After America who has the second best Air Force in the World?

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DropBear RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 10:59:29 AM

You may think you are humourous, but you are not an Aussie taxpayer having to foot the bill for this crap. So keep your ignorant comments to yourself.

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french stratege gf0012 12/3/2005 3:37:32 PM

"whats good about the US (and the UK) is that they don't threaten to withold spare parts when there is a political foreign policy disagreement - unlike our experience with the Swedes and the French. " ROFLMAO US has put embargo ten time more than French starting on French! Ask Pakistanese, Taiwanese etc... But Oz until now has only bowed on US so it never happened! In french embargo on Oz is an urban legend to justify buying on US for Oz supporter of unconditional support of US.

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DropBear FS 12/3/2005 5:41:28 PM

Bowed on US??? Translation, please. And quite frankly, why would we want to buy French again? Your Miracles sucked and as for Rainbow Warrior and nuke testing in the Pacific.....

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gf0012-aust RE:gf0012 12/3/2005 5:51:29 PM

"ROFLMAO sigh, another example of ignorant arrogance from the gallery... "US has put embargo ten time more than French starting on French! Ask Pakistanese, Taiwanese etc..." where has the US embargoed Australia on parts? But Oz until now has only bowed on US so it never happened! hmmm, in 1991 the Australian PM politely told the US to go and poke it - the US reciprocated the favour in 1999 by declining formal offeres of warm and verticals - but they never cancelled or with-held parts. If so, please enmlighten the audience as you appear to think that you have evidence. Maybe I worked in the wrong area and have no idea - whereas you as an outsider seem to think you know more. I wait with fetid (as opposed to bated/baited breath) In french embargo on Oz is an urban legend to justify buying on US for Oz supporter of unconditional support of US." a run of confirmed examples would be nice - and don't trot out Vietnam or you'll be pilloried in public mericilessly - I imagine that there will be a few of us dying to point out your political ignorance of australias involvement with the US. Before you completely insert your feet in your mouth all the way down to your small intestine, I suggest that you add up all the military conflicts that australia's been involved in since Crimea or even Federation and establish how that involvement was triggered. At first cut, and to hazard a rather confident guess - you have NFI. I (and I would think a few other Skips) eagerly await the opportunity to give you a short lesson in Australian Mil and Political history.

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bunkerdestroyer RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 6:16:06 PM

well, actually we do in a sense......the us devolped the "crap" as you mention-the design, devolpment, testing, tooling, facility, training, etc....that sh-60 that you hate and probably costs 6-10million, costs us probably 1billion to to the above....us taxpayers footing the bill the entire way the pig you love....well that is a few billion in devolpement and then the lives of a few lost in vietnam so that the tatics/flaws could be worked out...free to you all in all aspects except the purchase price, which I'm sure was well below market value.... I wont go into the hornet.... another tv quote: ever see stargate sg-1...well in whatever season-6 I think, the us and russia reveal the existance of the program(travel to other planets/aliens, etc) to china, uk, and france.... well, china is pissed. During a break, the russian, trying to calm the chinese ambasador, wispers to him -'Look at it this way...the americans spend years and billions of dollars devolping the aircraft, technology, and risk their peoples lives. we just sit and wait and when its done, we get the blueprints saving time, money, and lives." So, I guess you were right about the ignorant part... (see, I am willing to concede a point or two) ps..Thanks for Naomi Watts and Nichole Kidman....

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DropBear RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 7:34:21 PM

And are you going to take full credit for F-111C AUP as well? As for... free to you all in all aspects except the purchase price, which I'm sure was well below market value.... You certainly are clueless aren't you. Do you work for DMO per chance? As for the little bit about losing lives in NAm in the F-111, well buddy, we have lost crews along the way too. As for your development of tactics, well this might comes as a shock to you, but the RAAF doesn't use the same tactics when conducting maritime strike that the USAF used when bombing land targets in Nam. I think you may be confused over issues of doctrine and ROEs. Also, good to see you think we are piggybacking off your development wrt AGM-142E Raptor integration on the F-111. No wait a minute, silly me, the USAF doesn't actually operate AGM-142 on USAF F-111 Aardvarks now do they. Tsk tsk tsk. The helo is actually the S-70-A9, not the SH-60. Bit of a difference there. Quote me where I said I hated it???

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gf0012-aust RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 8:02:52 PM

"free to you all in all aspects except the purchase price, which I'm sure was well below market value...." I'm not sure where you're getting your feeds on tis, but the F-11 has been touted as one of the all time classics of procurement raping in aircraft pprocurement since the end of WW2. We certainly didn't get a good financial deal - and it actually cost us substantially more in the long run due to interim lease issues. "I wont go into the hornet...." thats probably a wise move - the Hornet (which I do like btw) is another example of where "mates rates" were worse than what was offered to other countries. The example used in Parliament was what the Finns paid and what we paid. It's a good aicraft - but we got screwed royally on comparative price. If you're going to quote price bargains from the US to Oz - then you're on a narrow platter. It's basically restricted to Orions, early Hercs and Caribous. Every other major US sourced aviation platform has cost us more in real terms (on what is supposed to be mates rates) than some of our erstwhile NATO buddies. In fact it's been a contentious issue at some levels bearing in mind the amount of access that the US gets into CON-AUS shred facilities etc - that has only recently been turned around by the US increasing our security and tech sharing access to the same as the UK. and we've offered up various discrete weapons technologies in return - so it's not exactly a free ride. I'm quite happy to talk about factual procurement ferkups from the US to Oz all day long - and I'm pro US. btw, the F-111 mods like cold testing, dissimilar weapons fits, replacement carbon fibre panels, micro-fissure welding development, pivot load testing, portable x-ray testing, digital upgrades etc... were all australian developments shared with the US - not vice versa - and none of them were US co-funded.

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bunkerdestroyer RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 8:20:05 PM

I cant speak about the f-111 to much as its been out of inventory for at least 9 yrs-so kinda hard to use the amg-142 on it... But since you mentioned it....a little clarification: we purchased it in 1998 for the b-52H-since the f-111 was out of service. I think a handful were used in Operation allied force and then in afghanistan...we had good results..how were yours? wait...no experience. my mistake. But I would bet that the aussie gov will get all the info/tech. data as to its performance. PS, it will be the Have Lite -yours is not...so, I agree, your probably not using our tech. data on it(for the raptor), but wait....with the hornet, and possibly JSF, you will need the Have Lite in the future, esp as the pig goes out of service. Wanna bet that you guys get the after results of the joint Lockheed Martin/Rafael venture You can devolp and update all you want to on it...esp since your the only ones flying it...and it is 37/32 yrs in service...and a min 11-13 yrs old for the last batch You know Israel uses the F-4, F-16....Of course we designed, built, funded the aircraft and devolped the tatics for that particular aircraft over the yrs...now when Israel bought them, after a while, they devolped their own tatics for their specific missions/needs...AFTER we devolped the function for the aircraft. They did serious upgrades based on their wants and needs. Good for them. Devolpe all the do-hickies you want or need for your aircraft and use them in the roles your nations needs/desires. Big deal. My fundemental point still stands and is still valid.... -I'm glad aussie crews dont use the same tatics we used in nam...we dont either. Times change and so do threats and missions...However, once the initial ones were put into service in '73, I would be cha they used relatively the same training/tatics we did until they devolped their own missions statement My bad on the designation fopahhh. And my mistake. I confused the word "crap" for hate. Silly me PEACE OUT.........

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bunkerdestroyer RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 8:26:25 PM

I agree that one great fixture of buy american is cost overrun...that and flaws delayed your service entry by 5-6 yrs. But...rest assured, you did not pay what we did for them-though you did spend more than 200million.... I'm not sure, but I wonder what you paid for the ones in 92-94....I would be at a decent rate.... I dont think the F-111 is bad. I think its kick ass. I was pissed when they were phased out...Some bonehead move.....at least they did not do it with the a-10 as planned. as far as your last paragarph...I wont repeat what I said to DB...but still, put a spoiler on it if you want. Your country, your defense ministry....your choice....its really not a point...

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bunkerdestroyer RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 8:33:15 PM

BTW....incase you or DB are still seeing red (or red white and blue), Aus. is a great place...esp since your crime rate is expotentially, monumentally lower than ours. Bet you have 1/20th the polution...(even if you have 1/10th the pop)....Great country, beautiful place..... and though I made refrences to the 'litterbox'...I like the desert...my last few yrs in were in 29 palms cal. the armpit of california...still, I LOVED IT... PEACE OUT.....

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gf0012-aust RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 9:40:25 PM

"BTW....incase you or DB are still seeing red" matey I wasn;t seeing red - a complete absence of malice in my responses. all I was doing was adding some local perspective on some of our purchasing SNAFU's. This stuff is invariably glossed over at official levels as it's regarded as unseemly behaviour to let stuff ups in procurement damage the overall relationship. but, the most pro-US govt we've ever had in place has put the hammer on purchasing second hand US kit - which is why a few of us were shocked about buying the Abrams was announced.

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bunkerdestroyer RE:hand me downs 12/3/2005 11:21:59 PM

I'm not up to speed on the abrams 'deal?' can you enlighten me? If australia is to buy the m-1, why, when it cost 5-7m per-a price which I think is 2x to high.... Correct me if I am wrong, but dont you guys have the leopard 1 series? If so, 1)why not the leopard 2 series-you have a history with the leo and I would think it is cheaper 2)why do you need a new tank? what enemies except some pissed off aborigines do you have?

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DropBear RE:hand me downs 12/5/2005 12:55:49 AM

2)why do you need a new tank? what enemies except some pissed off aborigines do you have? A tad racist aren't we?

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The Lizard King RE:After America who has the second best Air Force in the World? 12/5/2005 2:14:08 PM

Does the US Navy have the second best Air Force in the World?

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Heorot RE:Hey Drop 12/5/2005 3:25:13 PM

"A tad racist aren't we?" I wouldn't call that remark racist. Accurate perhaps, but not racist.

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