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Subject: What does the Iranian Airforce actually operate?
shawn    1/18/2006 1:53:00 PM
I noticed that in the discussion thread on a possible air-war incolving western air forces against Iran, very little mention was actually made on the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force's (IRIAF) aircraft and capabilities. This has made me quite curious - what are the exact combat capabilities of the IRIAF? Note that Iran is the world's 4th largest oil exporter, and in theory, should be well able to procure new combat aircraft, including advanced types, from Russia and China. Yet all the limited information that I can garner from the web seems to indicate a limited IRIAF operating a mix of mainly very old airframes with conjectual upgrades, unverified new purchases and local designs of unknown quality. Specifically: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/airforce.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/airforce-equipment.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/weapons.htm http://www.scramble.nl/ir.htm The inventory that the IRIAF has is also subject to conjecture, with most sources seem to agree on: F-14 10-15 flyable - local upgrades include Russian avionics and the ability to fire HAWK SAMs? F-4 approximately 40 flyable - modified with Russian avionics? F-5E approximately 60 flyable - local Iranian upgrades? MiG-29 possibily 25, includes new buy and ex Iraqi AF Mirage F1 - 24, all ex Iraqi AF - modified with Russian avionics? Su-25 - 10, includes new buy and ex Iraqi AF Su-24 - 30, includes new buy and ex Iraqi AF I have left out Su-17 Fitters and Chinese F-6, as they aren't as interesting as those listed above. In addition, Iran seems to have developed two F-5 derivatives and 1 trainer: Azarakhsh (Lightning) - an enlarged F-5 design with possibily MiG-29 engines and radar Sa'eqeh (Thunderbolt) - an updated F-5 design with canted tail stabilizers Shafaq (Before the Dawn) - a trainer/light strike aircraft that closely resembles the YAK-130 As I mentioned, Iran has the currency to buy the latest Russian and Chinese fighters like the Su-27 series, but it has primairly tried to develop it's own indigenous aircraft programs, complemented with the purchase of Russian electronic systems and engines. Does anyone have non-classified information that can shed light on the current status of the IRIAF? In an effort to inject some new topics into FBS, let's discuss the following questions: 1. Just how good is the IRIAF today in terms of training and pilot quality? 2. Are the upgraded F-series aircraft still potent? I'm especially curious of the F-14 upgrade, can anyone shed some light on it's likely upgrades? (for example, it's possible that the Iranians could have replaced the AWG-9 with a Russian Phazotron radar) 3. Will Iran buy SU27/30s? 4. Is it possible that Iran has collaborated with China and to some extent Pakistan in military development? (recall that even though they have differing views on Islam, Pakistan did pass Iran some nuclear research material in the mid-1990s) Is it possible that this may lead to an Iranian produced FC-1/JF-17 or J-10? 5. Or, if Iran is increasingly concerned with Pakistan's ties to the US, will they seek to cooperate with India on military aircraft development, such as the Indian LCA? 6. Why did Iran choose to develop F-5 derivatives instead of buying new MiGs or SUs? Apart from wanting to be self-reliant in defense matters, Iran still lacks the capability to produce current engine and avionics systems, and has to buy these, mainly from Russia.
 
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PeregrinePike    RE:What does the Iranian Airforce actually operate?   1/18/2006 2:21:48 PM
5. Or, if Iran is increasingly concerned with Pakistan's ties to the US, will they seek to cooperate with India on military aircraft development, such as the Indian LCA? Keeping in mind Singapore is closer to New Delhi and DC further, you be the judge of my weather gauging: 1. The Kaveri engine currently being used on the LCA is slightly underpowered. So if the LCA is ever to replace all the Mig 21s as it is meant to, it must either get those GE engines or get help in boosting Kaveri engines. In first case it definately cannot antagonize Washington, in second case it might be wise not to rule out all posibilities. 2. Even more ambitious MCA aims to replace a vast array of Russian and French aircrafts. So it must atleast be as good - if not better - than what it replaces, right? It will invariably require Western - if not US - assistance in certain fields. Going by Iranian tendency to upset all Western powers, it would be foolish to do so. 3. What can Iranians offer to offset these legitimate concerns?
 
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Phaid    RE:What does the Iranian Airforce actually operate?   1/18/2006 2:32:04 PM
I've read about Iranian F-14's using Hawk SAMs, and I'm pretty sure I saw a picture of that once. This was pretty much a measure born of desperation during the first Gulf war as their stocks of air to air missiles compatible with American aircraft were depleted. As far as the "upgrades" to the F-14, I suspect they are similarly stopgap measures to keep the aircraft operational. If they did, for example, refit F-14s with a new radar, it was not so much to improve on their performance as to make up for the fact that they simply didn't have the parts to keep their AWG-9s working.
 
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Phaid    F-14A + MIM-23 Hawk   1/18/2006 2:35:50 PM
http://www.afwing.com/gallery/iran/7.jpg"> Why yes, yes I did see such a picture. There are also pictures of F-4s with RIM-66 Standard SM-1 missiles. Gallery here, it helps if you can read Japanese...
 
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Yimmy    RE:F-14A + MIM-23 Hawk   1/18/2006 2:41:19 PM
I wonder how well they worked... given the range of SM-2, maybe it would be a good idea if we tried using it as an air-air missile?
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:What does the Iranian Airforce actually operate?   1/18/2006 2:51:24 PM
>>>Does anyone have non-classified information that can shed light on the current status of the IRIAF? In an effort to inject some new topics into FBS, let's discuss the following questions: 1. Just how good is the IRIAF today in terms of training and pilot quality?<<< ---I would rate them as poor to average at best overall and far below western standards >>>2. Are the upgraded F-series aircraft still potent? I'm especially curious of the F-14 upgrade, can anyone shed some light on it's likely upgrades? (for example, it's possible that the Iranians could have replaced the AWG-9 with a Russian Phazotron radar)<<< ---They are in a very degraded state with the lack of spares. No doubt they have sought ways to offset this but the lack of support from the manufacturer is very bad for the OR rates. >>>3. Will Iran buy SU27/30s?<<< ---No, too politically hot for now. >>>4. Is it possible that Iran has collaborated with China and to some extent Pakistan in military development? (recall that even though they have differing views on Islam, Pakistan did pass Iran some nuclear research material in the mid-1990s) Is it possible that this may lead to an Iranian produced FC-1/JF-17 or J-10?<<< ---Its for sure they have cooperated. FC-1/JF-17 or J-10 possible in upcoming years but not likely given the current tensions. >>>5. Or, if Iran is increasingly concerned with Pakistan's ties to the US, will they seek to cooperate with India on military aircraft development, such as the Indian LCA?<<< ---No, the US has cut off that option with strategic US/Indian alliance. >>>6. Why did Iran choose to develop F-5 derivatives instead of buying new MiGs or SUs? Apart from wanting to be self-reliant in defense matters, Iran still lacks the capability to produce current engine and avionics systems, and has to buy these, mainly from Russia.<<< ---To reduce dependence of outside suppliers. They understand full well the vulnerability inherent in procuring from others. So they are trying to develope their industry to deal with their own needs.
 
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doggtag    F-4 & Standard   1/18/2006 3:32:30 PM
Please keep in mind: in Viet Nam, one of the Wild Weasel weapons was the Standard ARM (yes, a big honkin' anti-radar missile), apparently used with F-4s as well as the F-105 series. Could the pick on the Japanese sight be one of those, or even a variant of Standard Active, the ASM considered in case Harpoon didn't measure up?
 
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displacedjim    RE:What does the Iranian Airforce actually operate?   1/18/2006 3:42:06 PM
Re 3., I think it's not so much a matter of whether Iran wants to or is trying to buy FLANKERs or S-300s, for example, as it is that Russia is not willing to sell them to Iran (due to international, primarily American, pressure). Re 4., considering the long time it took for China to learn how to make FLANKERs with plenty of Russian help, I doubt Iran's nascent aircraft industry can handle much more than F-5s. I bet after serious Chinese help Iran could begin assembling FC-1 or F-10 kits, but I bet manufacturing even just the airframes of these jets will be beyond Iran's capabilities for quite a few years yet. As for manufacturing the avionics, engines, etc., forget about it! Re 6., like DA said, it seems to me Iran dreams big and wants to run with the big dogs someday, so it wisely is taking some initial steps now. Displacedjim
 
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Galrahn    RE:What does the Iranian Airforce actually operate?   1/18/2006 3:49:16 PM
95 AH-1J attack helicopters (60%) 24 Su-24 (80%) 30 MiG-29 (80%) 39 F-4 (60%) 14 F-14 (50%) That was what I heard in an interview with John Pike on TV either last week or week before. Considering you quoted his website, his most recent statements were likely more accurate. Doesn't matter, the life expectancy of an Iranian airforce pilot would be about 15 seconds after detection if a shooting war broke out. The real threat Iran has is SAM based, not air based defense against airstrikes. And the real airborn threats of Iran are missiles, not aircraft, although Iran has used attack helicopters in the Gulf effectively in the past against both Iraq and UAE, so that could be something to watch out for. In that same interview, some other guy I didn't catch his name said he thinks air strikes will happen all of a sudden, by the US, and he predicted it would be quick and effective, not giving Iran any warning or indiction prior to bombs falling to prevent them from dispersing their materials. He said if Iran attempts any counterstrike, follow on strikes would deploy to destroy every Iranian military system in their country for weeks, but no ground troops besides SOF would be used. I saw the interview while working out at the gym, was the most interesting thing I have seen on CNN in months.
 
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TheArmchairCmd    RE:What does the Iranian Airforce actually operate?   1/18/2006 3:59:16 PM
Chinese influence on Iranian designs is very overt. http://tinypic.com/6te83t.jpg> They exist only on paper too!
 
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Phaid    RE:F-4 & Standard   1/18/2006 4:07:04 PM
Could the pick on the Japanese sight be one of those, or even a variant of Standard Active, the ASM considered in case Harpoon didn't measure up? Iran claims they are Standard SM1. They did have some SM1's to go with their Allen M. Sumner class destroyer (DDG-7 Babr, a FRAM-II modified Allen M Sumner class DD). But Iran also did receive some Standard ARM missiles, so they could have carried out a conversion on those.
 
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