The Strategypage is a comprehensive summary of military news and affairs.
 News As History - November 25, 2009




New Strategy - Wargames at Discount Prices
1.Modern Air Power: War Over the Middle East
2.Commander: Napoleon at War
3.Close Combat: Watch am Rhein
4.Gallic Wars
5.Fast Action Battle: The Bulge

100+ Computer and Board games all with free shipping.
 
 
 
Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use
How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Fighters, Bombers and Recon Discussion Board
Sign In   Return to Topic Page
Subject: F-22 VS. Eurofighter
mike14    2/15/2005 2:24:35 PM
Who would win.
 
Quote    Reply

Email Me When A New Comment Is Made
Show Only Poster Name and Title     Sort in Reverse Order Posted

Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26   NEXT
HERALD1357    Reply to the troll.   12/18/2008 10:49:59 PM
It all happens at the speed of light, cretin.
 
Herald 

 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       12/18/2008 11:00:16 PM
Nope Herald . Your AWACS 's man needs to press on some buttons and switches first . Don 't take me for a fool .
 
Leroy , here is a clue :
h*tp://www.thalesraytheon.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/HA100.JPG
 
Cheers .

 
Quote    Reply

HERALD1357    You idiot.   12/18/2008 11:27:50 PM

Nope Herald . Your AWACS 's man needs to press on some buttons and switches first . Don 't take me for a fool .

 

Leroy , here is a clue :

h*tp://www.thalesraytheon.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/HA100.JPG


 

Cheers .





Trying to TELL ME how telemetry and data sharing works? Go pound sand mama's boy. Look up the definition of NODE.
 
By the way.........   moron;
 
 
The HA-100 was covered in February. I was rolling in the aisles with the lies you tried to post then.
 
One more thing......
 
h*tp://www.thalesraytheon.com/uploads/tx_templavoila/HA100.JPG.
 
See the name? Whatever was done RIGHT in that bi-static multi-NODE [SARCASM AGAIN] low altitude smear track blob detector radar was courtesy of RAYTHEON, an AMERICAN outfit..
 
Which is about as French as French fries; which best evidence shows ORIGINALLY was a Belgian dish by way of SPAIN..
 
Have a nice evening as you choke on your pommes frites.
 
Herald

 
.  
 
 
 

 
 
Quote    Reply

leroy       12/19/2008 1:32:21 AM
Keep on trolling kid... you aren't fooling anyone here.
 
We have all seen your little act before.
 
You come here claiming you want a reasonable discussion, then you make a fool of yourself by misunderstanding everything, demand everyone explain everything to you and "prove" it all... then the next day you "forget" everything people were nice enough to explain to you so that you can return to your original stupidity. 
 
You claim this isn't about France vs the USA, but that is what every single one of these threads turns into because that is exactly what you want to turn it into.
 
If the thread goes on long enough that you get backed into a corner, you just start making up wonderful new technologies and tactics for the Rafale that generally don't even make sense.
 
You are a fanboy and a liar.  I have seen you prove as much countless times.  
 
Grow up
 
 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       12/19/2008 10:47:45 AM
What the F-22 should have done was to send to the Prowler in real time :
1) the coordinate of the target (interferrometry)
2) the bandwith used by the SAM site (checked by ECM frenquency hoping from AESA antenas)
3) the type of SAM (from the databank)
 
It's not hard at all to do that verbally.  "Spike, Grumble, two-four-zero at thirty".  That tells you there is an emitter, the type of emitter (SA-10/S-300), and its coordinates (azimuth and distance).  The EA-6B crew knows what frequencies that type of SAM operates at, and link-16 wouldn't tell you things like bandwidth or frequency anyway.  The F-22 has no problem precisely identifying the locations of both the EA-6B and of the SAM site -- they both show up on its situation display and it will tell the pilot everything he needs to know in terms of relative coordinates.
 
Of course, if you were using Link-16, you would be emitting constantly.  The F-22 only emits when it needs to.  Less efficiently?  Perhaps, but it is in total EMCON the rest of the time.
 
But the F-22 talked verbally to the Prowler 's crew about a SAM site being "somewhere there" , Bravo !
Next time , use a Rafale to talk to your Prowler , you won 't be disapointed .
 
No, the F-22 can tell the Prowler exactly where the threat is and what type threat it is.  The Rafale couldn't get anywhere close to the SAM site without being detected, unlike the F-22.  So what the Rafale would say to the Prowler is more like "Sam, sam, engaged defensive!".  Not qute so useful.
 
Quote    Reply

warpig       12/19/2008 11:50:04 AM

What the F-22 should have done was to send to the Prowler in real time :



1) the coordinate of the target (interferrometry)



2) the bandwith used by the SAM site (checked by ECM frenquency hoping from AESA antenas)

3) the type of SAM (from the databank)

 

It's not hard at all to do that verbally.  "Spike, Grumble, two-four-zero at thirty".  That tells you there is an emitter, the type of emitter (SA-10/S-300), and its coordinates (azimuth and distance).  The EA-6B crew knows what frequencies that type of SAM operates at, and link-16 wouldn't tell you things like bandwidth or frequency anyway.  The F-22 has no problem precisely identifying the locations of both the EA-6B and of the SAM site -- they both show up on its situation display and it will tell the pilot everything he needs to know in terms of relative coordinates.


 

Of course, if you were using Link-16, you would be emitting constantly.  The F-22 only emits when it needs to.  Less efficiently?  Perhaps, but it is in total EMCON the rest of the time.


 

But the F-22 talked verbally to the Prowler 's crew about a SAM site being "somewhere there" , Bravo !



Next time , use a Rafale to talk to your Prowler , you won 't be disapointed .

 

No, the F-22 can tell the Prowler exactly where the threat is and what type threat it is.  The Rafale couldn't get anywhere close to the SAM site without being detected, unlike the F-22.  So what the Rafale would say to the Prowler is more like "Sam, sam, engaged defensive!".  Not qute so useful.




 
As always, your clear explanations are a delight to read, not to mention I love your wit, too.  "Not quite so useful," indeed!  Herald and Leroy, you're on target as usual.

 
 
Quote    Reply

FJV       12/19/2008 3:09:25 PM
It all depends on who will have the best electronic warfare in my opinion.
 
I have a suspicion/hunch that there are future technologies possible for electronic warfare that could turn out to be more important than stealth.
 
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       12/19/2008 6:12:01 PM

It all depends on who will have the best electronic warfare in my opinion.

I have a suspicion/hunch that there are future technologies possible for electronic warfare that could turn out to be more important than stealth.


 LO/VLO has been about electronic warfare since 1947.  Prior to 1947 LO was about mechanical developments.

There seems to be a view that LO/VLO is relatively recent - it's not it's actually been around since 1912.  ie LO/VLO is a moving and iterative concept and hence why every US publicly released generation of manned platform using VLO concepts has been conceptually different from its predecessors.  A similar pattern can actually be traced against unmanned developments. 

Its why I find comments about Rafales capacity to survive in comparison against even an 18F laughable.  The US is at a 6th generation stage of sensor integration and fusion at a deployed level - and yet France has only just got acces to Link 16 and isn't even on the guest list for the 2014 tech releases (and yet even sweden has recognised that it needs to get onto the boat as it's not going to stay relevant with autonomous tech)

There are a whole pile of other supporting network and fusion tools in the game and BW is talking about Link-16?  "Gee zuz" wept.

 

 





 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       12/19/2008 6:42:47 PM
Bash as much as you can I do not care .
 
I see that as soon as Herald spot the name Raytheon , the best part of a radar must come from them and the worse part from the poor french who cannot understand a thing . Well , that 's charming and very clever Herald , not . You really spit on everything as long as it comes from me , forgetting that you will look like a fool to the knowledgeable posters .
The HA-100 radar works as intented , you want it or not .
 
h*tp://www.twine.com/item/11cnb2mvn-48n/defense-technology-international-october-2007
 
Unlike you , I provide links and studies .
Leroy had nothing interesting to say .
 
Phaid , if it was me who said that the Rafale could go ""Spike, Grumble, two-four-zero at thirty"" , you would have jumped on me and ask me in which century I was living ! Radio is nothing new for God sake !
Then , you try to find some poor excuses about the link-16 versus verbal radio , wtf ??!
 
You said :
""The Rafale couldn't get anywhere close to the SAM site without being detected, unlike the F-22""
 
I agree , no argument here . Then you go :
""So what the Rafale would say to the Prowler is more like "Sam, sam, engaged defensive!".  Not qute so useful.""
That is false , untrue and silly to say the least . You know better and I don 't understand why you cannot tell the truth here on SP . US Ego ?
One only have to look at how the Rafales did treat the SAMs at the recent RedFlag . Or they escaped them before to be in the SAM range , or they destroyed it from a passive shot with an AASM .
Back to the F-22 .
 
FJV had it right , ""It all depends on who will have the best electronic warfare"" . There , the F-22 is today in inferiority . Some F-teens are able to brake a missile lock with their ECMs when the F-22 can 't . Some would tell me that EM missiles have little chance to lock on the F-22 , and rightly . But if the F-22 is locked by an advanced radar , the jet has absolutly no means to disapear again through ECMs . All it can probably do is to try to power jam the emiter , allowing all the ECCMs in the vinicity to target the jammer . Of course , if the technology has been implemented on the F-22 through its AESA radar , which I doubt strongly . In any case , the F-22 has no ECM suite so far , bravo again !
 
Really , I don 't fear your futur posts ...
 
Cheers .
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       12/19/2008 6:54:13 PM
gf , we 're in 2008 .
 
Cheers .

 
Quote    Reply

HERALD1357    rAYT   12/19/2008 10:42:26 PM

Bash as much as you can I do not care .

 

I see that as soon as Herald spot the name Raytheon , the best part of a radar must come from them and the worse part from the poor french who cannot understand a thing . Well , that 's charming and very clever Herald , not . You really spit on everything as long as it comes from me , forgetting that you will look like a fool to the knowledgeable posters .


The HA-100 radar works as intented , you want it or not .

 

h*tp://www.twine.com/item/11cnb2mvn-48n/defense-technology-international-october-2007


 

Unlike you , I provide links and studies .

Leroy had nothing interesting to say .


 


Phaid , if it was me who said that the Rafale could go ""Spike, Grumble, two-four-zero at thirty"" , you would have jumped on me and ask me in which century I was living ! Radio is nothing new for God sake !

Then , you try to find some poor excuses about the link-16 versus verbal radio , wtf ??!

 

You said :



""The Rafale couldn't get anywhere close to the SAM site without being detected, unlike the F-22""

 

I agree , no argument here . Then you go :


""So what the Rafale would say to the Prowler is more like "Sam, sam, engaged defensive!".  Not qute so useful.""

That is false , untrue and silly to say the least . You know better and I don 't understand why you cannot tell the truth here on SP . US Ego ?


One only have to look at how the Rafales did treat the SAMs at the recent RedFlag . Or they escaped them before to be in the SAM range , or they destroyed it from a passive shot with an AASM .

Back to the F-22 .


 

FJV had it right , ""It all depends on who will have the best electronic warfare"" . There , the F-22 is today in inferiority . Some F-teens are able to brake a missile lock with their ECMs when the F-22 can 't . Some would tell me that EM missiles have little chance to lock on the F-22 , and rightly . But if the F-22 is locked by an advanced radar , the jet has absolutly no means to disapear again through ECMs . All it can probably do is to try to power jam the emiter , allowing all the ECCMs in the vinicity to target the jammer . Of course , if the technology has been implemented on the F-22 through its AESA radar , which I doubt strongly . In any case , the F-22 has no ECM suite so far , bravo again !


 

Really , I don 't fear your futur posts ...

 

Cheers .





 

 



I gave a link, dummy. It wasn't exactly for your benefit as it was a remindert to others of exactly what an ignoranht LIAR you are. 
 
I do mention Raytheon A LOT. One of these days you might catch on.

The HA-100 works exactly as described in plain English. LockMart was parading around a system called Silent Sentry that suffered similar limitations, If you want.to know who the real experts in this type of radar are, how about making a trip to Georgia Tech, cretin? They teach all kinds of weird and wonderful things at the North Avenue Trade School,-from how to build to specified design a multiNODE _{there is that word again!] passive radar system that WORKS, to how to push a mop properly..I suggest you try the mop pushing curriculum.
 
Look "tankboy" I already took you to the woodshed about EW, the ASTER, how rockets work in general, how telemetry works, I even finally ripped you a new one when you LIED about the Leclerc armor package- a subject where you claimed to be an expert and I knew I was not, but at the end demonstrated I knew far more in FACT than you ever dreamed in your Steel Beasts fantasies. Its just plain to the old timers here that you are a google boy who sees something on the internet and you come bombing in here, like the fool you are with your latest pronouncements to showe the rest of us that you know something that will one up somebody. This is nopt rational b4havior to keep subjecting yourself to this kind of publuc humilation
 
Are you really that sick or are you just that STUPID?.
 
I mean just read the gibberish I highlighted in yellow that you wrote. Its stark ravintg lunacy mixed with your usual lies and fantasies.
 
The chief lie you write of which is that anybody would waste their time talking to you of all people about US air exercises such as REDFLAG where the AdA did not participate all that much-certainly not in the way of IAD suppression.
 
They, the French actually came to LEARN from is not to teach..
 
You would do well to emulate them. In the meantime YOU continue to be a disgrace to France, as a man (actually a boy) with no honor and of no worth.
 
 Herald
 

 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       12/20/2008 4:47:34 AM
One only have to look at how the Rafales did treat the SAMs at the recent RedFlag . Or they escaped them before to be in the SAM range , or they destroyed it from a passive shot with an AASM .
 
Even if this were true, you're still completely missing the point.
 
The F-22, even after it has expended all of its ordnance, is still a very useful asset because it can fly unchallenged into SAM envelopes.  There, it can pinpoint SAM sites and hand off targets to SEAD platforms before the SEAD platforms can detect them on their own -- and, more importantly, before the SAM can detect the SEAD platform.  Rafale simply cannot do that.
 
And, again, as far as this whole network technology nonsense you keep misunderstanding: the reason the F-22 does not implement Link-16 transmission is because Link-16 transmission requires constant emissions.  It is not stealthy.   A quick burst of voice communications, for all that you ignorantly deride it, is far harder to detect and impossible to track, compared to a network protocol operating over RF.
 
Quote    Reply

leroy       12/20/2008 4:57:52 AM
"It all depends on who will have the best electronic warfare in my opinion.
 
I have a suspicion/hunch that there are future technologies possible for electronic warfare that could turn out to be more important than stealth."
 
 
     I think you are heading down the wrong path with this reasoning.  There is no question of which is better, "stealth" or "electronic warfare."  The correct answer is "both."
 
    The only people you see trying to argue that one or the other is preferable are fanboys who's favorite airplane isn't stealthy.  The fact is that all operational US stealth aircraft have world class electronic warfare capabilities.  It is simply not an either/or decision, and in most cases the approaches compliment each other.  An aircraft that generates a tiny radar return is simply much easier to protect via electronic warfare than one with a large return.
 
"There , the F-22 is today in inferiority . Some F-teens are able to brake a missile lock with their ECMs when the F-22 can 't . Some would tell me that EM missiles have little chance to lock on the F-22 , and rightly . But if the F-22 is locked by an advanced radar , the jet has absolutly no means to disapear again through ECMs . All it can probably do is to try to power jam the emiter , allowing all the ECCMs in the vinicity to target the jammer . Of course , if the technology has been implemented on the F-22 through its AESA radar , which I doubt strongly . In any case , the F-22 has no ECM suite so far , bravo again !"
 
     The post above is a perfect example of the fanboy mentality I mentioned above.  First off, so there is no confusion, bluewings is either an idiot, or pretending to be an idiot in order to troll.  (Does it really matter which?)  He doesn't understand what he is talking about and doesn't really want to.
 
     Because his favorite airplane is not stealthy, he will continually insist that it MUST have the world's greatest electronic warfare system.  That way, any time someone says something he doesn't like about it on a message board somewhere, he can just make up a capability and attribute it to his airplane's magic "Spectra" system.  
 
      Going back to the stealth/electronic warfare question... Don't think for a moment that the F-22 is lacking in electronic warfare capabilities because it is stealthy.  It would make a better video game if the F-22 had some obvious weakness that could be exploited, but that is simply not the case.
 
      The F-22 has a world class electronic warfare system that is absolutely second to none.  The details of the F-22's capabilities in these areas are very rarely discussed because of classification issues.  The F-22 is a US-only product that is not offered for export at any price.  Because of this, the US does not feel the need to publicize its capabilities in sensitive areas.  It is better to let the opposition wonder.  It is public information that its primary philosophy does not call for active jamming because such an approach is simply not necessary.  Nonetheless, it has the ability to employ active countermeasures if necessary and that capability will continue to grow with technology or if a plausible threat emerges. 
 
 
"NASHUA, N.H., 15 June 2006. BAE Systems has delivered the first production digital electronic warfare (EW) system to Lockheed Martin for use in the U.S. Air Force's Raptor #4084. The airframe, well into production, is slated for delivery to the Air Force in November 2006.
"Raptor pilots will be flying the world's premier fifth-generation fighter equipped with the best digital electronic warfare system available in any fighter in the world," says Bridget Lauderdale, Lockheed Martin vice president for F-22 product development. "BAE Systems' digital EW program is a model product improvement program that provides state-of-the art technology to the F-22.""
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       12/20/2008 10:06:22 PM
As usual when Herald is against the wall , he goes 'bla-bla" . That facilitates my task .
Make no mistake people , Herald never won an argument with me on Tanks .
 
My answer to him will be short : bla-bla .
 
Fortunatly for the discussion , Phaid is making sense .
""The F-22, even after it has expended all of its ordnance, is still a very useful asset because it can fly unchallenged into SAM envelopes."""
This is what the USAF says ~and no-one else~ and without any proofs , allow me to dare to doubt . The B2 has been spotted on radar over UK and over Europe and don 't tell me that is because it was emitting but because some radars can detect LO aircrafts .
 
""There, it can pinpoint SAM sites and hand off targets to SEAD platforms""
What with ? (pinpointing and handing off ?)
 
""before the SEAD platforms can detect them on their own""
 
Again , with what ? It 's radar ?
 
""Rafale simply cannot do that.""
 
Yes it can , since you know the Rafale well by following Airdefence.net , I wander why to say such thing ?
To put it simply , Rafale 's ECM suite and sensors can detect the adverse EW emissions before to be in range (that 's not new) . It can actually do that much better than the F-22 and I already said why . Rafale also transmit and shares datas quicker . Why do you have to call me on Rafale and compare it to the F-22 ? This is not the right thread .
 
""the reason the F-22 does not implement Link-16 transmission is because Link-16 transmission requires constant emissions.  It is not stealthy.""
 
There , you make more sense . Nevertheles , it 's better to use the link-16 than nothing when you want to share datas with link-16 equipped legacy fighters , at least for now . In fact , it 's an excuse Phaid .
The F-22 is just ~as I said earlier~ un unfinished aircraft .
Let 's be honest here , just for a minute : the USA don 't need the F-22 as it is now . The USA have some much better aircrafts to bring to the enemy than the F-22 , a Viper Blk 60 or a SH Blk2 will do more dammage to the enemy by a long way .
The F-22 is the USA life insurance in the air supremacy for the next 15 years but for now , it is an unfinished aircraft to say the least .
 
""A quick burst of voice communications, for all that you ignorantly deride it, is far harder to detect and impossible to track, compared to a network protocol operating over RF.""
 
I agree but to this day , the Link-16 has been pretty safe to use . 2moro might be different ...
Phaid , beside its ability to fire first and to police the sky , the F-22 right now is only a very expensive tool .
On the other side , 24 F-22s with inflight refuelling  + externals tanks (dropped prior enemy airspace) could archive air dominance in a busy sky rather quickly . I know ;-)
Unless they fly where they shouldn 't (Russia , West Europe , China) .
 
I am pleased to see Leroy saying to FJV :
""I think you are heading down the wrong path with this reasoning.  There is no question of which is better, "stealth" or "electronic warfare."  The correct answer is "both.""
 
Exactly and this is why I said that the F-22 is lacking because it hasn 't got both .
 
""An aircraft that generates a tiny radar return is simply much easier to protect via electronic warfare than one with a large return.""
 
Hurray !!! AT LAST !
Leroy , I thank you . At last you unconciently acknowledge Dassault/Thales thinking when they built the Rafale and SPECTRA . Now , re-read what I said all theses years with your newly open mind !
Unfortunatly , the rest of your post is just rubbish but luckily you end up with a something interesting . I would like to know more about that so-called "best digital electronic warfare system available in any fighter in the world" thing . Is that US propaganda again or do we have something more "meaty" to chew on (link , Pdf , etc ?)
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Bluewings12       12/20/2008 10:53:05 PM
Leroy :
""The post above is a perfect example of the fanboy mentality I mentioned above.  First off, so there is no confusion, bluewings is either an idiot, or pretending to be an idiot in order to troll.  (Does it really matter which?)  He doesn't understand what he is talking about and doesn't really want to.""
 
Poor talk , really . You don 't answer to a troll , you ignore it . That 's what we all do . But when I 'm here , I get threads going to hundreds of posts so why that ? Because my posts are :
1) understandable enough
2) hot
3) well founded
4) controversials
And with modesty , I have to say that it works and what you call "american bashing" sometimes is , but only because you spit on some french stuff ;-) Am I honest enough :-)
 
""Because his favorite airplane is not stealthy, he will continually insist that it MUST have the world's greatest electronic warfare system.""
 
No , no ! Rafale has the best ECM suite Worldwide and that 's a fact . I don 't have to insist .
 
""The F-22 has a world class electronic warfare system that is absolutely second to none.""
 
Do you mean right now ??? Until you back up your claims , I don 't believe you .
 
""The F-22 is a US-only product that is not offered for export at any price.  Because of this, the US does not feel the need to publicize its capabilities in sensitive areas.  It is better to let the opposition wonder.""
 
(lololol !) Are you trying to prove your case with that ??? You ' re clearly mistaking .
 
""It is public information that its primary philosophy does not call for active jamming because such an approach is simply not necessary""
 
Wow ??! Wtf ??? If the people behind the jet are really thinking like that , they are not Americans !!! It cannot be !
The only other solution is the following : Leroy is talking out of his a$$ again . Why do you think the AESA radar jamming modes are working out if it is not for active jamming ??? You 're stupid Leroy ...
 
I stop here , I 'll better do ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


 
Quote    Reply
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26   NEXT



StrategyWorld.com© 1998 - 2009StrategyWorld.com. All rights Reserved. StrategyWorld.com, StrategyPage.com, FYEO, For Your Eyes Only and Al Nofi's CIC are all trademarks of StrategyWorld.com Privacy Policy