Larger tanks increase range/persistence over the standard 370-gallon tanks without increasing flight limitations. These fuel tanks contain single-point selectable fill capability. Conformal Fuel Tanks Use of conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) extends the F-16?s effective mission range/loiter time up to 50 percent, depending on the mission profile. CFTs can be used for both air-to-ground and air-to-air missions. They can be easily removed. They also increase weapon payloads by freeing-up additional store stations. Data Link Link-16 or other data link systems receive off-board intelligence and control information and allow the aircraft to exchange information with other aircraft using a dedicated system. NVIS-Compatible Night pit and External Lighting This special lighting is compatible with night vision goggles. Helmet-Mounted Displays These systems provide high off-boresight cueing of weapons and sensors and improved pilot situational awareness with flight information and reverse cueing of tracked targets. Color Camera/Video Recorder This equipment provides color three-source video recording for two to six hours. Advanced IFF (APX-109+/113) This Identify Friend or Foe (IFF) equipment combines transponder and interrogator functions for electronic identification. HF Radio (ARC-190/200) Long-range communications are provided by this high-frequency radio. UHF/VHF Radio (ARC-210) All radio communications are provided in this single unit. Improved Data Modem This modem provides data-link communications using existing radios. Embedded GPS/INS By combining a global positioning system with a ring laser gyro inertial navigation system, pilots have more reliable, precision navigation. Targeting Pods (LANTIRN, Sharpshooter, ATLIS II, Litening II) These pods provide standoff target identification, attack and assessment, forward-looking infrared or electro-optical auto tracker and laser designation for laser-guided bombs. Navigation Pods (LANTIRN, Pathfinder, RUBIS, ATLANTIC, Litening II) These pods provide an open night window for accurate visual weapon delivery. LANTIRN also has fully automatic terrain-following radar. Antiradiation Targeting Pod The ASQ-213 HARM targeting system provides a robust lethal suppression of enemy air defense capability. Reconnaissance Pods A variety of reconnaissance pods are available. The latest have digital day/night sensors. Internalized Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) System Incorporating a FLIR/laser system in the nose of the F-16 improves weight, drag, and viewing angles versus pods. It also provides infrared search and track capabilities. A small pod on the inlet contains the targeting sensors, and the rest of the equipment is internally located. Electronic Warfare Systems The F-16 offers a wide selection of threat warning receivers (ALR-69, ALR-56M, Carapace SPS-3000 RWR), chaff/flare dispensers (ALE-40, ALE-47, Terma EWMS), electronic countermeasures equipment pods (ALQ-131 and ALQ-184), internal systems (ALQ-165 ASPJ, ALQ-178, EWS 16/Carapace, ASPIS), and towed decoy pylons (ALE-50). Increased Chaff/Flare Dispensers These dispensers increase protection. Options include internal or pylon-mounted. Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AIM-9, Magic II, ASRAAM) These missiles provide all-aspect dogfight capability. High Off-Boresight Infrared Air-to-Air Missiles (AIM-9X, Python IV, AIM-132 ASRAAM, IRIS-T) These new-generation, highly agile, short-range missiles allow high off-boresight launches using cueing sensors. Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AIM-7, Sky Flash, AIM-120) These missiles provide standoff, all-weather intercept capability. Antiship Missiles (AGM-119, AGM-84, AGM-65G) Antiship missiles provide standoff antiship capability in different environmental conditions. Precision Weapons (AGM-65 Maverick, Paveway Laser-Guided Bombs, GBU-15, SDB, JDAM, JSOW, JASSM, LOCAAS) These weapons provide high lethality with standoff distances. Wind-Corrected Munitions Dispenser Weapons (CBU-103, -104, -105) These weapons provide accurate, multip
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2012StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy