After America who has the second best Air Force in the World?

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DropBear RE:hand me downs 12/4/2002 7:18:14 AM

2)why do you need a new tank? what enemies except some pissed off aborigines do you have? A tad racist aren't we?

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DropBear RE:After America who has the second best Air Force in the World? 7/12/2005 8:44:07 AM

By best do you mean biggest and most powerful? Perhaps you mean in quality of training/maintenance etc?

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The Lizard King RE:After America who has the second best Air Force in the World?-dBear 7/12/2005 12:56:36 PM

overall

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Heorot RE:After America who has the second best Air Force in the World?-dBear 7/12/2005 1:34:42 PM

Training; British. Training + volume and quality of equipment: the Luftwaffe

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EssexBoy RE:After America who has the second best Air Force in the World? 7/12/2005 2:06:28 PM

LK This wouldn't be a cunning plan to lure FS in for more abuse? I wonder if he'll be able to resist. :-)

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Herc the Merc RE:After America who has the second best Air Force in the World? 7/12/2005 2:13:01 PM

Israel then France then India then China then Russia then UK then Australia Israel for obvious reasons. France for its platforms & traing, barring the stealth class FRance kiks-as*. India(if you include the Sukhois & Mirage's on the way) because of FRench & Russian & British gear & training is top notch too. Why not: British- not much in platforms except imports. LImited experience & cross training compared to the FRench or the Indians. China- Electronics & Tech is low, plus quality could be low, cross training with Russians only.

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crashnburn RE:After America who has the second best Air Force in the World? 7/12/2005 3:54:46 PM

I see abuse coming for FS as well, but here are mine. 1.Isreal ( top US equipment, with exception of stealth, incredible training) 2.UK (though air frames are dated, tech is great, as well as training) 3.Russia(even with their problems, good airframes) 4.France(yes, I listed them) 5.Australia (good training, and doctrine) 6.Germans ( we all know why..) 7.India,China, etc............. I am rating this as overall, top to bottom

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Herc the Merc To Crashnburn- nice handle for this thread-Glad you ain't the squardon leader hehe 7/12/2005 4:10:30 PM

(1) Israel - I agree (2) UK- ?? I really don't see anything here unless they had NATO AWACS & F-a6's. I mean even in Iraq 1 they had air casualties(I think..). FRance is easily # 2 and if you remove Stealth & Volume FRance can takeout USA too. THose Mirage's are frankly exceptional. (3) Russia -??? If Russia is 3 then India & China are #2. I hope you see the rationale over here. India clearly has more pilot training then both plus French & Israeli avionics & missiles & French & British jets. China has more training than Russia, but little experience. so my list 1-USA 2-Israel 3-France 4-India 5-CHina/Russia 6-UK 7-Australia

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french stratege RE:After America who has the second best Air Force in the World? 7/12/2005 8:22:05 PM

The benchmark should be to imagine a fight between each air force to rank them. I use link which give fair accurate numbers. If you count exactly numbers available Israel has A GRANT total of 450 aircraft vs 554 for France including 60 of navy (but they don't count some jaguar and mirage F1 with BVR, and superetendard under cocoon while Israel numbers include all planes delivered - and France has almost 300 planes under cocoon at Chateaudun reserve air base) We have 7 E3/E2 vs 4 E2 and a Israeli radar plane. On quality, France pilots has more opportunity to train in various space (especially at ultra low altitude) and dissimilar training.And they are pretty good also.French pilots train often at 10 meter altitude high speed flight. I don't think Israelis have these opportunities (lack of territory and tactics used). Moreover 177 French planes have terrain following radar while Israel have none except F16I in delivery (but France is receiving similar numbers of Rafale) They train less in annual hours than French and have less simulators and mission preparation tools and C4ISR. We produce our planes and can scale up quickly while Israel has to rely on US plane delivery.We can produce up to 60 planes per month using our two fighters existing production lines opened today (but it would take almost a year to deliver the plane at this rate). We train roughly 1100 fighter pilots a year and so have a much stronger reserve of pilots (we have more than 2 pilots per plane). Israel have received an extremely low number of AMRAAM (154 between 1994 and 2004) because I think US limit number of ammunitions to prevent Israel to be tempted to do ALONE major OFFENSIVE operations without US consent. On contrary France is receiving 180 mica EW/per year! We have also more cruise missiles. www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/REG_IMP_ISR_94-04.pdf If we fight together each other with current equipment, I think that France could maybe prevail dues to Isreal ammunition shortage unless US side Israel by supplying quickly reserves like in 1973. But we can scale up and we have more pilots than Israel and this is the weak point as Israel could not take France in a short time. Russia has a huge inventory with some good indigeneous equipment but training is quite insufficient in average (while some units could be well trained). UK has no air superiority/BVR fighters today (except 63 Tornado F3 only). People here forgot Japan with good training and top equipment in fighters and numerous AWACs(16 !!!!!). By power bands (i think it is more fair): 1: USA 2: France/Israel/Russia (?) 3: Japan 4: germany/China 5: India/UK/Sweden/Taiwan/Greece 6: ROK/Australia/Nederland/Spain/Turkey/Canada/Egypt/Saudi The rank of UK is due to lack of true air superiority fighters.If UK can not protect its fighters they are ducks .This will change with EF.It was a UK choice. China has no potent AWAC, lack of ECM and modern fighters.Numbers are not enough. Germany lack of modern fighters but have 175 F4F with F18 radar and potent BVR plus a squadron of EF and a lot of Tornado (including navy). Saudi quality of manpower is inferior to Oz but they have numbers and modern weapons so I include them in the same band.

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DropBear After America???? Don't you mean who is America second the World to? 7/12/2005 8:26:17 PM

Gee I love these little lists. Top ten and all that. Soooooo subjective ;) But hey, I'll play: Best training - Australia (read article that follows). Best WVR - Australia (read article). Most advanced aircraft - Australia (Our AP-3C Orions are more advanced than America's. Our AUP F-111C is more advanced than the old USAF versions. Our Hug Bugs are more advanced than USN/USMC F-18C. Our Hawk127 is more advanced than anu other global Hawk user/derivative. etc etc etc.) Best able to punch above our weight - Australia (Approx 4 Hercs in post-GW2 hauling more than combined force of USAG/ANG C-130 units. Vietnam: A handful of obsolete Canberra bombers performed 5% of the 35th TFW missions but scored 16% successful BDA. etc etc etc.) Best sortie rates and maintenance standards ? Australia ( 1996 Red Flag, oldest aircraft in attendance was RAAF F-111?s. Only air force to have 100% operational rate, Australia! 19th October 1970 an F-4E crashed in Oz. The USAF said as it was category 5 it should be written off never to fly again. RAAF Amberley 3AD (Aircraft Depot) airmen spent 18,750 man hours and rebuilt it to operational flying standards!!! After this it went back to the USA and became an F-4G Weasel.) Seriously boys, if the question posed was ?Which air force is the most powerful, I?d agree it is the USAF, but on quality and training, persistence, tenacity, skill (both ground and air) you can?t beat the second oldest Air Force on the planet?Australia?s RAAF. Article as follows: Aviation Week & Space Technology: September 3, 2001 Australian Training Yields Top-Notch Fighter Pilots WILLIAM B. SCOTT/RAAF BASE WILLIAMTOWN, AUSTRALIA High standards, intense training and a steady diet of practice are the secrets to RAAF fighter pilots' success in the air The Royal Australian Air Force has developed a high-standard training regimen that ensures its F/A-18 pilots consistently fare very well during simulated air combat engagements against their allied counterparts. As a result, the RAAF's reputation for fielding excellent fighter pilots has sparked a recurring question among humbled mock opponents for years: What are the Australians doing differently? Testimony from U.S., U.K. and other fighter crews seems to support the RAAF's reputation. A U.S. Navy officer who flew F-14s in several multinational exercises throughout the Pacific said, "It was easy to find the Aussies--look behind you. Those guys were always on your tail." In a report submitted to Pacific Air Force headquarters, a U.S. Air Force pilot who recently returned from a 2.5-year exchange tour as an instructor at the RAAF's Fighter School gave high marks to the Australian training program. Later, in a pithy e-mail message--which, to his chagrin, was immediately circulated around the globe--he gave flying buddies a glowing account of his experience down under. "The RAAF has avoided the political-correctness wave . . . and has retained a culture that emphasizes war-fighting over politics. It was interesting to watch the [RAAF] absolutely pummel visiting U.S. fighter squadrons . . . . These bumpkins from down under treat us the way the North Vietnamese Air Force treated us 35 years ago--they are kicking our platinum [tails] with 20-mm. gunshots from 2,000 ft. back, like the Red Baron," he wrote. Australia transforms newly winged airmen into dual-role F/A-18 pilots at its Fighter School, which is located on RAAF Base Williamtown near the continent's eastern coast. Since 1985, when the RAAF started flying its 75 Hornets, F/A-18 training has been handled by No. 2 Operational Conversion Unit, commonly known as 2OCU Sqdn. Sixteen years later, the small air force still has an inventory of 71 A- and B-model Hornets. A three-phase upgrade program and a separate structural refurbishment effort is modernizing the fleet and extending its operational life to about 2012-16, senior officers here said (see p. 96). After the upgrade, RAAF aircraft will be roughly equivalent to a U.S. Navy F/A-18C. The 2OCU training squadron runs several courses, but its primary role is to graduate a "D-Category" fighter pilot proficient in both air-to-air and air-to-surface tactics. About 70 hr. of flight time during the 23-week F/A-18 conversion course will produce a pilot having basic fighter skills, including formation, instrument and night flying. Typically, 37 sorties are dedicated to air-to-air training, another 22 are air-to-surface--including maritime attack--and the final four or five are live-fire missions with high-explosives. The latter require deploying to a range near Townsville, a fighter base about 850 mi. north of Williamtown. Throughout the course, students also "fly" eight air-to-air and 12 air-to-surface missions in a ground simulator. The squadron's 14 instructors (including USAF and Canadian Air Force exchange pilots) train two classes of 6-10 students each year. Of the unit's 18 Hornets, 10-12 are two-seat F/A-18B versions. Some of those "duals are shared with operational squadrons at times," said Sqdn. Ldr. Alan Clements, an instructor and the 2OCU executive officer. During peak flying periods, the unit can generate 25-30 F/A-18 sorties per day, but a normal daily schedule will produce 15-20 flights. About 3,000 hr. are flown each year. "By comparison, an operational unit will fly 2,500-3,000 hr. a year," Clements said. "We fly more hours than an operational squadron, [because] we graduate dual-role pilots qualified in both air-to-air and air-to-surface." However, those flight hours are hard on 2OCU's aircraft, particularly the two-seaters. "When you only have about eight dual-seat aircraft on the flightline at once, they're pretty precious commodities," said Wing Cdr. William Henman, a former 2OCU commanding officer now attending the USAF Air War College. "They spend a lot of time at high angles-of-attack and pulling gs, so our [B-models] are getting tired. Our per-flight-hour stress accrual is quite high; some of the duals are fleet-leaders in fatigue." This editor spent three days at 2OCU, talking to students, commanders and instructors, flying on a 2-versus-1 air combat maneuvering (ACM) training mission, and looking for a "magic something" that might explain why RAAF pilots consistently either beat or at least humble their air-to-air opponents. Surprisingly, I found 2OCU instructors reluctant to claim they might be superior combat pilots. Humility is hardly a trait associated with a fighter jock, who typically firmly believes he is the best pilot on Earth--a conviction that's essential for survival. No pilot here denied the RAAF's hard-won reputation, though, and acknowledgments were carefully phrased. "I think we have a cost-effective training program that produces a qualified combat fighter and strike pilot in a relatively short time," said Air Commo. Paul F. Devine, commander of RAAF's Tactical Fighter Group. "And I think we do pretty well against world[-class] standards--as good as anybody else, and better than some. The RAAF holds to high standards--in selection and training--to ensure a high-quality pilot product." "We've done fairly well during multinational exercises," Henman echoed. "When we've fought our Hornets against U.S. Air Force units, we've compared very favorably. But we get a lot of practice here, and I believe we get more opportunities than U.S. operators of the Hornet. The Navy and Marine Corps, just due to their operations tempo and deployments, don't have the luxury of spending [considerable] time on the core skills like we do. And I can't overemphasize that we benefit greatly from our exchange programs with the U.S. Navy and Air Force. We take a lot of lessons they learn during foreign deployments and [actual] operations, then modify our tactics." ONE NOTEWORTHY TRAINING DIFFERENTIATOR I observed is the degree of regimentation and flexibility. U.S. pilots normally are restricted from "pushing the envelope"--mainly for safety reasons and to ensure consistency of training throughout a large force--but I detected a difference in attitude and freedom to explore new concepts, as well. "I think we do have a different ethos in training at the squadron level, and that makes us effective in the air-to-air [arena]," said Sqdn. Ldr. Phil Eldridge, a 2OCU instructor who also heads the Fighter Combat Instructor course--which is the RAAF equivalent of the U.S. Navy's "Top Gun" and USAF's Weapon School (see p. 94). "We don't highly regiment our 'bandit' (aggressor) presentations. That's a big difference from other air forces, I think. "We often allow very wild, aggressive maneuvering of our 'bandits' during air-to-air flows. I don't think that's very representative of what we'll see if we go to war . . . but training to the extreme is very challenging," Eldridge explained. "We take the gloves off and tell guys, 'You're cleared weird.' When you're fighting someone who's 'cleared weird,' you know that every time you try to lock [an enemy] on radar, they're going to split into singles, or one's going to drop 20,000 ft. of altitude, or turn into the [Doppler radar's] 'notch,' or dispense chaff. You work real hard to get them--and that takes you out of your 'safe' area; you peak with a [higher] level of skills. Your reactions become very fast. You're quick to manipulate the radar and its employment--and that's one of our strong points, I think. This forces you to think faster, while reinforcing a lot of basic skills." He and other pilots here attributed the RAAF's air combat success to aggressive training, a focus on countering complex enemy maneuvers or "presentations," and a concentration on short-range radar tactics. Another subtle but important factor is the RAAF's emphasis on air combat skill-building rather than procedure-following. Squadrons make sure pilots develop good situational awareness, targeting techniques and defensive skills, rather than rote by-the-numbers maneuvers, Eldridge noted. SOME MAY DISPUTE THE RAAF'S EMPHASIS on close-in fighter tactics, noting that modern air combat tactics have moved toward beyond-visual-range (BVR) engagements and away from "dogfighting." However, most nations' rules of engagement (ROE) dictate a potential enemy aircraft must be visually identified before firing a long-range missile. "You really don't want to be in a visual arena anymore," Henman agreed. "The focus should be on weapons systems and rules of engagement that allow you to employ those weapons BVR. Why have a long-range Amraam if you're forced to get in close enough to see the other guy's tail flash? But, until we have different ROEs, or enough systems to get a positive ID at BVR, we're going to have to get into that visual arena. Then, all the skills we teach are required to come out of the battle alive." He noted that, historically, every time a new missile seeker has been developed, an effective countermeasure to it is close behind, negating some advantage of BVR systems. In contrast, that limitation disappears in a close-in fight where a short-range gun or cannon is effective. "You can't jam a bullet," one pilot said. "In the end, if you can pull your airplane to a [position of] leading the other guy, and he gets big in your windscreen, you're going to scare him. If you build a fighter that has no gun or no [short-range] missile capability, I think you're a bit foolish," Henman declared. Consequently, much of the 2OCU training program is dedicated to developing skills necessary for visual engagements. Another effective RAAF pilot-building technique is "block training," where a squadron will fly exclusively air-to-air or air-to-surface missions for up to four weeks. "If everybody in the squadron is flying four-ship [air engagements] every day--talking, briefing, flying and debriefing nothing but four-ships--it gets us to a higher skill level," Eldridge said. "It's particularly effective for junior pilots; they can focus on just one set of procedures associated with air-to-air. Then we might go to a four-week block of air-to-surface training. [Next,] we'll probably fly an exercise that combines air-to-air and air-to-surface." Henman, Clements and Eldridge were quick to also point out the RAAF's shortcomings in preparing for modern coalition warfare. "The one thing we really lack is exposure to large-force [air combat] packages and integrating with specialized force-multipliers, such as AWACS and electronic warfare platforms," Clements said. "We don't get to see a lot of these. And, as a relatively small defense-oriented force, we're not able to provide those on our own." In recent years, though, RAAF units have deployed overseas and taken part in a Cope Thunder exercise in Alaska and Canada's Maple Flag, providing valuable exposure to large-force operations. It appeared to me that the RAAF's air combat training program is closely aligned with those of the U.S., U.K. and other Western air forces, but is distinguished by subtle, perhaps important differentiators. The Australians are uncompromising in setting high training standards, and are adamant about flying a lot of hours to hone and sustain perishable skills. Those standards have come under scrutiny recently, since the RAAF is having a tough time recruiting and retaining enough pilots in its three operational F/A-18 squadrons. A relatively small national population, an airline hiring spree, and competing career opportunities during the last five years have led to a shortage of line pilots and 2OCU instructors. "WE'RE UNDER PRESSURE AT 2OCU TO GET MORE people through the [conversion] program," Henman said. "If we take in nine students and consistently only graduate five, we have to question whether we're being too elitist. 2OCU has always been absolutely uncompromising about our graduation requirements, and that gives us a high-quality pilot. If we backed off our training standards, and don't put people through the difficult [regimen] we do now, we will graduate more pilots. I assure you, though, if the squadrons start losing airplanes, it will be traced back to training, and we'll be right back to our [stringent] requirements." Ultimately, the winner of an air-to-air engagement comes down to small advantages in technique, skill and speed of thought--all elements honed through practice. Therein may lie the biggest differentiator, some pilots here believe. The RAAF dual-role fighter pilot trains for fewer types of missions than USAF, for example, becomes proficient with a smaller array of air-to-ground weapons, and--thanks to being a smaller force--can train with a keener focus. "The RAAF flies more air-to-air sorties in a given time than U.S. crews do--not like our air force, which has to deploy a lot and fly around over Bosnia or Iraq, losing its edge," said Maj. Dan Spires, a USAF exchange officer serving as an instructor at 2OCU. "Here, they train to be flexible and to fit into coalition forces [by] adopting others' warfighting tactics and procedures." That winning-edge "magic" factor remains somewhat of a mystery, even to RAAF pilots. "The consensus of U.S. Navy, USAF and Marine Corps exchange pilots is that the Cat-D pilot 2OCU graduates tends to be at a higher proficiency level than U.S. conversion graduates in a particular fighter type," Clements said. "That may be due to good screening or intense training or something else. We're not real sure what makes our graduates slightly more proficient." Need I say more?

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DropBear Might I add... 7/12/2005 8:32:57 PM

In Southern frontier, Aces North, Pitch Black etc etc etc we have bitch slapped USAF F-16's and French Mirage 2000 etc etc etc. Amusing that USA, UK, France, Israel etc are always at the top of these naff rankings when (apart from Israel) the RAAF has soundly beaten all who come in wargames. Not to mention waxing Malaysian Mig-29's, Thai F-5E's etc etc etc blah blah blah... Some of you supposedly "top of the list" Air Forces need to do some homework in this case. Cheers DB.

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EW3 RE:After America???? Don't you mean who is America second the World to? 7/12/2005 8:35:58 PM

OK, we surrender. Now give us our prisoner rations of beer, prawns and babes!

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french stratege RE:After America???? Don't you mean who is America second the World to? 7/12/2005 8:36:17 PM

I agree Oz pilots are top.But the French claim similar differentiators. I know you will speak about the coming of French M2000 who found F111 difficult to intercept (while they are used to slaughter massive numbers of Tornadoes in Europe in training).But M2000-5 vs F18?

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french stratege Oz 7/12/2005 8:41:02 PM

I put Oz in the same band (7) than nederland while Nerderland has 136 F16 with Amraam and good NATO training.So I put a bias of quality in Oz favor.

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DarthAmerica RE:After America???? Don't you mean who is America second the World to? 7/12/2005 8:43:25 PM

I'm going to step in and defend the UK. I dont want to make a list because all airforces designed with different threat matrix and likely missions. Clearly no airforce is anywhere near as powerful as the USAF or the Russian Airforce. But folks the UK has got to be one of the most combat experienced airforces in the world. In terms of modern war they may even eclipse the Israelis whos most experienced pilots are likey Generals by now and dont do as much flying. Not to say their juniors arent good. But the RAF has essentially been at various states of war since 1991. Right along side the USAF. I cant stress enough that actual experience matters most of all. P.S. FS I am pleased to see Egypt made your list...;)

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