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Subject: How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.
Shooter    5/26/2005 5:12:16 PM
Given 20-20 hind sight, It is easy to see where R.M. went wrong with the Spitfire! The following list of items is my idea of how they should have done it, IF THEY HAD READ ANY OF THE COMMON TEXTS instead of designing a newer SPAD for the last war! 1. Start with the late Seafire or even better the Martin Baker MB-5! they have contra props and wide track gear. The MB-5 also has a much higher LOS out of the pit forward. This is also one of the Spits larger problems. 2. Change the shape/planform of the wing and eppinage from eliptical to trapiziodal. The eliptical surfaces caused the construction time and cost of the Spitfire to be more than double that of the Mustang and almost as much as the P-38. 3. Reduce the wing cord and thus area by 35-40%! This reduction in surface aria will increase the cruising speed substantialy! This is probably the single biggest defect in the design. The change in aspect ratio will also help fuel ecconomy! 4. To compensate for the increased landing and take off speeds install triple slotted fowler flaps with a long hinge extension. This gives a huge increase in wing area and changes the camber for supirior "DOG FIGHT" ability, should you ever need it! ( because the pilot really screwed up!) At full extension and deflection, they would reduce the landing speed by 11~13MPH? (Slip Stick calcs!) 5. Remove the wing mounted radiators and install a body duct like the P-51 or MB-5! This one change would add ~35MPH to the plane? 6. use the single stage griphon engine and install a "Turbo-charger" like the P-38 and Most American Bombers had. This would increase power and save weight, both significant contributers to performance. 7. Remove the guns from the wings! This would lower the polar moment of rotation and give the plane snappier rates of roll! It also makes room for "wet wings" with much more fuel. A chronic Spit problem. It also fixes the Spit's gunnery problem of designed in dispersion! 8. Install the Gun(s) in the nose! Either fireing threw the prop boss/hub or on either side 180 degrees either side of the prop CL. This fixes the afore mentioned dispersion problem. One bigger gun between the cilinder banks or upto four 20MMs beside the engine or both, depending on what your mission needs were! 9. Make a new gun based on the American 28MM or 1.1" Naval AA ammo! This shell was particuarly destructive, had a very high MV and BC and was all ready in service. A re-engineered copy of the existing gun to reduce weight and increase RoF is a faily simple task. Pay the Americans for it if British spring technology is not up to the task! it also frees up much needed production capasity for other things. 10. Design a new drawn steel "Mine" shell for the above gun! Spend the money to load it with RDX instead of the TNT used for the first 4/5s of the war. 11. Pay North American or Lockheed to design it for you, since the Supermarine staff was to tied up fixing the origional spitfire design to get it done any time soon. Did I miss anything?
 
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larryjcr    RE:Lazza's RAF Hawk vs the Spit.    11/18/2005 4:02:13 AM
To OBNW. The Spitfire was eventually given a retractable tailwheel in the MkVIII. The original Spitfire prototype had a skid. Zero was introduced to combat in China early in '40. Channault sent reports about them to the USAAC which ignored them. Best operating height of the first model was about 19K. Equal to a Spitfire MkI. By the time AVG saw action most of the IJN fighters were busy elsewhere. Ki44 first saw action in China in Nov. '41. The Ki43 entered service in summer of '41. Best operating height was again about 19K (that for '109E was 12.5K) and rate of climb at least equal to a '109E, although considerably slower top speed. Hardly low altitude a/c.
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:Lazza's RAF Hawk vs the Spit.    11/18/2005 4:47:09 AM
point i was making was 1 the p40 in the avg didnt meet the zero in combat. the ki43 although had the altitude it didnt perform well at altitude(the p40 was the same whilst it could get to altitude it was out performed) just because an aircraft can get its best speed at a certain height doesnt mean that it works well at that height. the spit mk 1 all had tail wheels it was the prottype that had a skid as the mk was to work from metalised runways a skid was not an option. the late spits did recieve the retracting tail wheel as when speeds exceeded 400mph the difference started to become noticable, the first spit to get the tail wheel was the mk3 but it was never carried though to the production mk5s the oil cooler and radiator in the spit were of a very effiecent design and allowed the cooling for the minimum of drag, they were actaully an american design that was superior to anything we had.
 
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larryjcr    RE:Lazza's RAF Hawk vs the Spit.    11/18/2005 6:15:24 PM
Problem in '41 and '42 in the Pacific was that combat was at higher altitudes than expected by the pre-war AAC planning, (not lower) and the Japanese pilots were the best trained in the world at the time. In China, Channault had developed tactics to deal with the situation, and they worked. USAAF in SWPAC didn't do nearly as well and was on the defensive until arrival of P38s in Nov. '42. Nothing wrong with the P40s except lack of a good blower, and pilots not experienced enough to find a counter for the situation. Around Guadelcanal, the USMC had a/c (F4F) with better high altitude performance than the Army birds, and an advantageous operational position. In North Africa, until late in '42 the situation was somewhat similar -- Hurricane was no match for a '109, and Curtiss types usually being attacked from above, but RAF had an growing numberical superiority and the German fighters were fixated on 'free hunting' in small groups. If the Brits were getting the radiators from the US they should have bought propellers while they were at it. The P36 had 3-blade metal CS props from the beginning and the Spits and Hurris barely got rid of the 2-blade, 2-position wooden props before they got into combat.
 
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Aussiegunnerreturns    RE:Lazza's RAF Hawk vs the Spit.    11/19/2005 12:23:15 AM
"Problem in '41 and '42 in the Pacific was that combat was at higher altitudes than expected by the pre-war AAC planning, (not lower)." Wars have a lousy way of not working out the way you planned. Thats why building a plane that could fight at all altitudes would have been the smart move. "Nothing wrong with the P40s except lack of a good blower...." ... and that it had about 1300lb too much weight, a problem that couldn't be solved. It was also underarmed until the 6 x .5's came onboard.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:Larry - from the horses mouth... Larry   11/19/2005 12:52:00 AM
A spit still has half a tank of gas left after a climb to 20,000 feet and a half house at most economical cruise. That is enough fuel left for 20 minutes of METO power and 30 minutes of most ecnomical. That also includes a 45 minute reserve at most economical. That is enough for a about a 110 mile radius of action with a fair bit of combat. You are also missing the point that the P-40 would most likely not have had the rear fuselage tank filled because the danger it would have caused if it wasn't completely empty before engaging the enemy. Without the rear tank filled the P-40 has no range advantage over the Hurricane or Spitfire. The P-40 was simply an inferior aeroplane compared to the Spitfire.
 
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gf0012-aust    spitfire ferry ranges   11/19/2005 1:33:00 AM
just as a side note, the early (1942) maltese spitfires had rear fuselage tanks fitted - which gave them a range of 650miles. Later maltese spits had conformal drop tanks which gave them a 1100miles range and still had a suffient reserve. They were thus able to fly the distance between London to St Petersburg. (let alone Gibralter to Malta). They had a total of 284 imperial gallons on board.
 
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larryjcr    RE:spitfire ferry ranges   11/19/2005 3:02:19 AM
True, but the conformal tanks could not be dropped in flight, were not self sealing, and even when empty reduced the a/c performance radically. The rear fuselage tank was also for ferry flights. When even partly full it put the cg so far off normal combat maneuvers weren't possible, and it wasn't self sealing, so that, even if emptied in flight was still a bomb waiting for a single tracer bullet to set it off. Two .50s and four .30s was still at least as good as eight .303s for armament. The Tomahawk was equal or superior to the Hurricane (which was good enough for the BoB) in everything except rate of climb up to 15K with the Allison, and to any height with the Merlin, which is why Luft fighter pilots who flew against both in North Africa considered the Curtiss's much better than the Hurris. RAF fighters in the BoB spent most of their time either climbing hard or running to intercept, not at cruising power. That's why barely 50% of BoB sorties actually intercepted.
 
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gf0012-aust    spitfire ferry ranges - larryjcr   11/19/2005 3:15:41 AM
"True, but the conformal tanks could not be dropped in flight, were not self sealing, and even when empty reduced the a/c performance radically." this is way outside my knowledgebase - but are you sure? I was under the impression that the final version of the tanks was able to be released in flight. They were 170 imp gallon tanks. I know that the Mk1 and Mk2 tanks could be released manually within 15mins of landing, but I was pretty sure that the final was releasable, but, as a definitive statement, this is way outside my comfort zone... ;)
 
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larryjcr    RE:Larry - from the horses mouth... Larry   11/19/2005 3:18:43 AM
The fuselage tank in a Tomahawk was self sealing, so could be used (like the one in the P51) for combat missions, as long as enough of the fuel was burned off before actual combat so that the cg was within proper limits. Combat-usable internal fuel was 148 gal. compared to the Spitfire Is 85 gal. The Tomahawk could also carry a drop tank of up to 150 gal.
 
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larryjcr    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/19/2005 12:13:21 PM
Oop. I was wrong on one point about the conformal fuel tank. It could be dropped. And it would probably have been very useful in the BoB if it had been available. It's weakness was that it wasn't pressurized and so wouldn't feed fuel at high altitude, which wouldn't have been that bad a problem in the BoB where most of the fighting was below 20K anyway. On the otherhand, bringing it up, kind of conceeds my basic argument about the importance of range, as carrying it crippled the climb capability of the Spitfire. The preceeved need for max. climb rate is the justification for not building adequate range into the Spit.
 
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