How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons?

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DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/3/2006 6:55:31 PM

>>>I think both types would certainly detect each other in time to prepare for an engagement and well beyond the range of their weapons. Sure, but the Typhoon will see the Flanker first.<<< ---I disagree. Since you have no facts to disprove that and I dont have any to disprove you. We should accept the disagreement and move on with this point. >>>In which case the SU-30 is probably better equipped to hand off targets. Why?<<< ---Because the SU-30 is designed to be a battle manager and hand off targets. It can direct 4 other fighters simultaneously. >>>It certainly has the fuel on board to better position itself prior to the engagement or to simply flee the area. Typhoon has plenty of range also. You can't assume the location necessarily favors the Flanker.<<< ---False. Typhoons range is very short without drop tanks by comparison. And I dont have to assume. The Flanker commander would choose locations to maximize his strengths. I would. >>>I dont agree on the N011m being immature. Its certainly more advanced than captor technologically speaking being an ESA with superior performance in terms of modes and flexibility. Why? Russians don't have a fantastic track record for radar performance, yet suddenly a radar with clear limits (a 25 degree field of view if not assisted with gimbals!) is "mature technology"? The N011M is basically a N001 with a passive ESA strapped on and some better processing. The Eurofighter Consortium decided that range and proven technology were better than range-limited PESA solutions. The French discovered the hard way that the Eurofighter people were right, and the French certainly have a better track record with avionics than the Russians have.<<< ---Disagree. The Russian radar is superior technologically speaking and does in fact have a means to overcome its limits. A means demonstrated and deemed good by the user. There is a lot to that "some processing" statement that you are taking for granted IMO. The Europeans are in a rush to replace CAPTOR ASAP for these reasons. >>>Modes and flexibility won't help you if your radar doesn't have the range or angles.<<< ---Its got the angles via the gimbals. >>>In the BVR fight the CAPTOR will immediately betray its location from well beyond its ability to detect targets. This is a known acknowledged fact. So will the N011M.<<< ---Yes on the decoy Flanker acting as the hunter. The killers will be silent. acting of off directions. >>>In addition the RCS benefits of the Typhoon are nullified by the mechanical dish from the frontal aspect and of course external fuel and weapons carriage. This is not correct. RCS is not an all or nothing proposition. The Typhoon's overall RCS with weapons is far lower than the SU-30's without weapons. A bunch of AMRAAM missiles have a heck of a lot lower signature than massive angular intakes, canards, twin tails, and the spinning fan blades of two AL-31F's.<<< ---It is correct. EADs even acknowledges this. Stealth solutions have to be complete end to end. Typhoon is by no means stealthy and even from the front where is does manage to keep its RCS in the Mig-21 range. >>>Typhoon and Flanker will get simultaneous look IF the Typhoon is in range to recieve the radar returns. Nope. Typhoon will see the Flanker first, and get a lock on first.<<< ---Nope. SU-30 would probably get the first look. >>>Oh and another thing. Better missiles? Roughly equivilent missiles if you ask me although the AMRAAM is a proven missile. The SU's will have either some variant of the AA-10 which puts them at a serious disadvantage due to SARH and the necessity to keep a lock on the entire way, or AA-12s which are shorter ranged. Either way, the AMRAAM has the advantage.<<< ---IIRC the Indians may be users of the ARH variant of the AA-10. Also where are you getting your range data? R_Max is meaningless with these two fighters or against any modern 4th or 5th gen with high manuverability. And you completely miss the IR homing variants. Id say rough parity in weapons such that tactics would rule the day. The Indians are better trained... >>>What performance advantages? Weak electronics don't help the flanker in BVR, and neither do airshow tricks. The EF has at least equal acceleration and turning ability, not that this matters because if enough Flankers somehow survive to get close to the merge, the Typhoons' ASRAAMs will still outrange the Flankers' R-73s and make any maneuverability differences moot in any case.<<< ---Not talking airshow tricks. And the Flankers electronics are not weak. Its kind of funny when you have to consider that the Typhoons electronics cant even reliably keep it in the sky yet or deploy the landing gear...lol. I'm talking about more fuel so that it can run down, escape from or evade other aircraft. Also I believe R-73 to be in the class of the ASRAAM. And IIRC the improved version of the

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displacedjim RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/3/2006 7:48:02 PM

"---IIRC the Indians may be users of the ARH variant of the AA-10. Also where are you getting your range data? R_Max is meaningless with these two fighters or against any modern 4th or 5th gen with high manuverability. And you completely miss the IR homing variants. Id say rough parity in weapons such that tactics would rule the day. The Indians are better trained..." -- DA ---- I will chime in at this point. First, there are no operational AAM ARMs. Second, AIM-120C definitely has the advantage over AA-12 and AA-10ER at long range, and it has better electronics at any range. AMRAAM outranges them and even when both are in range of each other, AMRAAM gets there first at long range. However, since the Indians can carry Israeli-made EL/L-8202 pods, there might be a bit of a problem getting a long range shot. I'm sure the reverse is also a problem when the Eurofighters use whatever self-protection jamming they carry. The AA-10ET IR homing ALAMO isn't an issue in BVR, as there's no indication that I recall that it can actually be used BVR. Displacedjim

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Herc the Merc A note on Eurofighters RCS & Radar 3/3/2006 7:51:53 PM

Eurofighter marketing literature makes much mileage out of a claimed "stealth" capability, acquired by the use of S-bend inlet tunnels and selective application of radar absorbent materials. The design spec is claimed to have included bounds on RCS performance. The Typhoon's avionic package is built essentially upon the technology base used in the teen series fighters, but employs a higher level of integration against established in service teen series types. The centrepiece of the avionic package is the X-band (I/J-band) ECR-90 pulse-Doppler multimode radar, similar in concept to the US Raytheon APG-63/65/70 series and derived from the Blue Vixen (Harrier FRS.2). Eurofighter are claiming twice the output power of the F/A-18's APG-65/73 series (typical power output for this class is 10 kW peak), and twice the detection range of the F-16's APG-68. However, in the absence of published data on the ECR-90's mechanically steered planar array aperture size, and peak power ratings, it is impossible to robustly verify these assertions. The radar is frequently credited with a detection range advantage over the F-15's APG-63/70 series, a necessity for the intended use of ramjet BVR missiles with an 80 NMI class A-pole range. In terms of modes the ECR-90 incorporates the typical package we are familiar with in the teen series, or equivalents. Eurofighter emphasise the rapid slew rate of the planar array. At this time an active phased array, the AMSAR, is in development as an upgrade to the ECR-90 and the Rafale's RBE2 passive phased array. The AMSAR/ECR-90 is technologically in the same category as the APG-68 ABR (F-16C/B.60) and APG-73 RUG III. It is expected to be available by around 2005, and would provide like the ABR and RUG III improved BVR performance, much lower sidelobes, interleaved search and engagement modes and the potential for interleaved terrain following and ground attack modes. AMSAR offers the potential for LPI operation, but would require further design optimisations and a fundamental redesign of many portions of the ECR-90 back end. The ECR-90 is supplemented by two passive sensors. The Pilkington Optronics PIRATE mid-wave IRS&T/FLIR can be used for detection, identification and terrain avoidance, with eight discrete operating modes. It is tightly integrated with the radar's functions and either can be slaved to the other. In the absence of aperture and detector size data it is impossible to estimate the effective range under clear sky conditions. The assertion that the aircraft has a "stealth" capability is curious by any measure, since there is no evidence of planform alignment, panel edge alignment, blending or faceting, all established techniques used and proven on US types such as the F-117A, B-2A, YF-23A, F-22A and the JSF prototypes. Indeed the external carriage of stores alone would make the Typhoon's radar signature at least 10-100 times greater than the golfball to insect sized RCS we are accustomed to with US types. Unless the Europeans have invented new laws of radar scattering, the aircraft is at best a conventional fighter with reduced forward sector RCS, comparable to evolved F/A-18, F-16 variants, the Rafale or the B-1B.

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DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 7:58:08 PM

>>>I will chime in at this point. First, there are no operational AAM ARMs.<<< ---Are you sure about no operational AAM ARMs? Not that I dont believe you. But I though there were well, never mind...;) Yes the AMRAAM is superior. But Im not exacly sure if the Saudi Typhoons will fly with the latest in AMRAAM technology.

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DarthAmerica RE:A note on Eurofighters RCS & Radar 3/3/2006 7:59:20 PM

Kopp

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gf0012-aust RE:A note on Eurofighters RCS & Radar 3/3/2006 8:18:12 PM

Its customary to quote the source when you cut and paste comments. link

note that Dr Kopp is a Dr in Engineering and specialises in mobile phone technology

note the date of the article

note that Dr Kopps agenda is to talk up the capability of the Su27 series as it is his agenda in supporting retaining the F-111 for long range strike and for the F-22 (if cheaper) for maintaining RAAF dominance in region. ergo - when you cut and paste articles - know the authors motives.

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gf0012-aust RE:A note on Eurofighters RCS & Radar 3/3/2006 8:30:53 PM

Just to add some more colour in the credibility of Kopps assessment.

Kopp sees Su-27's as the raison de vivre to sustain the F-111

Kopp sees Su-27 users as being on the Australian threat matrix. Strangely enough that inlcudes India as well as China. Apart from India always wanting to flog Aust in the cricket - I think the notion that they want to attack australia is somewhat "cavalier of thought". I am being excessively polite and generous with restraint here. as I said before, quoting without context is a dangerous and disingeuous past time. rather than enhance the quality of response it denotes a somewhat mischievous attempt to load the bases. on a side note, I know of at least 20 Oz defence professionals who wrote to some Oz defence and aviation related magazines and indicated that they'd terminated their subscriptions whilst Kopp was still a contributing editor. Issues of geared statements etc were offered as reasons for discontent. He no longer edits for some of those publications. He does fantastic matrices where he doesn't contribute his own views of analysis, beyond that its like accepting david irvings take of the "solution".

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displacedjim RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 9:17:15 PM

I've never seen anything convincing showing operational use of the AA-10E/F ARM variants. If somebody knows of something that does, feel free to correct me. I'd definitely be interested in seeing it. Displacedjim

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DarthAmerica Djim I think we could reach consensus on the R-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 10:56:31 PM

Here is the missile in question on exibit at Farnborough...

That was three years ago. This missile is available now if the price is right. So whether or not India has it is rather irrelevant considering the Saudi Typhoons dont exist either, nor do we know what weapons package would accompany them. So it is indeed withing the scope of the debate to include this openly available weapon system give its obvious benefit to the potential and hypothetical user and the desire of the seller to supply it. Needless to say, a weapon like this would be almost certainly make a BVR engagement against a SU-30, with its suAWACs capability, vs a non AWACS supported Typhoon even more suicidal.

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Phaid RE:Djim I think we could reach consensus on the R-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 11:34:19 PM

R-27P? You have to be kidding. This was deployed in the late 80s by the Russians and was a viable concept during the days when NATO fighters used AIM-7s and other SARH missiles. The entire idea is to get the other guy to turn off his radar and break lock, or disrupt AWACS operations by doing the same. It isn't some kind of mystical silent killer, and it isn't effective at all against aircraft using active homing missiles.

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