How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons?

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT

Phaid RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/4/2006 12:20:11 AM

If you can claim with a straight face that an aircraft with a massive RCS will detect another aircraft with a much lower RCS at the same range -- especially when the aircraft with the smaller RCS has a radar which has a longer range according to public sources -- then you're obviously operating with a different set of axioms than I am. Likewise your claim that "stealth solutions have to be complete end to end" as an attempt to dismiss RCS reduction measures in this context is either a bad attempt at sophistry or stems from a lack of understanding. You claim that the N011M -- a radar so flawed that its array had to be put on gimbals just to meet its basic requirements, thereby adding weight and complexity, and nullifying nearly all of the potential advantages ESA -- is somehow more advanced than CAPTOR. Yet you have never established how this supposed technological edge provides any advantage, especially when public sources credit it with equal range to the CAPTOR at best and lesser range usually. You say "The Russian radar is superior technologically speaking and does in fact have a means to overcome its limits. ... The Europeans are in a rush to replace CAPTOR ASAP for these reasons." I guess you should then look into why the Indians want to replace the N011M Bars with the Irbis radar by 2010. All of the other points, about picking location of engagement etc, are like some kind of weird aerial game of Calvinball.... As far as tactics and training, I already said that assuming this scenario occurred in real life, the Typhoon pilots would be completely outclassed by the IAF drivers, but purely for the sake of argument we're assuming that both sides have equally qualified pilots.

Quote Reply

DarthAmerica RE:Djim I think we could reach consensus on the R-27 -Djim 3/4/2006 12:28:59 AM

>>>It isn't some kind of mystical silent killer,<<< ---I didnt say it was. >>>and it isn't effective at all against aircraft using active homing missiles<<< ---No, its effective against aircraft using radar or ECM. Think in the context of the scenario. No AWACS.

Quote Reply

DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/4/2006 12:50:41 AM

Phaid be realistic. FOr all the flaws of the N011M. CAPTOR is even more flawed. Its ancient dated technology. Extremely vulnerable to jamming, failure prone and shorter ranges then the Russian set. What ever source is telling you otherwise is grossly mistaken. Also the Typhoon has very minimal RCS reduction and would be detected with ease in any operation configuration. Now Phaid I do respect you. But you are wrong and futher the Typhoon as it is now would be a death trap in air to air combat against a SU-30 with equal or superior pilots. Do a little research and read for yourself the Europeans discribing the flaws of the CAPTOR. Notice for yourself that ANYTIME CAPTOR has had to compete against a ESA or AESA options the Eurofighter recieved a firm swift kick in the arse out the door, first! Here Phaid, read for yourself what Europeans in a rare moment of clarity will admit... "In the next few years there will be a number of upgrades to the systems software till Final Operational Capability is attained. Following this a number of hardware upgrades are planned. These involve changing a number of both the shop replaceable items and line replaceable units. These upgrades will focus on improving resolution and ECCM capabilities. The next upgrades will see a switchover to off-the-shelf components. Even with these improvements there are a number of fundamental weaknesses in the CAPTOR's design such as; relatively slow scanning speeds compared to newer technology arrays, relative ease of detection, effects on RCS, etc." ...Thats from one of the more over the top Eurofighter apologist. More on the so called LO characteristics of the Typhoon if necessary. But I dont think you would need it. Talk of Eurofighter and LO are nothing more than marketing hype. For all practical purposes an AESA equipped F-15 is stealthier than a Eurofighter.

Quote Reply

giblets RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/4/2006 7:38:03 AM

According to the information from AFM magazine 05/2004 , the maximally effective detection range for Captor to the following targets shall be: a. 275~320 km+ for RCS = 10 m2 target (F-15, Su-27) b. 154~180 km+ for RCS = 1m2 target (F-16, MIG-29 SMT) c. 87~100 km+ for RCS = 0.1m2 target (F/A-18 E/F, Rafale) d. 49~57 km+ for RCS = 0.01 m2 target (NG stealthy cruise missies) e. 28~38 km+ for RCS = 0.001~0.002 m2 target (F-35 A/B/C) f. 16~ 27 km+ for RCS = 0.0001~0.0005 m2 target (F/A-22) As for the No-11M radar of Su-30MKI, according to the: link (Page 3) The maximally effective detection range for No-11M to the following targets shall be: a. 245 km for RCS = 10 m2 target (F-15, Su-27) b. 137 km for RCS = 1m2 target (F-16, MIG-29 SMT) c. 78 km for RCS = 0.1m2 target (F/A-18 E/F, Rafale) d. 45 km for RCS = 0.01 m2 target (NG stealthy cruise missies) e. 25~30 km for RCS = 0.001~0.002 m2 target (F-35 A/B/C) f. 14~21 km for RCS = 0.0001~0.0005 m2 target (F/A-22) And the weight of the two radars are: Captor: 193 kg N0-11M: 650 kg EF-2000: 0.05~0.25 m2 according to different sources of military information. Su-30MKI: > 10 m2, but it is said that with the introduction of Russian LO-techonology, it may be reduced to the 1~3 m2 class in the future. According to the formula and the radars' capability of the two fighters mentioned above, in head-to-head BVR engagement, the maximally effective detective / tracking range of: 1. Captor to Su-30 MKI (RCS > 10 m2): (A) > 220 km / > 132~154 km according to the information from Mr. Billsweetman. (B) > 275~320 km / > 165~224 km according to the information from AFM 2004/05. 2. Captor to Su-30 MKI+ (RCS 1~3 m2): (A) 124~163 km / 74~114 km according to the information from Mr. Billsweetman. (B) 154~237 km / 92~166 km according to the information from AFM 2004/05. 3. N0-11M to EF-2000 (RCS = 0.05~0.25 m2): 66~98 km / 40~70 km. Therefore, if EF-2000 equips BVRAAMs that are long-leg enough, such as: # AIM-120C7 (Effective range: 60~90 km; Range of NEZ: 40~50 km), # AIM-120D (Effective range: 75~110 km; Range of NEZ: 50~60 km), # Meteor (Effective range: 150~200 km+; Range of NEZ: 80~100 km+) and so on, it shall be able to "First Look, First Lock, and First Shoot and Kill" the Su-30MKI before the later can track and lock back (or even just detect) the former by its radar theoretically. Thanks to Toan for putting the figures together

Quote Reply

giblets RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/4/2006 7:52:06 AM

Reduction of yhe 'large radar return of the Captor' The radome is comprised of a complex layered Glass Fibre Reinforced Plastic (GFRP) structure manufactured using very high tolerance automated processes. Since the material used to construct the radome must be transparent to microwave energy it is an obvious source of Radar Cross Section (RCS) reduction problems. To overcome this, BASE, British Aerospace Systems and Equipment who supply the radome structure have developed various Frequency Sselective Surface (FSS) materials which have been subsequently put to use in the Typhoon's radome. FSS materials are composed of a precisely defined array of metallic elements contained within a conducting frame. The use of these materials (when laid up in the correct fashion) results in a reduction in the transmission of all out of band frequencies. Therefore the radome can be designed to be transparent only to those frequencies and polarisation's used by the aircraft's own radar. The Su-30's can share information, guessing DA has never heard of JTIDS ?

Quote Reply

olive greens RE:How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons? 3/4/2006 9:14:02 AM

Disclaimer: Didnt mean to drop a flame and run... I just dont know enough about radars to participate. I am following this closely and learning some things and googling up a lot more. About Pakistani pilots: They have slightly fewer number of hours per annum than Indians, they are suffering fron spare parts issue with their F-16s but otherwise quite competent. Pakistani lack of effective bombers means that they spend more time in interceptions and dog-fighting than Indians (their kill count over time is slightly higher than Indians', but as they say "You win engagements, we win wars"). They are just as aggressive as German pilots (whom Indians had an opportunity to observe in Alaska recently). Their single biggest negative would probably be that they are not nearly as hands-on-craft as Indian pilots. About "Saudi" pilots: Many currently "Saudi" pilots are in fact Pakistanis. For Sauds its both a political and practical to have some reliable foreigners (Sunni Muslims and far away) on their military

Quote Reply

DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -giblets 3/4/2006 12:04:06 PM

>>>and so on, it shall be able to "First Look, First Lock, and First Shoot and Kill" the Su-30MKI before the later can track and lock back (or even just detect) the former by its radar theoretically.<<< ---Good thing you threw in theoretically! Otherwise I'd have to call BS. First of all the RCS numbers for the EF2000 are way off. The F-18E has a lower signature. Second the frequency that passes through the Typhoon Radome is X-band. And finally the extremely noisy CAPTOR would alert every ELINT harvesting system to its presense including the RWR on the SU-30MKI. >>>The Su-30's can share information, guessing DA has never heard of JTIDS ?<<< ---JTIDS? Will downgraded Saudi Arabian Typhoons have this system? Possibly. AFAIK, feel free to correct me if Im wrong, they dont have it as of March 2006. I know there was a request for 165 or so terminals in Oct 03. Thats another thing, training. Indians would be familiar with their system, have established doctrine and training methods. So the advantage still goes to India IMO.

Quote Reply

giblets RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -giblets 3/4/2006 1:22:15 PM

>>>Good thing you threw in theoretically! Otherwise I'd have to call BS<<< Well its never stopped you before! With or without evidence, perhaps you can show some evidence that the RCS is higher?

Quote Reply

Phaid RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -giblets 3/4/2006 2:41:15 PM

>>>Good thing you threw in theoretically! Otherwise I'd have to call BS<<< Well its never stopped you before! With or without evidence, perhaps you can show some evidence that the RCS is higher? Well, I was hoping to avoid the whole Typhoon / Rafale / Super Hornet RCS urination prowess demonstration once again. But even if you just pessimistically give the Eurofighter a RCS of "somewhere between the F-16 and the Rafale", it's still no contest. Darth, once again you need to keep in mind that for purposes of this argument we have factored out pilot quality, since as everyone agrees the hypothetical Saudi / Pakistani Typhoon pilots are at a serious training disadvantage vis a vis the IAF. Darth quoted about the CAPTOR: "In the next few years there will be a number of upgrades to the systems software till Final Operational Capability is attained. Following this a number of hardware upgrades are planned. These involve changing a number of both the shop replaceable items and line replaceable units. These upgrades will focus on improving resolution and ECCM capabilities. The next upgrades will see a switchover to off-the-shelf components. Even with these improvements there are a number of fundamental weaknesses in the CAPTOR's design such as; relatively slow scanning speeds compared to newer technology arrays, relative ease of detection, effects on RCS, etc." I don't in any way disagree with that assessment. CAPTOR is a stopgap until AESA is available, just like the other darling European radar, the RBE2. But where the CAPTOR is an excellent conventional radar, and the RBE2 is about as good a PESA set as you can get -- and we know that neither of these is an ideal solution -- the N011M is even worse, with the disadvantages of both ESA (range, power and cooling requirements, lack of redundancy, processing, electrical complexity) and conventional mechanically-steered arrays (slow scanning, weight, mechanical complexity). There's no reason to fall in love with PESA radars in any case. The Rafale-M with its clearly more advanced, fully electronically steered and LPI RBE2 radar, was still deemed inferior by the French for BVR purposes to the APG-73 of the currently fielded Super Hornets. The US has only used passive ESA radars in the B-1B and B-2 bombers, and stayed with conventional and planar array radars on fighters until AESA technology was available. As far as the specific problems you mention, the N011M has almost the same set of issues itself. One of the main concerns that the Irbis radar is supposed to address is new gimbals to increase the field of view and scanning speeed. Likewise, N011M has no LPI features and due to its narrow field of is still fundamentally a mechanically steered radar. Also note that as far as "flexibility" and "number of modes", most of the SU-30MKI's have the initial version of Bars-M with only air to air modes. Finally, regarding RCS, both CAPTOR and N011M are steered arrays (CAPTOR is of course a conventional planar array, while N011M is a steered ESA) so I'm uncertain how there are any RCS benefits for the Flanker. In any case, the massive RCS of the Flanker's airframe makes any reduced signature radar installation moot. One only has to look at the Indian SU-30MKI program to see that the radar is basically a flying testbed. There are currently three different generations of the N011M flying on Indian Sukhois, with the supposedly definitive Irbis radar in development with production hoped for in 2010.

Quote Reply

flamingknives RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -giblets 3/4/2006 3:04:15 PM

One thing I still don't get is this: The CAPTOR is developed from the Blue Vixen radar used in the British Sea Harrier FA.2. SHARs radar capability was so well regarded that they were used as mini-AWACS in the Balkans. While that's a good half-decade ago, does radar really age so quickly?

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT