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Subject: Rafale better than F22?
french stratege    1/16/2004 12:54:04 PM
Who is the best Rafale or F22 I compare on cost effectiveness: Explanation: According to "manchester law" , in probability , a force of 10 tank in openfield with a kill probability of 100 % against a 40 tanks opponent force with a kill probability of 25 % at the same range will lost (assuming same rate of fire and same quality crew) will loose. F22 cost more than two Rafale. F22 is equiped with AM9X and Amraam Rafale with Mica EW and IR. Mica IR/EW have same effective range than Amraam (true effective range 20/30 miles according to target load factor) while superior to AM9X in short range. Rafale is the last batch 3 version: 2*9 t M88-3 plus IRSF (long range infrared tracking multitarget device of 40 miles range) and helmet sighting. I assume that Rafale RCS is 6 time those of F22 F22 radar has range 30 % above Rafale ( both have electonic scan radar). F22 has same instantaneous turn than F22 at mach 0,7 to mach 1,5 and a lower one than F22 on sustained turn rate (10/15 %) ECM suit of Rafale is supposed to be at least as good than F22 (see my post Rafale ECM) In the combat there is two time more Rafale than F22 (according to cost).pilot are as skilled each side (don't even mention this troll idea that US pilots are more skilled, there is enough fact which shows that French pilot are as good in average) I think personnally that Rafales wing win the engagement especially in clear weather. I bet that in the same figure with the same number of aircraft each the kill ratio will be not more than 60 %for F22. Because amraam will have difficulties to lock on Rafale, as mica EW on F22 but Mica IR will have an hight probability of kill at 20 miles due to its vector trust and 50 g manoeuvrability. Especially if Rafale is equipped also with Meteor (Rafale is planned to receive Meteor in the next years)
 
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B.Smitty    RE:Rafale better than F22?   1/16/2004 2:55:44 PM
1. I think it's difficult to compare aicraft based on unit price because so much of that depends on how many units are purchased. GAO estimates have shown that, if we purchaced 750 F-22s, the unit price would drop to around $80 million. (BTW, do you have any recent figures on unit price for Rafale? I haven't found anything new.) 1. I think you underestimate the difference in frontal RCS between the two. It's not 6 times. It's more like 10,000 times. (1m^2 vs .0001m^2) Of course, my info is based on speculation from another forum (acig.org), so YMMV. 3. I believe (though hard facts are hard to come by) APG-77 is going to give significantly greater detection ranges than RBE2. Quotes I've seen for RBE2 are around 100km (probably for a fighter-sized target). APG-77 is rumored to have a detection range of around 230km in LPI mode (again, for a fighter-sized target). 4. So taking 2 and 3 together, the F-22 could detect a Rafale at around 230km. The Rafale, OTOH, would only detect the F-22 at around 10km (assuming my math is still working). This means the Rafale may detect an F-22 with its IRST before its radar! If you can't see it, you can't hit it. 5. Neither AMRAAM or MICA need to lock on before launch. They both accept midcourse updates. Therefore, either can be fired blind and only go active during the terminal phase, when detection is nearly assured. 6. The F-22 will likely be at Mach 1.5+ for the entire engagement. The Rafale most likely will stay subsonic to conserve gas, and only jump to supersonic when it's ready to launch (if it has time). This difference in speed means the Raptor can take its shots and run away before entering the WVR zone. Plus, the improvement in AMRAAM/MICA range between Mach .85 and Mach 1.5 are supposedly upwards of 50%. So it's key to be supersonic before you launch a BVR missile.
 
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french stratege    RE:Rafale better than F22? About RCS   1/16/2004 3:11:22 PM
You completely overestimate the RCS difference (my personal data I get from french military show a ration between 5 and 20 not more: the Rafale have an RCS well under O,1 sqm and F22 well under 0,O1 sqm) Of course the advantage of F22 on radar (but if it uses, it helps the Rafale to track it or to transmit azimut to IRST to track it) is true but not on such a distance.IRST track at 40 miles multitarget.Also Rafale ECM is impressive. If you are at mach 1,5 your radius turn is much lower at the same charge factor. Rafale is supercruise at M 1,2+ with M88-3. When I spoke about lock of the Amraam or Mica EW it was on terminal phase only.Their antenna diameter and power transmitted are low so more esealy jammed and also difficult to detect low RCS plane.So advantage on Mica IR.
 
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french stratege    RE:Rafale better than F22?   1/16/2004 3:12:56 PM
Rafale price for 232: 50 million $ for air version (in fact 50 million Euros) , 55 for naval.
 
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Siddar    RE:Rafale better than F22?   1/16/2004 5:32:17 PM
I see f22 getting a barage of amraams on Rafales because of shared data links between f22s. One f22 will hang back about 100km behind main body of f22s and use its radar while other f22s use trailing f22 radar data for first barage of amraam. I also see Rafales RC increaseing dramaticly from putting missiles on it. You siad clear weather but if f22 can put clouds between them and Rafales that will shut down there IR detecters. In fact f22s could simply lauch there amraams then leave the area before Rafales could even get a shot off in return repeat that process for sevral engagements and let atrition run its course.
 
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bsl    RE:Rafale better than F22?   1/16/2004 5:38:48 PM
While there is something to this analysis, one can't quite shake the suspicion that it's been lifted from a MiG-21 sales brochure. Even with the Israeli upgrade kit, I'd rather fly an F-15. French military design has been good for several hundred years. It still is, at least when they have the funds to properly develop a design. However, if anyone really believes that they know the alpha and omega of the performance of F-22s, right down to the details of the electronics packages, then they're fooling themselves.
 
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french stratege    RE:Rafale better than F22?   1/16/2004 5:45:38 PM
F22 have to get close to at least 20/30 miles first, Second Rafale have datalink also between planes (like Grippen also) Third if the first F22 are at 40 km from rafale you mean that the F22 backward are at 140 km.A little to much for detection of a stealthy fighter in heavy jamming. The problem of the F22 is amraam!too short and only EW.
 
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french stratege    some info about France stealth   1/16/2004 5:52:57 PM
About F22 package we are well aware of available technologies in US and we do our estimate.France have beginning to work in stealth technologies in the sixties!Few people know that abroad: it was in the purpose to protect our nuclearwarheads from Russian antimissile defense before START 1. US doen't know either what are the real possibility of Rafale. I'm really selfconfident that it is a cost effective plane even vs F22. About stealth design innercariage thru missile bay add some about RCS reduction.But Rafale use conformal use (with 6 Mica) and stealth design on the missile it self.
 
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Siddar    RE:some info about France stealth   1/16/2004 6:11:21 PM
I think it comes down to you getting what you pay for US has spent huge amount of time and money on stealth. I doubt any other country has spent a tenth as much as US has on stealth. I also dont buy the claims of most plane makers that there aircraft are stealth they slaps some ram on it and tweak design to reduce rcs a little then take the lowest rcs angle they can find in testing and use that to claim stealth when in real world its complete bs. The stealth claim for f22 isnt bs its clear stealth was part of it design from start. I doubt in going to change your view on this topic though.
 
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DC    RE:Rafale better than F22?   1/16/2004 6:15:00 PM
I believe in a head to head (flying toward each other) the AMRAAM has a range of 39 miles. I think you really don't respect stealth enough. I think you base this on 1 F-117 being shot down by the Serbs. The F-117 was shot down because of poor tactics and some good intelligence by the Serbs. It's also mentioned that British ships could track B-1's coming in for raids in Iraq. Well no crap they flew right over the ships. Thats to late if that ship was the target. Really the Rafale will be lucky to survive a JSF. DC
 
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gf0012-aus    Some info about France stealth -    1/16/2004 6:18:54 PM
Tha Rafle is not a stealth design, Look at its design shape, look at issues such as the engine inlets and rear of the plane. Its is also not a clean design. Ie it has external points for mounting weapons. as soon as you add an external weapon, unless it is CONFORMAL and sympathetic to the design of the platform, you have just made the aircraft "dirty". ie you might as well hold up a sign and tell everyone that you are coming. All of the RCS limiting tricks in the "book" will not change the fact that the platform does not lend itself to being a stealthy asset. It may well have a lower RCS, but its fundamental design precludes a capacity to hide it from current generation detection systems, let alone a system designed to look for ambient disconnects that would indicate a stealth aircraft trawling around above your head. Rafale Mk 2 may well be stealth, but not by using the current platform as a basis for its design.
 
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