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Subject: How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.
Shooter    5/26/2005 5:12:16 PM
Given 20-20 hind sight, It is easy to see where R.M. went wrong with the Spitfire! The following list of items is my idea of how they should have done it, IF THEY HAD READ ANY OF THE COMMON TEXTS instead of designing a newer SPAD for the last war! 1. Start with the late Seafire or even better the Martin Baker MB-5! they have contra props and wide track gear. The MB-5 also has a much higher LOS out of the pit forward. This is also one of the Spits larger problems. 2. Change the shape/planform of the wing and eppinage from eliptical to trapiziodal. The eliptical surfaces caused the construction time and cost of the Spitfire to be more than double that of the Mustang and almost as much as the P-38. 3. Reduce the wing cord and thus area by 35-40%! This reduction in surface aria will increase the cruising speed substantialy! This is probably the single biggest defect in the design. The change in aspect ratio will also help fuel ecconomy! 4. To compensate for the increased landing and take off speeds install triple slotted fowler flaps with a long hinge extension. This gives a huge increase in wing area and changes the camber for supirior "DOG FIGHT" ability, should you ever need it! ( because the pilot really screwed up!) At full extension and deflection, they would reduce the landing speed by 11~13MPH? (Slip Stick calcs!) 5. Remove the wing mounted radiators and install a body duct like the P-51 or MB-5! This one change would add ~35MPH to the plane? 6. use the single stage griphon engine and install a "Turbo-charger" like the P-38 and Most American Bombers had. This would increase power and save weight, both significant contributers to performance. 7. Remove the guns from the wings! This would lower the polar moment of rotation and give the plane snappier rates of roll! It also makes room for "wet wings" with much more fuel. A chronic Spit problem. It also fixes the Spit's gunnery problem of designed in dispersion! 8. Install the Gun(s) in the nose! Either fireing threw the prop boss/hub or on either side 180 degrees either side of the prop CL. This fixes the afore mentioned dispersion problem. One bigger gun between the cilinder banks or upto four 20MMs beside the engine or both, depending on what your mission needs were! 9. Make a new gun based on the American 28MM or 1.1" Naval AA ammo! This shell was particuarly destructive, had a very high MV and BC and was all ready in service. A re-engineered copy of the existing gun to reduce weight and increase RoF is a faily simple task. Pay the Americans for it if British spring technology is not up to the task! it also frees up much needed production capasity for other things. 10. Design a new drawn steel "Mine" shell for the above gun! Spend the money to load it with RDX instead of the TNT used for the first 4/5s of the war. 11. Pay North American or Lockheed to design it for you, since the Supermarine staff was to tied up fixing the origional spitfire design to get it done any time soon. Did I miss anything?
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/2/2005 3:20:20 AM
Dont know about the pto, so will accept your statement, however in the eto the USAF used spit PR from 41 though 45, and the mossie PR (F8) replaced the P38 PR in 44
 
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larryjcr    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/2/2005 3:20:46 AM
To OBNW: According to WORLD WAR II COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE UNITED STATES AIR FORCE, there were forty (40) Photo Recon (PR) and Tactical Recon (TR) sqds, after excluding those that used only larger a/c (heavy or medium bombers, or transport types) or lighter aircraft (O and L types) operational in the USAAF in 1945. Of the forty, 25 were equiped with the F5 (PR Lightning), 8 with the F6 (PR Mustang), 6 with both the F5 and F6, and exactly one, the 14th PR Sqd. that used F5s, F6s and Spits in 1945. Could you could give me the IDs of the squadrons that were almost exclusively Mossies and Spits?
 
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oldbutnotwise    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/2/2005 4:40:07 AM
No I cant, and it does look like I was missinformed, however I do know that in 45 the usaf had over 100 PR mossies and were operating more than 30 PR spits the eto, which squadrons I dont know!
 
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Donkey    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/2/2005 9:44:43 AM
The 653rd Bomb Squadron Light flew Mossies also the 654rd BS, 25th BG, 8th AF USAF. (http://www.rafwatton.info/timeline/american/25bghist.html) Donk
 
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larryjcr    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/2/2005 10:46:05 AM
To Donky: thanx. Yes. OBNW was talking about recce a/c, which I took to mean tactical recce. The 25th BF(L) did specialized in weather recce. None of the TacRec, or PhotoRec Sqd. listed Mossies as operational equipment in '45.
 
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larryjcr    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/2/2005 10:53:27 AM
To OBNW: the 14th PR Sqd. was one of 4 sqds in the 7th Recce Group (P), which was the primary recce element of the 8th AF. Group trained on Spit Vs, but went operational in '43 with one sqd (14th) of Spit XIs and three of PR Lightnings. Don't know how many Spits they were still using operational in '45. Is also possible a number of Spits were still around as 'hacks' with various squadrons. According to the list I quoted, only 4 USAAF PR and TR squadrons ever used PR Spits as operational equipment. The other three were the 5th PR Sqd. and the 107th and 109th TacREc Sqds.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/2/2005 6:52:34 PM
Were any of the PR lightnings pressurised?
 
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larryjcr    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/3/2005 3:27:39 AM
To AussieEngineer: I don't think so. As far as I can find out they were fairly straigtforward mods of regular P38 airframes. Camera bay in the nose in place of guns, and in all but the earliest, a small camera bay in one of the tail booms. Could carry 3-5 cameras, both vertical and oblique, types could be switched in and out depending on the mission. A number of missions were flown in which an F5 flew across Germany from England to the Soviet Union, refueled, then returned doing photo targets both ways. They were somewhat lighter, hence somewhat faster than the regular fighters, but I don't have the actual numbers. If they could stay at economical cruising, they could fly well over 3000 miles, with full external fuel.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/3/2005 3:44:30 AM
Thats what I thought. That is where the Mossie and Spit would have a big advantage. From a pilots point of view I'd much prefer the pressurised aircraft.
 
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larryjcr    RE:How to fix the design defects of the Spitfire airplane of WW-II.   11/3/2005 10:51:07 AM
The Mossie would be the competion for the F5. Both a/c carried a much more impressive set of cameras than the Spit or F6. The comfort level for the Mossie would have been much better, especially for the early F5s before the installation of proper heaters, but in operation, the PR Lightnings were very successful. In the lighter a/c, the F6 it had one major advantage over the Spit. You didn't have to leave your guns at home!! The F6 installed cameras behind the pit, in what was otherwise a standard Mustang. The Spit had to give up its guns for enough fuel to be a useful PR a/c.
 
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