How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons?

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Herc the Merc RE:How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons? 3/2/2006 1:09:15 PM

The SU-30MKI has Bars radar which is longer range - so it would acquire the Typhoon first and shoot it down. Notice the big nose of SU-30MKI--obviously they gave up stealth for size to put in a big radar. Always wondered how its rear radar capabilty was??

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Yimmy RE:How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons? 3/2/2006 1:13:53 PM

The Su30 wouldnt stand a chance against the Typhoon, if they were both flown by skilled pilots, but with the Saudis and Pakistanis flying, who knows.

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Herc the Merc RE:How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons? 3/2/2006 1:42:14 PM

How is that Yimmy, SU-30MKI has the Bars radar- and a big nose diameter--here is a clipping Now take ur Typhoons and do what UK does best- fool people in the Middle East.. LOL "Aircraft combat capabilities are usually assessed using complex efficiency indicators defining aircraft overall performance. According to preliminary estimates, in long-range air combat, the Su-30MKI outperforms the F-16C Block 60, F-16C Block 50 and F-18E/F aircraft by 15, 20 and 12-15 percent, respectively, owing to its radar?s greater detection range, higher jamming immunity and multichannel capability, as well as better maneuverability. he Su-30MKI?s supermaneuverability and better air-to-air missiles give this aircraft superiority in close air combat in which it excels the F-16C Block 50 by 10-15 percent, F-16C Block 60 by 20-30 percent (as the high wing loading significantly limits its maneuverability in close-range combat), and F-18E/F by 15-20 percent."

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DarthAmerica RE:How would Su-30 MKIs fare against export (Saudi) Typhoons? 3/2/2006 1:46:25 PM

>>>The Su30 wouldnt stand a chance against the Typhoon<<< ---Thats false. The two types are close enough in performance that the end result would depend on the pilots and tactics. Without defining the scenario in any more detail this could go either way.

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Herc the Merc Check that nose out- BIGGG!!!!! 3/2/2006 1:54:53 PM

link Today the fighter with the biggest nose wins. There is one hell of a radar in there--size matters.

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Herc the Merc Comments from an Indian discussion board regarding SU-30MKI & Eurof++++ as they call it 3/2/2006 1:57:59 PM

"I'd like to know what magical features the Eurofarter has to help it manuever better than a TVC equipped fighter in BVR A-pole and F-pole? It also looses out on beam agility, range and LPI. Its radar certainly won't be able to generate missile quality track data at amazing ranges. AIM-120C range is 50 km ballistic, with 37 km being the normal launch range. If you are trying to suggest that manueverability does'nt matter in BVR, you are wrong. Even in pure early detection, SA building, the Farter looses out."

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Herc the Merc SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 3/2/2006 2:24:17 PM

link "I will never forget the first display flight of the Su-27 in Paris, organized by the British Aerospace along with designers and test pilots of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, - recalls John Farlight - a fighter pilot in the Royal Air Force. - Victor Pugachev was turning his Su-27 360-deg in 10 seconds, the average rate of turn - 36 deg/sec. At that time we could only hope that our next-generation fighter could achieve 25 deg/sec. This is the kind of speed that pilot should be able to turn his plane at to have the entire weapons suit ready for an attack. If we would imagine that our new plane encounter an Su-27 in combat, after 10 second all it will be able to do is to lower the gear and land, if it's lucky. Much of what I've seen at the airshow can be used in real aerial combat. To an average observer an airshow is just a superficial action, but if you are one of the aviation industry experts, a fighter's maneuvering will tell you about its flight limits. Naturally, when you see that there are no limits for an Su-27 or that the aircraft can go vertical, stop, slides down and than resumes normal flight and performs this not once, not twice but time after time, you realize that this is not an exception, not a trick, but a standard. Complexity of this particular maneuver is not in initiating the maneuver but in exiting from it. Usually we are not allowed to exceed 20-25-deg. angles of attack: if we go over it, we lose control of the machine... But the Russians perform their maneuvers, while changing the angle of attack in a wide range, while remaining confident in their control of the aircraft with absolutely symmetrical aerodynamics. The same applies to the engines. The Western engines "suffer" from the strict limitations on the angle of attack. When flying our fighters one has to think about the enemy's maneuvers and about one's own limitations from the aerodynamics point of view, about what a pilot should not do. Of course this is not a very comfortable situation for the pilot. For him it's much easier when he can do anything that is necessary to target the enemy and to pursue him. What the Russians have achieved has astonished us to the bottom of our souls."

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displacedjim RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 3/3/2006 1:55:28 PM

One of the most common over-simplifications on aviation buff bulletin boards: Bigger radar = first look. ---- One of the most common errors/gross over-simplifications on aviation buff bulletin boards: Better low speed airshow acrobatics ability = better WVR combat ability. Displacedjim

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DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 2:04:08 PM

Followed closely by the assumption that a planes V_Max makes it better than another...

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DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 2:06:19 PM

Djim, I wouls argue that a SU-30MKI would have at least equal detection range on a Typhoon if not greated in some cases. This has nothing to do with dish size BTW.

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Phaid RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 3:25:41 PM

I wouls argue that a SU-30MKI would have at least equal detection range on a Typhoon if not greated in some cases. This has nothing to do with dish size BTW. Why? The SU has an absolutely massive RCS, whereas the Typhoon is well documented as having lots of RCS reduction measures that put it in the same ballpark as the Rafale and the Super Hornet. And there's nothing wrong with the Typhoon's CAPTOR radar in terms of pure detection performance; it will easily see a massive radar target like the SU well before the SU can see the Typhoon, regardless of which set has the greatest absolute range. If we assume that the SU-30MKI and Typhoon are piloted by equal pilots, with no offboard support, I can't see how the SUs have much of a chance. They'll get killed in BVR well before the merge, because of the Typhoons' awareness and weapons advantages. If the fight goes WVR, the odds narrow to the point where basically whichever side survived to the merge with the most aircraft will win. In real life though, I wouldn't give the Typhoons much of a chance. The Typhoons would have to be flown by either Saudi "advisers" or hastily-trained PAF pilots. Saudi pilots are at an enormous training disadvantage -- about 36 hours a year flight time, compared to the average Indian pilot who gets 180-200 hours. Unless the PAF pilots went to the UK for some serious training first, they'd be in real trouble.

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ArtyEngineer RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/3/2006 3:29:11 PM

"the Typhoon is well documented as having lots of RCS reduction measures that put it in the same ballpark as the Rafale and the Super Hornet." - Phaid Is it? can you give some links? I honestly thought that RCS reduction on the Typhoon was NOT in the same ballpark as the Rafale and Super Hornet.

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Phaid RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Phaid 3/3/2006 3:39:33 PM

For purposes of comparison against an SU-30MKI, yes, Typhoon's frontal RCS is in the same ballpark. It's generally safe to assume that at BVR ranges, the frontal RCS of those three aircraft is low enough that weapons carriage becomes more of an RCS issue than the airframe itself. This is absolutely not the case for the SU-30MKI.

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displacedjim RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 3:56:18 PM

"I wouls argue that a SU-30MKI would have at least equal detection range on a Typhoon if not greated in some cases. This has nothing to do with dish size BTW." -- DA ---- I don't know enough about Eurofighter to dispute you, so I'll at least believe you could be right. Displacedjim

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DarthAmerica RE:SU-30MKI specs + interview with RAF pilot about the SU-27 -Djim 3/3/2006 4:18:29 PM

Here is why I think I am correct. Anyone feel free to disagree. CAPTOR is an extremely noisy legacy radar. The SU-30MKI advanced RWR system will detect its presence from well beyong the CAPTORS ability to detect the SU-30. IIRC the SU-30 even has ARM AAM in its bag of tricks. Now the scenario discribed there are no AWACS present. This implies that the Typhoon would have to use its own Radar to search for targets. This will not only provide the Indian SU-30MIK's with great intelligence as to the locations of the Typhoons. But if an ARM AAM is available it could provide a very stealthy means to engage. The SU-30MKI is able AFAIK to act as a mini-AWACs and designate targets to 4 other SU-30s. So while the Typhoons are handicapped by the lack of AWACS. The SU-30 is not as bad. So you could have a Flight of SU-30 searching the sky for the Typhoons which would have to be doing the same thing revealing themselves to the SU-30s that were prosecuting a passive engagement based on the CAPTORS non LPI operation and target data handed of via SU-30 mini AWACS. Also remember that the Typhoon RCS benefits are not known to be all aspect. So the SU-30s could defeat this through a combination of multiple axis approach and data linked target handoff. By widening the axis one of the flights of SU-30 could even approach outside the CAPTORS detection azmith and elevation and execute a stealthy attack. The SU-30 also has the INTERNAL fuel capacity to have a very flexible variety of options for attack. After an exchange of BVR missiles. The Flanker would also have the persistance and manuverability to out last the Typhoon. Also there is the acknowledged vulnerability of CAPTOR to jamming. Something AMSAR will try to address. None of this means that there is no hope for the Typhoon. But any victory over a SU-30 would be very hard fought. The Russians literally hit the ball out of the park with the SU-30 IMO. If you add the fact that the Indians would be more experienced than Pak or Saudi Pilots in their type then I really think the Typhoons are in trouble.

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