How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons?

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT

Herc the Merc UK vs India Oct '06-- 3/3/2006 5:09:25 PM

Quote Reply

Phaid RE:UK vs India Oct '06-- 3/3/2006 5:11:45 PM

As a logical step ahead, the RAF has proposed an air exercise with the IAF in October/November 2006 to be conducted in India (RAF plan is to field the Tornados, AWACS and Tanker aircraft). The IAF has accepted the RAF proposal and is looking forward to the exercise code named UKINEX'06 After which I'm sure we will see lots of Bharat-Rashak posters crowing about how they humiliated the UK Tornados in WVR contests when outnumbering them 3:1 and having limited the RAF BVR performance to 20-mile Sky Flash equivalents.

Quote Reply

Herc the Merc The real game is AWACs 3/3/2006 5:18:46 PM

British E-2D Hawkeye vs Israeli Phalcons (India scheduled to receive in 2007). I am sure the English will be well "toast"--pass the clotted cream with strawberries somebody and ohh don't forget the Indian tea to wash it down with. The sun has set on the British empire...Now buy JSF or the E-2 hawkeye shipments stop.

Quote Reply

Phaid RE:The real game is AWACs 3/3/2006 5:27:29 PM

The British don't have E-2D Hawkeyes. They have E-3D Sentry.

Quote Reply

Herc the Merc Manoever question 3/3/2006 5:47:55 PM

Say a superior AWAC discovered an English fighter, could the AWAC dispatch its plane top speed say Mach2,7 (Mig-31) and just fire its BVR, and fly past our British friend in flames ie the Eurofighter would have no chance to even launch and even if it did the Mig-31 would be out of the BVR missiles envelope.

Quote Reply

DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/3/2006 5:50:43 PM

>>>You conveniently omit that the Typhoon has an advanced RWR (almost certainly more advanced than that in the SU) of its own. Which puts the advantage right back in the Typhoon's court. Typhoon also has advanced target handoff capabilities, horizontal situation display, etc.<<< ---Its no omition. Look at the defensive avionics suite of the SU-30 and think again. THis aint your typical Russian Cold War quantity over quality bird. Id say that avionics wise and using requirments as the baseline the two aircraft are roughly equal. >>>As far as the radar capabilities, the N011M has no range advantage over CAPTOR and public sources tend to give N011M an inferior range than CAPTOR. Beyond that, it is known that the "semi-PESA" N011M has a narrow field of view -- the array is on a 3D gimbal system which attempts to address this problem, but it's still something of a kludge and clearly shows that N011M is immature technology. This would cause problems for your whole "mini-AWACS" concept, and with the narrow radar field of view, the Flankers will be limited to using "wall" tactics the way pre-AESA F-15Cs are. Meanwhile, CAPTOR is based on well proven technology and doesn't suffer from these sorts of problems, and although it is not comparable to an AESA it will allow more tactical flexibility than the N011M.<<< ---I think both types would certainly detect each other in time to prepare for an engagement and well beyond the range of their weapons. In which case the SU-30 is probably better equipped to hand off targets. It certainly has the fuel on board to better position itself prior to the engagement or to simply flee the area. I dont agree on the N011m being immature. Its certainly more advanced than captor technologically speaking being an ESA with superior performance in terms of modes and flexibility. >>>So the bottom line in this scenario is that the SU has no advantages in terms of sensors. In a BVR fight it will be seen first because the CAPTOR has at least equal range while the Typhoon has lower RCS, and it will die because the Typhoon has better missiles.<<< ---In the BVR fight the CAPTOR will immediately betray its location from well beyond its ability to detect targets. This is a known acknowledged fact. Remeber the scenario, no AWACs. In addition the RCS benefits of the Typhoon are nullified by the mechanical dish from the frontal aspect and of course external fuel and weapons carriage. Typhoon and Flanker will get simultaneous look IF the Typhoon is in range to recieve the radar returns. Also the RCS benefits of the Typhoon exist only in the Frontal arc. this would require the Typhoon pilot to know where the flanker is inthe first place. If the Flanker CAPs are seperated then you can be sure one of them will have a detection advantage. Also remember the vulnerability to jamming of the CAPTOR. Oh and another thing. Better missiles? Roughly equivilent missiles if you ask me although the AMRAAM is a proven missile. Lets face it. THe SU-30 and Typhoon are roughly equal in terms of sensors and weapons. But the performance of the Flanker puts it ahead just enough that we could give the Flanker the nod on this one. ALso the closer a Typhoon moves into Flanker territory and away from its base the more of an advantage the Flanker would have. The Typhoon will be low on fuel and have a limited window to ingage in a2a combat before having to RTB while the flanker would be able to remain in the fight for much longer and have much more energy available to it to evade missiles and do WVR. Add to this the Flankers advantages in Speed, Range, manuverability, potential energy and deployment flexibility.

Quote Reply

DarthAmerica RE:Manoever question 3/3/2006 5:54:28 PM

I thought the thread said no AWACS!!!

Quote Reply

Herc the Merc RE:Manoever question 3/3/2006 6:02:36 PM

Quote Reply

Phaid RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/3/2006 6:20:05 PM

I think both types would certainly detect each other in time to prepare for an engagement and well beyond the range of their weapons. Sure, but the Typhoon will see the Flanker first. In which case the SU-30 is probably better equipped to hand off targets. Why? It certainly has the fuel on board to better position itself prior to the engagement or to simply flee the area. Typhoon has plenty of range also. You can't assume the location necessarily favors the Flanker. I dont agree on the N011m being immature. Its certainly more advanced than captor technologically speaking being an ESA with superior performance in terms of modes and flexibility. Why? Russians don't have a fantastic track record for radar performance, yet suddenly a radar with clear limits (a 25 degree field of view if not assisted with gimbals!) is "mature technology"? The N011M is basically a N001 with a passive ESA strapped on and some better processing. The Eurofighter Consortium decided that range and proven technology were better than range-limited PESA solutions. The French discovered the hard way that the Eurofighter people were right, and the French certainly have a better track record with avionics than the Russians have. Modes and flexibility won't help you if your radar doesn't have the range or angles. In the BVR fight the CAPTOR will immediately betray its location from well beyond its ability to detect targets. This is a known acknowledged fact. So will the N011M. In addition the RCS benefits of the Typhoon are nullified by the mechanical dish from the frontal aspect and of course external fuel and weapons carriage. This is not correct. RCS is not an all or nothing proposition. The Typhoon's overall RCS with weapons is far lower than the SU-30's without weapons. A bunch of AMRAAM missiles have a heck of a lot lower signature than massive angular intakes, canards, twin tails, and the spinning fan blades of two AL-31F's. Typhoon and Flanker will get simultaneous look IF the Typhoon is in range to recieve the radar returns. Nope. Typhoon will see the Flanker first, and get a lock on first. Oh and another thing. Better missiles? Roughly equivilent missiles if you ask me although the AMRAAM is a proven missile. The SU's will have either some variant of the AA-10 which puts them at a serious disadvantage due to SARH and the necessity to keep a lock on the entire way, or AA-12s which are shorter ranged. Either way, the AMRAAM has the advantage. Lets face it. THe SU-30 and Typhoon are roughly equal in terms of sensors and weapons. But the performance of the Flanker puts it ahead just enough that we could give the Flanker the nod on this one. ALso the closer a Typhoon moves into Flanker territory and away from its base the more of an advantage the Flanker would have. The Typhoon will be low on fuel and have a limited window to ingage in a2a combat before having to RTB while the flanker would be able to remain in the fight for much longer and have much more energy available to it to evade missiles and do WVR. What performance advantages? Weak electronics don't help the flanker in BVR, and neither do airshow tricks. The EF has at least equal acceleration and turning ability, not that this matters because if enough Flankers somehow survive to get close to the merge, the Typhoons' ASRAAMs will still outrange the Flankers' R-73s and make any maneuverability differences moot in any case.

Quote Reply

gf0012-aust RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/3/2006 6:21:03 PM

" I dont agree on the N011m being immature. " eg: how well do you think a gimbal mount system will "survive" and function as expected on a TVC aircraft? there are known problems with those systems. the advantages of TVC aircraft are somewhat negated by high manouvre missiles. still, it's relevant if you're indulging in an aerial version of "kiss chasey". in an environment where you fight long distance as much as possible - and with combined support assets like AWACs - "kiss chasey" is not going to be the norm. Outside of that? I'm yet to be convinced. And that initial briefing document about how good the Su-27 was is 9 years old - within 12 months every modern western based airforce had worked on counters - the RAAF certainly had work arounds - so one must assume that we'd indulged in "show and tell" with the USAF and some of the ex Russian/Ukrainian pilots that were recruited by BAEA in the mid 90's for contract work. I personally know of 2 Ukrainians and 1 Russian we "fast tracked" Visas for and who ended up in the US on BAEa aircraft support contracts. If I see that pugachev document displayed anymore as an example of Su27 current superiority I'll go postal.

Quote Reply

PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT