How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons?

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giblets Amsar for eurofighter sooner rather than later 3/4/2006 3:11:45 PM

Interestingly, Eurofighter could get the AMSAR set a lot sooner than previously though, with the manufactuers footing the bill link Impatient Industry Pushes AESA Radar for Eurofighter By TOM KINGTON, ROME Convinced that the Eurofighter Typhoon needs an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for export, the European firms building the aircraft have taken the initiative of funding a radar demonstrator that is now being tested by the United Kingdom and Germany. The Captor Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar (CAESAR) demonstrator ? in which Eurofighter firms have invested ?at least 8 million pounds? ($14 million), according to one industrial source ? flew for three hours in the United Kingdom on Feb. 24 on a BAC1-11 test-bed aircraft, Selex S&AS said in a March 2 statement. ?It might have taken the ministries twice as long to get this far on their own,? said the source at a Eurofighter partner firm. CAESAR is the result of three years of research by the Euroradar group of Selex in the United Kingdom, EADS Defence Electronics of Germany, Galileo Avionica of Italy and INDRA of Spain, with the bulk of the funding coming from the British and German firms. The four Eurofighter nations ? Britain, Italy, Germany and Spain ? have signed to have the original, mechanical Captor radar, built by Euroradar, installed on their second tranche fighters and have made no formal request for an upgrade. Paul Holbourn, capabilities director at Selex?s Edinburgh plant, said the Captor processor could be retained during an upgrade to an AESA format. The Eurofighter partner firm source said CAESAR, which could be test flown on a Eurofighter this year, would require ?only a few hours? of work for retrofitting, swapping out the antenna and the power supply. ?The lower life-cycle costs of e-scan would more than cover the cost of the retrofit,? he said. Germany, the United Kingdom and France created the AMSAR program in 1993 to develop an e-scan radar, but after France began to focus on the specific e-scan needs of the Rafale fighter, the United Kingdom and Germany formed a strand of AMSAR known as CECAR, focusing on the Eurofighter. ?Having been fully integrated and tested on the ground, the CAESAR system is currently on loan to the CECAR evaluation program,? said the Selex statement. CECAR is organizing the U.K. test flights, Holbourn said. ?Now it is up to the Eurofighter partner ministries to commit to CAESAR,? said the industrial source. ?No export customer will request an e-scan-equipped Eurofighter until the partners do.?

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Phaid RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -giblets 3/4/2006 3:32:41 PM

SHARs radar capability was so well regarded that they were used as mini-AWACS in the Balkans. I keep seeing this quoted. Is there any source to substantiate that? The Blue Vixen is a fine radar, no doubt about it, but the SHAR doesn't exactly have a huge nose and there's just no getting around physics (even if you're Scottish). And yeah, radar technology has aged quite a lot since the Blue Vixen. The Blue Vixen and the CAPTOR are both mechanically scanned radars -- the "radar picture" is a composite from the many separate returns that come in as the array sweeps across the area being scanned, and the speed at which they can scan an area of space is bound by the mechanical rotation of the array. On the other hand, a modern electronically scanned array is composed of numerous modules which all simultaneously scan a small area and which can steer an individual radar beam electronically. An ideal electronically-scanned radar therefore contains no moving parts and can pretty much instantly scan a huge sweep of sky. Additionally, different modules in the array can perform different tasks, with some performing air search, some performing ground mapping, etc, all operating at different frequencies. For purposes of this discussion it's important to keep in mind that the SU-30MKI's N011M radar is not the ideal ESA described above. It is basically an electronically scanned array grafted onto the front of the mechanically-scanned N011 radar, and basically its only advantage over a radar like CAPTOR is that it can instantly scan within its field of view. However, its field of view is comparatively narrow, requiring mechanical compensation, and it doesn't have the other features possible with advanced electronically scanned radars. And being a passive ESA, its range is limited compared to that of CAPTOR.

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Phaid RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/4/2006 4:52:09 PM

Just another point I forgot to address: Notice for yourself that ANYTIME CAPTOR has had to compete against a ESA or AESA options the Eurofighter recieved a firm swift kick in the arse out the door, first! While the aircraft that Typhoon ultimately lost out to in recent export sales did have ESA or AESA, the competition in Singapore for example started out with the following: Boeing F-15E Strike Eagle, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60, and Sukhoi 30/35. Notice that all but the Eurofighter have ESA or AESA, yet the Typhoon outlasted the Block 60, Sukhoi, and Super Hornet and made it into the downselect before being eliminated in favor of the Rafale and the F-15T which ultimately won. Likewise, the French aggressively marketed the Rafale to the Saudis (the Red Shark exercise etc) yet the Typhoon was selected there. I agree that the lack of an advanced radar set on the Typhoon is a huge problem for it, but clearly just having an ESA does not automatically place any fighter above the Typhoon.

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DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/4/2006 5:36:31 PM

No automatically no. But the Russian ESA is better and does provide a plethora of benefits. Also, Block 60, SH and Sukhio were rejected for reasons other than performance. The Sings were being careful to diversify there supplier based on availability, political considerations and not being limited to a single platform type. And the Saudi's did originally chose the F-16 but also due to political considerations and the deterioration of the US-SA relationship went to the Eurofighter because... a. It allowed a direct Plane for oil deal. France using nuclear power excluded them. b. Historical relationship with UK. Notice there was no competition or fly off. SA procurement is driven by politics and politics alone. In Singapore and SK the Rafale outlasted the Typhoon and infact and funny enough will equip the RN if the F-35 issue doesnt work out. Also in addition to the training advantage the Indians have in this scenario, there are the performance advantages of the SU due to its greater range. Think about it, Flankers could intercept Typhoon ferry flights to Pakistan over almost any point in the Gulf from Indian soil! In the end the the Training of the Indians and the overall marginally superior SU-30MKI would have a very good chance against even RAF standard Typhoons. much less downgraded for export leased SA Typhoons flown by less experienced Pakistani pilots.

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giblets Funniest post i have read in years-DA 3/4/2006 7:27:40 PM

DA is always a good laugh, his posts brighten up my day! >>> a. It allowed a direct Plane for oil deal. France using nuclear power excluded them. The funniest excuse I have heard of in years! France was excluded from the deal because they have nuclear plants! I can?t even be bothered to answer the other ones, still chuckling to myself about that one, managing to sum up your complete lack of knowledge in one go, impressive going.

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MadRat RE:Funniest post i have read in years-DA 3/5/2006 10:46:40 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I've heard about the future radar reciever technology is that it will be spread out across the airframe, like they did with the F-22, in order to maximize sensor spacing and raw density of sensors. The F-22 still has its conventional nose mounted radar, but hidden in the wings, leading edge, and stabilizer are highly sensitive recievers that tune themselves to the surrounding radiation around them, allowing the pilot some comfort from surprise attack and insurance to detect the enemy before his own aircraft is detected. The whole idea of spreading out smaller components was to allow an all-aspect approach using fewer and less expensive overall components relative to what would be required to do the same all-aspect approach using conventional arrays. Before they shrunk the components down and had the data crunching muscle to do it they would of needed four completely seperate arrays. Side looking radar in fighters using phased array technology had been a long term goal to fighter design, but this approach blows that conventional wisdom out of the water altogether. The suite in the F-22 prototype was passive, whereas it could just as easily had been active in future generations. I'm sure electrical comsumption was a design worry for going active, as each tiny array is sure to require alot of energy

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DarthAmerica RE:Funniest post i have read in years-giblets 3/5/2006 11:23:01 AM

F off. Your attempts to turn a discussion into a insult fest is noted. Niether I or Phaid are interested. You see some of us know how to actually debate and have a different opinion without resorting to irrelevant post like yours which incidentally show you have no clue. UK has a long history of recieving payment for arms in the form of oil. In case you havent noticed France has rather different energy needs as a result of one of the most intelligent energy policy on the planet. You teens and young adults without professional experience need to know when to keep your mouth shut. Giblets if you really want to learn something then participate with facts, refute with proof claims you disagree with and stop with your flaming troll post. If you need help read Phaids post to learn ways to disagree without making an idiot of yourself.

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giblets RE:Funniest post i have read in years-giblets 3/5/2006 2:11:08 PM

Once again, you are become a total hypocrite, with most of your posts decending into insults, you can tell me all day how my arguments descend into this kind of thing, but I would only have to pull out all the other posters citing you for this reason to show otherwise. The reason I picked up your post was because it is so very wrong on so many different levels. Not only have you backed this up with further proof that you have little knowledge about this subject. Lets take: >>>In case you havent noticed France has rather different energy needs as a result of one of the most intelligent energy policy on the planet<<<< In case you haven?t noticed, I think you will find that that 38% of Frances energy budget is spent on oil, compared to than the UK (36%) You may also find that France is a larger net user of oil, and the 6th largest oil importer in the world, compared to the UK which is a net exporter of oil. In fact if you look at trade figures, Saudi Arabia still exports more oil to France than to the UK, despite the HUGE Al Yamamah deal, quite why France would decline to have extra oil with high prices at the moment is a mystery, especially bearing in mind their history of selling in the middle east and elsewhere >>>?long history of recieving payment for arms in the form of oil?<<< Other than AL-Yamammah, can you name another? Saudi Arabia has also not bartered oil for military equipment since Al Yamamah, and is not purchasing the Eurofighter in this manner either.

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DarthAmerica RE:Funniest post i have read in years-giblets 3/5/2006 2:27:11 PM

>>>Once again, you are become a total hypocrite, with most of your posts decending into insults, you can tell me all day how my arguments descend into this kind of thing, but I would only have to pull out all the other posters citing you for this reason to show otherwise.<<< ---My post descend into insults made by Europeans with inferiority complexes who would rather not read the truth. Tell you what, find a post where I start the insults and then you might have something. Until then your just talking the usual eurotrash. And you have got no other posters who could back you up with anything more than their own personal biases. Like I said, find a post where I start insulting and then we can talk. >>>The reason I picked up your post was because it is so very wrong on so many different levels. Not only have you backed this up with further proof that you have little knowledge about this subject.<<< ---If its so wrong prove it by posting something to the contrary and I'll happily admit it. Here is a hint, you cant because the details of the deal arent available to you yet. Feel free to disagree with my opinion. Just try and keep your disagreement civil and stop posting hater post. Here is a tip for you, if in your response there is nothing that has to do with the thread topic either pro or con then you are a trolling flamer. Use your adjectives with the message and not the messenger and you will be fine.

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DarthAmerica RE:Funniest post i have read in years-giblets 3/5/2006 2:33:14 PM

Giblets, . I accept that you think I'm wrong, an idiot and a hypocrite. So lets just agree to disagree unless you want to actually discuss the threat topic. Otherwise I'm not interested in talking to you. Thanks in Advance

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