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Subject: Rafale AESA and Supercruise
Bluewings    3/30/2006 5:33:18 PM
Since few US posters don 't believe what FrenchStratege and myself are saying , it is time to clear ANY doubt on some important issues .

Rafale HAS an AESA radar and Rafale CAN supercruise .

#1: AESA :
"In April 2002, the DGA, the French defence procurement agency, appointed Thales to develop an active array radar demonstrator optimised for the Rafale omnirole fighter. Called DRAA (Démonstrateur Radar à Antenne Active, or Active Array Radar Demonstrator), the programme culminated in a series of demanding flight tests to validate its detection performance. Although the development schedule was
extremely tight, the DRAA met all programme milestones on time. This Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) demonstrator will pave the way to a production equipment for the Rafale.

With the adoption of an active antenna, RBE2 radar performance will be
even further increased : detection and tracking ranges will be significantly improved, angular coverage will be considerably expanded and reliability will be boosted to unprecedented levels.

Test-flying the DRAA

In December 2002, the first flight of the AESA system was carried out in a Mystere XX flying test bed belonging to the French MoD located in the Flight Test Centre at Cazaux (South-West of France). Subsequently, the DRAA demonstrator was fitted to two-seat production Rafale B301. ?For us, it was essential to prove to our customers that we could
easily fit a new array to the existing RBE2 hardware, stresses Jean-Marc Goujon, Rafale Radar Programme Manager. As such, one of the main goals of the DRAA programme was to demonstrate that the new array could easily be fitted to the B301?s current RBE2 electronic scanning radar without any modifications of the whole radar architecture. This modification was a total success, Thales and Dassault engineers being able to complete the task in less than three hours! This is a considerable achievement that proves impossible for our competitors who would have to completely redesign and rebuild their radar sets to
accommodate an AESA.? The first flight in Rafale B301
was recorded from Istres in May 2003. During the comprehensive flight test programme, the fully integrated Band X DRAA radar successfully transmitted, received and collected radar data, confirming all Thales prediction, a clear indication that the company totally masters AESA
technology "
****************************
#2: SUPERCRUISE :
(From 2 Pilots of the 12F Squadron onboard CdG)
«The Rafale is ideal for the job, stresses one of the two duty pilots.
It can climb to 40,000 feet in under two minutes and accelerate very rapidly to supersonic speed. More significantly, it can super-cruise in dry power, even with four missiles and a belly drop tank. Endurance is excellent too, and we can stay airborne up to two hours with one tank.» The pilots also praise the Rafale?s advanced man-machine
interface which considerably reduces their workload"
******************************************************
I hope is it clear for everybody .
As usual , I can upload the Pdf. file for your enjoyement .

Cheers .
 
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Raslin    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise - Thrust/weight: 0.63:1   3/31/2006 1:41:05 AM
TRue, there is no M88-3. However, SNEMCA has created an M88-ECO, which looks to me like it will be the stepping stone to the M88-3.
 
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hybrid    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise - Thrust/weight: 0.63:1   3/31/2006 1:55:21 AM
Trying to find the posts on the M88-ECO out there, any related info would be useful but I do believe its still in a totally different class (this being a spec thing not necessarily a performance wise issue).
 
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Raslin    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise - Thrust/weight: 0.63:1   3/31/2006 1:59:54 AM
Well, one of Bluewings pdf's mentioned it, and my yahoo search brought up a few points, though mostly reiteration of the pdf's.
 
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leroy    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise - Thrust/weight: 0.63:1   3/31/2006 8:39:00 AM
"M88-3" This engine does not exist. Its development is not funded. Lets restrict this discussion to real engines.
 
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leroy    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise - Thrust/weight: 0.63:1   3/31/2006 8:41:30 AM
"TRue, there is no M88-3. However, SNEMCA has created an M88-ECO, which looks to me like it will be the stepping stone to the M88-3." Well in ten years if there is something like an M88-3 flying, we can compare it to what the F119 version of that decade is achieving. Until then, lets restrict ourselves to engines that EXIST.
 
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french stratege    Again uncorrect data   3/31/2006 9:08:38 AM
What exist is a M88-2-E2 with a 8 tons rating sold in Singapore proposal. F16 E Weights: 21,000 pounds empty so the same than Rafale.The General Electric F110-132 is a development of the -129 model and is rated at 32,500 lbf (144 kN). Rafale has one and a half ton more thrust in Singapore version with a lower bypass ratio so a much bigger real trust in transonic or supersonic conditions. You have proven you are unaware of basics in military technology and still unable to collect data.
 
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french stratege    RE:Again uncorrect data (hop typo error)   3/31/2006 9:11:03 AM
sorry M88-2 E4 of course
 
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leroy    RE:Again uncorrect data   3/31/2006 10:02:08 AM
"What exist is a M88-2-E2 with a 8 tons rating sold in Singapore proposal." Lol... "proposal" How about we talk about engines that are flying on ACTUAL JETS? F-16 block 60 29,000lbs normal air-to-air combat load. 19,000lbs dry thrust, 32,500 with afterburning. .66 lbs/lb at dry thrust. 1.12 with AB link Rafale thrust to weight ratio: .63:1 link "You have proven you are unaware of basics in military technology and still unable to collect data." How about you act like a man and admit you are wrong. These thrust to weight ratios are in fact, very very comparable. It is PATHETIC to see you lie and squirm just to try to promote your favorite plane. I mean seriously. What if we all started whipping out the specs for various "proposed" engines? Just grow up, seriously. You aren't fooling anyone here.
 
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hybrid    RE:Again uncorrect data   3/31/2006 3:02:17 PM
FS I think thats because the Snecma publication on the engine is available only through google cache at the moment so I'll paste it here for the link Safran group also has a website about the article as well. Now regarding the actual engine are you saying its equivalent to the GE F110-132 variant? Also regarding your quote on the one and half ton more thrust I believe that is over the original M88-2 stage 1s that are on the Rafales with the Flotille 12 correct? Or am I misunderstanding you on this?
 
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Bluewings    RE:Again uncorrect data   3/31/2006 3:14:08 PM
"Also regarding your quote on the one and half ton more thrust I believe that is over the original M88-2 stage 1s that are on the Rafales with the Flotille 12 correct?" As far as I know , that is correct . BUT , I might have to update my actual knowledge on the actual engine work ~regarding updates~ on the 12F Squadron . FS might be able to answer this one ... Cheers .
 
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hybrid    RE:Again uncorrect data   3/31/2006 4:19:51 PM
Well the only reason I brought it up is because I'm a bit wondering at the end of this statement in that article where they talk about an export variant (also note this article was published in 2002): "This is of course one of the missions assigned to the Rafale, and for the French armed forces it doesn?t need any more power than it offers today: 2 x 7.5 tons of thrust with reheat." So basically I'm wondering if the original was 6 tons of thust (M88-2 stage 1? or M88 orignal spec?) Also I'm wondering if there were more than the original 12 delivered of the stage 4 engine? On further research according to Snecma it looks like 3 were delivered to the Istres based Rafales and the other 9 to the Rafales in Flotille 12. Unfortunately I can't find any further information on what else has happened since then.
 
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Nichevo    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise - Thrust/weight: 0.63:1   4/1/2006 4:37:27 PM
No, karlos, I meant the F-16, not the F-22. As for canards, they were a hot topic during the 80s but subsequently it has been determined their drag and AoA characteristics made them unrewarding for future development. You will notice we're not working on any these days, though they may have use in certain profiles. As for vectored thrust, I thought FS or BW said they decided against that. If I'm wrong, you can't blame me - I read BW's PDFs and they lack much detail.
 
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MadRat    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise - Thrust/weight: 0.63:1   4/1/2006 6:09:44 PM
SNECMA ought to team up with MTU, Rolls, Avia, and itp to create a more common fighter engine. Quite frankly if the EJ200 is better than the M88-4 then it makes little sense to stick Rafale to crap technology for indigenous sakes. SNECMA and its European partners need to be in on development of a common 150 kN class powerplant or they'll never have an F-22 equivalent.
 
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leroy    RE:Rafale AESA and Supercruise - Thrust/weight: 0.63:1   4/2/2006 12:27:14 AM
"Quite frankly if the EJ200 is better than the M88-4 then it makes little sense to stick Rafale to crap technology for indigenous sakes. " This is the story of Rafale's life... seriously. The whole plane is a make-work program. The same could be said for the EF. Frankly both sets of politicians dropped the ball there.
 
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french stratege    independance   4/2/2006 10:45:32 AM
Whatever you may think (wrongly) of our planes capacities, the main point is to avoid a US dependancy to stay independant. Better buy a crappy weapon we can use without any US pressure , than a US weapon even marvelous. And the Rafale and EF are far to be crappy in front of any SU30, F15 or F16. Point.
 
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