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Subject: F-22 VS. Eurofighter
mike14    2/15/2005 2:24:35 PM
Who would win.
 
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DarthAmerica       12/14/2008 2:34:53 PM

As this topic seems to have raised its head again, there is a lot more information out there, with the General consensus, that the F-22 will have what can only be described as a 'healthy' advantage over the Typhoon, however, a number of reports state that WVR that there is little between the two aircraft, with the Typhoon having a slight edge (but you have to get to WVR first!!).

 

In BVR, whilst the F-22 dominates by a large margin, some of the more interesting comments coming out are that the Typhoon can obviously detect it has been 'painted' (though in the tests I understand PIRATE was not used), and also that in BVR there seemed to be "certain angles both in azimuth and elevation, in which the raptor could be spoted" (though no ranges etc were given). 


Oh gawd here we go again...
 
-DA
 
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ArtyEngineer       12/15/2008 1:10:38 PM




As this topic seems to have raised its head again, there is a lot more information out there, with the General consensus, that the F-22 will have what can only be described as a 'healthy' advantage over the Typhoon, however, a number of reports state that WVR that there is little between the two aircraft, with the Typhoon having a slight edge (but you have to get to WVR first!!).



 



In BVR, whilst the F-22 dominates by a large margin, some of the more interesting comments coming out are that the Typhoon can obviously detect it has been 'painted' (though in the tests I understand PIRATE was not used), and also that in BVR there seemed to be "certain angles both in azimuth and elevation, in which the raptor could be spoted" (though no ranges etc were given). 






Oh gawd here we go again...

 

-DA



Oh c'mon Darth, you know you love these threads where the fanboys come out to play!!!!!
 
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DarthAmerica       12/15/2008 5:55:20 PM









As this topic seems to have raised its head again, there is a lot more information out there, with the General consensus, that the F-22 will have what can only be described as a 'healthy' advantage over the Typhoon, however, a number of reports state that WVR that there is little between the two aircraft, with the Typhoon having a slight edge (but you have to get to WVR first!!).







 







In BVR, whilst the F-22 dominates by a large margin, some of the more interesting comments coming out are that the Typhoon can obviously detect it has been 'painted' (though in the tests I understand PIRATE was not used), and also that in BVR there seemed to be "certain angles both in azimuth and elevation, in which the raptor could be spoted" (though no ranges etc were given). 














Oh gawd here we go again...



 



-DA









Oh c'mon Darth, you know you love these threads where the fanboys come out to play!!!!!

Yeah I admit I used to have quite a bit of fun in those mine is better than yours flame wars! Guilty as charged...;) But still, F-22 "Healthy" advantage? LMAO...
 
 
-DA
 
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JFKY    The Answer is Clear   12/15/2008 6:12:21 PM
The fighter that MY nation makes will beat the fighter that YOUR nation beats...you guyz are all doodie heads and losers, with a couple of poseurs thrown in for good measure.  My nation's a/c, otoh, are designed by brilliant engineers and flown by Boeklcke's and Goering's ( fine combat pilot) and our weapons NEVER miss, well hardly ever....you should be thankful that my nation's a/c never meet yours in aerial combat....
 
So there...neener-neener-neener!
 
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HERALD1357       12/16/2008 3:16:40 PM

The fighter that MY nation makes will beat the fighter that YOUR nation beats...you guyz are all doodie heads and losers, with a couple of poseurs thrown in for good measure.  My nation's a/c, otoh, are designed by brilliant engineers and flown by Boeklcke's and Goering's ( fine combat pilot) and our weapons NEVER miss, well hardly ever....you should be thankful that my nation's a/c never meet yours in aerial combat....

 

So there...neener-neener-neener!

Oh come on JFKY. You run into the occasional yoyo who'll admit upfront that French satellite launchers are excellent, that the Chally II is a fine tank, that the Leopard II is also a fine tank, that the Typhoon is an outstanding aircraft, that the Type 209, 212 and 214 are good subs, that the Russians are bgetter at thwe EW game than anybody credits them, that well........... you know. 
 
Its just that when the fanboys start running around............ 
An
is not an
 
  and you should be arguing about the 
 
if you don't want to be considered a 
 

 Herald
 
 
 
 
   

 
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JFKY    Herald    12/16/2008 3:46:55 PM
Nicely done...*LOL*
 
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Bluewings12       12/16/2008 6:34:11 PM
What are the Comms on the F-22 right now ?
How can the aircraft "talk" to another aircraft , share data , provide tracking and targeting to another fighter ?
 
I explain , as late as january this year (2008) the F-22 had no other means to communicate with other aircrafts than with its intra-flight data link or by normal radio voice . No Link-16 , nothing .
 
""The intra-flight data link on the F-22 is the aircraft's only link that transmits. The fighter has a Joint Tactical Information Display System (JTIDS) receiver, but any communication off the aircraft, other than to another F-22, is done by voice radio.""
(From aviationweek)
How is the Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) going ?
""These systems have two drawbacks, however. Each pencil beam can talk to only one aircraft at a time and needs a dedicated transmitter to do that, so it is not a network device. And the intra-flight links only talk to other aircraft of the same type.""

I 'm asking because in a highly Net Concentrated Airwarfare , communication in between different air platforms is of the utmost importance . In this regard , a so-called 5th generation fighter should provide something better than that , which is precisely the case with aircrafts like Typhoon , Rafale and especialy Gripen .
When I imagine 4 Raptors trying to talk to each other (or 2 Raptors and 2 F-teens) in a middle of a highly EW saturated airspace , I start to worry ...
So , did the USAF update the poor Comms on the F-22 ?
 
Cheers .
 
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warpig       12/16/2008 7:57:54 PM
Four (or more) F-22 can talk to each other right now using their IFDL, no problem.  Now that times have changed, other capabilities have grown, and the desire for maximum stealth is seen to not always have to take complete precedence over being able to network in two directions with other aircraft, we're in the process of putting Link16 and/or equivalent transmit capability on the jets.  Then the F-22 will be even more awesome and dominating that it already is.  Sweet!
 
These two articles seem to show some pretty decent networking potential for both the TTNT and the BACN datalinks.
 
-----
 
Battlefield Airborne ComNode Enables Real-Time Distribution Of F-22 Data To Legacy Aircraft
by Staff Writers
San Diego CA (SPX) May 14, 2008

Northrop Grumman successfully accomplished the first-ever real-time download and distribution of sensor information from an F-22 Raptor fighter to F-15 and F-16 aircraft via an airborne network and an F-22-unique datalink.
 
Northrop Grumman demonstrated this in-flight data transfer capability with its Battlefield Airborne Communications Node (BACN) during the U.S. Air Force's Joint Expeditionary Force Experiment 2008 (JEFX-08).
 
Downloading and distributing situational awareness data from the stealthy F-22's forward deployed positions leverages the Raptor's sensor capabilities as a force multiplier and as a future enabler for enhanced effects-based planning. BACN played a critical role in substantiating the operational utility and technical performance of Internet protocol-based airborne networking.
 
"BACN offers forward tactical operations with robust communications and critical applications to enhance mission operational effectiveness," said Roger Fujii, vice president and general manager of the Network Communications Division for Northrop Grumman's Mission Systems sector.
 
"We are pleased to have the opportunity to demonstrate BACN's network-centric capabilities that enhance battlespace communications and intelligence sharing. Our success at JEFX-08 validates that this advantage can be quickly fielded to our warfighters."
 
The company accomplished the historic data download and distribution over an airborne network using a combination of BACN, an F-22-unique datalink and Link-16, the U.S. military's primary datalink system. BACN's Intra-Flight Data Link subsystem (BIS) provided the Air Force and joint forces legacy fighters with F-22 interoperability for the first time ever.
 
BIS received and translated selected F-22 sensor data into the standard tactical data link format and distributed the data to F-15s, F-16s and ground-based operations centers at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., and Langley Air Force Base, Va. BIS did not require modifications to either hardware or software in the F-22 aircraft, and did not compromise any of the characteristics of the F-22.
 
During the F-22's tactical engagement in JEFX-08, BACN's voice bridging subsystem accomplished another first by creating a bridge between the F-22 pilots on tactical radios and the air operations center on Voice Over Internet Protocol telephone.
 
BACN is a forward-deployed airborne communications relay and network-centric enterprise information server that allows real-time information exchanges among many different, distant military and commercial communications systems. BACN's gateway executive processor is integrated with Northrop Grumman-developed software that provides "translation services" between incompatible radios.
 
This translation enables real-time information exchanges among many military and commercial communications systems. The system is designed for use in a variety of unmanned and manned aircraft, and is currently installed on a Global Express business jet and NASA's WB-57 high-altitude aircraft.
 
The Air Force's JEFX exercise is a series of experiments evaluating new and emerging technologies in a realistic, joint and coalition environment. JEFX-08 included all military services, coalition nations, combatant commands and a variety of U.S. government agencies.
 
-----
 
US Army, Navy And Air Force Gain New Intelligence And Surveillance Capability
 
by Staff Writers
Marietta GA (SPX) May 07, 2008
Two Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptors successfully sent classified sensor data to ground stations in the U.S. Air Force's Joint Expeditionary Force Experiment 2008 (JEFX 08) conducted April 15-25 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. JEFX is an Air Force Chief of Staff-sponsored experiment that combines real-world air and ground forces, simulation, and technology insertions into a warfighting environment.
 
The experiment is an annual venue for innovative command and control (C2) and targeting technologies. Numerous Army, Navy, and Air Force aircraft as well as ground forces participated in JEFX 08.
 
During this two-week experiment, two specially configured F-22s transmitted real-time sensor information to ground stations at Nellis AFB, Nev. and Langley AFB, Va. using an experimental version of the Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) waveform developed by Rockwell Collins.
 
An F-22 data link test configuration flew in realistic scenarios that highlighted the Raptor's significant non-traditional intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance (NTISR) capabilities.
 
"Lockheed Martin was excited about the Air Force's decision to demonstrate the value of sharing F-22 ISR data with other fighters and back to the Combined Air Operations Center," said Larry Lawson, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company executive vice president and F-22 general program manager.
 
"This is the first time in history that F-22 sensor data was down-linked to the Combined Air Operations Center (CAOC) using a tactical network."
 
The combined partnership of Lockheed Martin and the Air Force tackled the enormous security challenges to bring highly-desired F-22 sensor data to ground-based users.
 
"This was a team effort all the way around, from Headquarters Air Combat Command to the F-22 Program Office to the U.S. Air Force Warfare Center at Nellis AFB," Lawson said.
 
Not only did the F-22s share sensor data with ground-based users, the aircraft were also tactical network members among other air and ground platforms.
 
"Our F-22s took a huge first step toward becoming net-enabled in JEFX08. The pilots were sending and receiving information such as command and control messaging, imagery, airspace updates, and free text messages using a cockpit touch-screen color display," said Mark Jefferson, director of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Horizontal Integration.
 
"They stayed pretty busy conducting offensive counter air and destruction of enemy air defenses air dominance missions as well as dynamic targeting attacks with F-16s and non-traditional ISR collection events during the exercise, while also simultaneously piping classified sensor data to the CAOC."
 
A modified Lockheed Martin F-16 also conducted numerous close air support and interdiction missions, sharing tactical information with other JEFX08 Initiatives, including the US Navy's Maritime Ops Center, the Army's Future Combat System.
 
"This was a cost-effective opportunity to explore numerous areas of future interest while leveraging Lockheed Martin's extensive independent research and development efforts," said Lawson. These areas include F-22 networking requirements, assessment of Internet Protocol (IP) based waveforms on 5th generation aircraft, IP-based network application development and multi-level security issues.
 
The F-22 Raptor, the world's most advanced fighter, is built by Lockheed Martin teamed with Boeing and Pratt and Whitney. Parts and subsystems are provided by approximately 1,000 suppliers in 44 U.S. states.
 
F-22 production takes place at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics facilities in Marietta, Ga.; Fort Worth, Texas; Palmdale, Calif.; and Meridian, Miss., as well as at Boeing's plant in Seattle, Wash. Final assembly, initial flight testing and delivery of the Raptor occurs at Marietta.
 
Raptors are currently assigned to five U.S. bases. Flight testing takes place at the Air Force Flight Test Center at Edwards AFB, Calif. Operational tactics development and Weapons School training is ongoing at Nellis AFB, Nev. Pilot and crew chief training takes place at Tyndall AFB, Fla.
 
Operational Raptors are assigned to the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley AFB, Va., (27th and 94th Fighter Squadrons) and now the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf AFB, Alaska. Raptors will also be based at Holloman AFB, N.M., and Hickam AFB, Hawaii.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    See what I mean?   12/16/2008 9:57:15 PM
 
Right on cue, one shows up.
 
Herald

 
 
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Bluewings12       12/16/2008 10:59:45 PM
Thanks for the update Warpig , it 's good news .
I did ask because I do not follow on a day by day basis the life of the F-22 .
 
I was indeed aware of the BACN advanced tested during JEFX-08 , but I did not look for further details . Again thanks to you :-)
 
""The company accomplished the historic data download and distribution over an airborne network using a combination of BACN, an F-22-unique datalink and Link-16, the U.S. military's primary datalink system. BACN's Intra-Flight Data Link subsystem (BIS) provided the Air Force and joint forces legacy fighters with F-22 interoperability for the first time ever.
 
BIS received and translated selected F-22 sensor data into the standard tactical data link format and distributed the data to F-15s, F-16s and ground-based operations centers at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., and Langley Air Force Base, Va. BIS did not require modifications to either hardware or software in the F-22 aircraft, and did not compromise any of the characteristics of the F-22.""
 
This is what I wanted to hear .
When you know how old is the F-22 program , one could only wander why it has been done so late , but better now than never !
Another interesting question would be to ask the speed , rate and bandwidth of both systems when working alongside each other . Do we have anything on this ? I 'm asking because the TTNT is rather slow and cannot transmit pictures (from an optical device) or SAR (from an AESA radar) . Transmiting that kind of infos is primordial and it must be done in real time if possible . So , how is it going ?
I know that I 'm going a bit technical and what I ask might not be on open forums , but I have interest in "Net Warfare Capabilities" . I recently checked some work from the Swedish on the Gripen NG and it is mouth watering . Us in France are actually working on a very similar system because it really cuts the mustard ! As an exemple , when 4 Gripens are flying together , what each pilot sees on its main tactical screen is not what his radar is seeing but what the 4 Gripen 's radars are seeing , everything being presented in a unique picture and in real time . From a Pilot 's POW , it 's simply great .
That 's teamwork to its best !
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       12/16/2008 11:17:45 PM
(Herald , I forgive you as you inspire me pity)

Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       12/17/2008 1:57:35 AM
I recently checked some work from the Swedish on the Gripen NG and it is mouth watering . Us in France are actually working on a very similar system because it really cuts the mustard ! As an exemple , when 4 Gripens are flying together , what each pilot sees on its main tactical screen is not what his radar is seeing but what the 4 Gripen 's radars are seeing , everything being presented in a unique picture and in real time . From a Pilot 's POW , it 's simply great .

That 's teamwork to its best !

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that the Swedes asked for entry into a current comms project - yes folks, they're so confident of their own comms ability they asked for inclusion into a US sponsored project.  (currently 8 members in the initial draft)

If you can name the project then I'll believe that you're not trolling again.

Thats teamwork btw. 8 partners in the first tranche of development.



 

 
 
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Phaid       12/17/2008 1:28:06 PM
As an exemple , when 4 Gripens are flying together , what each pilot sees on its main tactical screen is not what his radar is seeing but what the 4 Gripen 's radars are seeing , everything being presented in a unique picture and in real time . From a Pilot 's POW , it 's simply great .
 
The F-22 does the same thing, they all have a shared tactical picture, which includes both the picture from the F-22s shared over their datalink, and the data from other platforms (E-3s, legacy fighters, etc) over Link-16.
 
I see you've been keeping up with xav's bashing on the F-22 thread at air-defense.net.  Somehow I just knew you'd come back and troll that crap when you read it.  That whole "I won't miss strategypage" thing didn't last nearly long enough.
 
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Bluewings12       12/17/2008 5:40:31 PM
Yep , the French pain in the a** is back for a very short while . Just to put few things straight and to allow you to put your feet back on the ground and stop dreaming , lol .
 
First :
""As an exemple , when 4 Gripens are flying together , what each pilot sees on its main tactical screen is not what his radar is seeing but what the 4 Gripen 's radars are seeing , everything being presented in a unique picture and in real time . From a Pilot 's POW , it 's simply great .(Me)
 
The F-22 does the same thing, they all have a shared tactical picture, which includes both the picture from the F-22s shared over their datalink, and the data from other platforms (E-3s, legacy fighters, etc) over Link-16.
(Phaid)
 
Wrong . At the present moment , the F-22 CANNOT transmit anything to another fighter , only to another F-22 . TTNT will not be fully implemented until few years at least . The F-22 can only receive through the Link-16 . You supposed to know that even if it 's hard to admit . I know perfectly what TTNT is and it is why I asked how the program was going . TTNT will provide larger bandwith and is more suitable for a LO aircraft than Link-16 . But until everbody (all your fighter fleet) is able to use it , the F-22 is stuck to share datas with another F-22 and that 's it , at least on a grand scale .
It is why I 've been a wee bit sarcastic about the Comms on the F-22 .
Anyway I saw that nobody fell into my trap and I know now why : you didn 't know exactly what was TTNT .
Or else , you would have cursed me for saying that TTNT had a lower bandwith than the Link-16 , but nobody did . 
(sarcastic smile ...)
 
gf :
""If you can name the project then I'll believe that you're not trolling again.""
 
You being Australian , I believe that you 're talking about TTNT (again) . Few people in Australia (and somewhere else also) think that the Link-16/JTIDS will be a thing of the past soon and they wander if the F-35 will be able to use the TTNT technology as it seems that is not on the roadmap yet (I might be wrong on this) . NATO has expressed concerns too .
But for now , the Swedes (Gripen NG) are perfectly happy with what they call ""The world´s most highly developed data link"" . 
 
So far , all I 've been saying still stand while you 're all googling hard to try to make me wrong . 
The fact is that you hate when someone (especialy me) put his finger on the mighty F-22 (God forbid it) . Furthermore , I did not say a single word about the Rafale , but just pointed out that the Gripen 's Comms are more advanced than the F-22 's .
A lot of people here should stop swallowing all the US propaganda and start to look around . Fortunatly for you , the US engineerers ans scientists are not fanboys and they also look around ...
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
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warpig       12/17/2008 6:12:17 PM

First :

""As an exemple , when 4
Gripens are flying together , what each pilot sees on its main tactical
screen is not what his radar is seeing but what the 4 Gripen 's radars
are seeing , everything being presented in a unique picture and in real time . From a Pilot 's POW , it 's simply great .(Me)
 



The F-22 does the same thing, they all have a shared tactical
picture, which includes both the picture from the F-22s shared over
their datalink, and the data from other platforms (E-3s, legacy
fighters, etc) over Link-16.



(Phaid)

 



Wrong . At the present moment , the F-22 CANNOT transmit anything to another fighter , only to another F-22 . TTNT will not be fully implemented until few years at least . The F-22 can only receive through the Link-16 . You supposed to know that even if it 's hard to admit .


Phaid is right and here's why:
 
Take what you wrote and substitute "F-22" each time you wrote "Gripen."  Here's what you get, which is completely true today, and that's why Phaid said what he said:
 
"As an exemple , when 4 [F-22s] are flying together , what each pilot sees on its main tactical screen is not what his radar is seeing but what the 4 [F-22]'s radars are seeing , everything being presented in a unique picture and in real time . From a Pilot 's POW , it 's simply great .
 
Everyone knows that the F-22 can not currently transmit data to non-F-22s.  That's why--in light of the reasons I already gave--we're in the process of deciding what other links to give it so that it can.
 
 
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