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Subject: F-22 VS. Eurofighter
mike14    2/15/2005 2:24:35 PM
Who would win.
 
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metalfan182       8/24/2007 3:23:00 PM
 

First off the F-15 is a very capable air craft. It has a confirmed combat kill ratio  of at least 200:0. It is also an air craft that is more then 20 years old. Taking one out is not a joking matter, seeing as we have never really lost one. The EuroFighter is basically a F-15 on steroids. Call it what ever you want but that’s what it boils down to. The F-22 on the other hand is in a whole new class of war bird. A hybrid of every advanced feature the USAF could put on it. What I find funny is that people in favor of the EuroFighter will try and point our theoretical scenarios that are very unlikely to ever happen. Also they focus on how the EuroFighter might be better then the F-22 in one or two aspects. Mostly I hear about the EuroFighters 9 G-Suit and its maneuverability. The thing is that the F-22 was made in a way that if you beat it in one category, it will beat you in 5 or 6 more. There's a more maneuverable plane the F-22 is faster and more stealthy. There’s a faster plane the F-22 will turn circles around it. Nothing can beat it in every one of its strengths and I would bet that no one but the USA will for at least 20 more years.
 
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DarthAmerica       8/24/2007 3:27:42 PM




FS...lol do you have any idea about whats being discussed here? F-15 has link-16 just like the Eurofighter. You demonstrate everyday your complete lack of knowledge.


To be netcentric is not to have only a link 16, it is to have a datafusion computer with correct software and an interface for pilot to exploit it.A F22 can detect a F15 at 300 km and turn around it undetected.

Eurofighter has many other features F15 do not have and which are on first importance when dealling with other LO threats , including much lower RCS, end game ESM/ECM, IRST, REAL datafusion etc....F15 is a former generation aircraft even with updates.

You are the ignorant.


FS, F-15's have all of these features and are in the same generation as all the ECD. Every time the F-15 has competed against a ECD the result is the same. F-15 victory. So, either you are right and the entire planet is wrong. Or the F-15 really does have characteristics that make it competitive vs ECD and you are mistaken. FS please try and recover any shred of credibility you may have had and admit you are wrong. Also you don't understand what netcentric is at all.
-DA
 
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french stratege       8/24/2007 3:27:47 PM
The EuroFighter is basically a F-15 on steroids.
No since it has a greatly reduced RCS and also have been designed with integration of new generation jammer.
Sophisticated new generation internal jammer integration need at lot of work on airframe to get full efficiency.
In the new generation plane, radar return main strobe are careully oriented to get differentiated jamming strategy according to these return signal aspects.
You can not change F15 shape.
 
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DarthAmerica       8/24/2007 3:34:30 PM

I'm only educating you Darth as Herald and other fanboys who have put F22 and F35 to the level of God hand.

Indeed as a foreigner not bounded by US laws like a really informed US military specialist could be, I'm free on my comments on US weapons and especially when I can back them by USA governement open sources .



Actually you are not. I am much better informed than you and lack the ego and agenda you have. No laws bound me from discussing this well understood OSINT information. Well undetstood by everybody to include other nations and our enemies but appearently not by you.
-DA 
 
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apoorexcuse    okay, this is obvious... I hope   8/24/2007 3:48:04 PM



      
Someone who truly knows better correct me please if I am wrong, but... In USAF operations a fighter is not going to be going around blasting away with its radar.  That is done by the AWACS since it is further back, has a better coverage and more power for burn through (is it laughable to think a fighter jammer could jam an AWACS)?.  When a fighter is ready to engage it will then use the AWACS to cue its own radar and minimize the emissions period?  And I would also assume this to be true, but perhaps less so, for the F22 than others.  The AWACS coverage and power is the reason again.   So for aircraft with extensive LO capabilities the odds of being detected is diminished, greatly. 

Honestly, some of these threads are very informative and interesting, but some of these posts get quite repetitive.


From my reading of official OSINT this is the way it works more or less. I know that on land we try to practice EMCON or "emissions control" as much as possible to avoid being targeted. I'm sure the USAF does too. Not only that, but unless you are doing barrage jamming then you have to know what the specific characteristics of the radar are to apply more advanced techniques. I know this for a fact and it is my professional opinion and experience. Barrage Jamming will make you very vulnerable to detection long before you could possibly detect others. It also causes fratricide issues.

 

As to the repetitious nature of these threads. Thats almost always due to FS/BW who insist on trolling the site. Other times it's new enthusiast and fanboys who have only superficial understanding but they are quickly educated.

-DA


...that if I am watching you with my very powerful LPI AESA with a signifigantly longer range for detection and firing solution, after being cued by my AWACS, and my nice little computer tells me that you are a threat, I will fire my nice *short legged* AMRAAM.  Now assuming you can locate the direction of my LPI AESA (and thus me)  my LPI AESA is gonna be frequency hopping, good luck with a processor that is that fast in a military avionics package, my missile is already on its way.  Now your Euro-Canard is trying to get a solution on me, and trying to locate my missile that you dont know for certain has or has not been launched.  But I am rather far away, and you can also cue your IRST if you want, although that is a lot to manage while trying to stay on track to your target, or avoid other aggressors like me.  So in the mean while my little AMRAAM is dropping real fast down on you, down because I like to sit as high as I can, its my superiority complex...  It finally goes active, and after a moment or two your nice avionics package detects it and tries to JAM it.  Is there time, is there a second missile, is the missile being cued by my *overpriced* bird of prey, do you have time to eject?

A funny thing has happened since I started following this website, a certain poster has often ratcheted up the RCS reduction on the two Euro-canards to the point where it is now 30-60 times, yes that is times, not percent, lower than... what? 

I guess it still comes down to who detects who first, and if both sides are practicing emissions control (anybody that played hide and go seek when they were five knows about that...) then whoever has the right combination of AWACS coverage vs RCS reduction or true LO will likely locate and engage first.  In the case of the true LO, then you could be the forward eyes as well.  If I recall, this was alluded to during the recent exercises involving our *overpriced* bird of prey.

But FS really seems to WANT to fight the Raptor with his Rafale.  Why?
 
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Herald1234    Reply to poseur 1   8/24/2007 3:50:30 PM

To be clear on F22:

F22 radar has a 170 to 190 km detection range on a 1 SQM RCS target (which is very good) according to public data and also a short evaluation knowing state of art technology and physical characteristic displayed (antenna surface, number of modules, power output etc..).
 
Public data? Your numbers incidentally are wrong.

If EF has a 0,1 sqm RCS, it reduces APG 77 range to 100 km.Of course EF radar can track only an F22 in front aspect within the 20 km range so in WVR.
 
By what criteria do you post this nonsense? Threshhold of signal detection, cretin.  The APG 77 you seriously underrate. 

However EF has sophisticated wide band digital internal ESM/ECM and ECM are likely to reduced radar range to half this value so 50 to 60 km (even for a LPI radar) but with radar F22 has still the edge.However even agaisnt LPI APG 77, EF RWR will detect APG a those range but not with a 100% probability but fighter networking help.
 
How does a jammer and a RWR reduce EF signal return? How do you baseline two RWRs that give you a smear bearing to give you range data? in a three body problem? How do you track a strober? How do you do this when the strober is looking down at you from altitude and from the energy advantage when you are desperately trying to escape the AMRAAMs he just lobbed at you , poseur?
 
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french stratege       8/24/2007 4:06:55 PM
 You can't network the 1-1.5 degree IRST
A first error, an IRST have a fraction of a degree accuracy.Even publicly, Rafale or Eurofighter designer give 0,1° accuracy order for RWR thus for IRST it is even better.
 
 
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french stratege       8/24/2007 4:23:30 PM
And rest is in the same bullsh@it......
You did not understood that homing on jamming work only if signal is more powerfull or returning signal can be distinguished by encoding which is even more difficult as you can close to background noise in a jamming environment.
IT is why LO matters.
I respond by FACTs because I'm fed up to see US poseurs to think we are technologically third world nations unable to make a competitive yet technology vs US equipement when I know the true better.
You decided to field top passive stealth technology (and please to your military lobby).Nice.We decided to field LO PLUS TOP ECM and the efficency gap is not a magnitude between those two solutions.
Now a F16 like fighter have a 3 Sqm RCS.Divides it by 30 to 60 and you have a 0,1 to 0,05.
A F15 fighter has a 10 Sqm RCS.Divides it by 30 to 60 and you have a 0,3 to 0,15.
Divide those value by a further 20 to 50 ratio and you have F35/F22 range.
But I would point out that a good jamming is equivalent to a 10 to 20 RCS reduction value.
 
 
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DarthAmerica       8/24/2007 4:30:56 PM

And rest is in the same bullsh@it......

You did not understood that homing on jamming work only if signal is more powerfull or returning signal can be distinguished by encoding which is even more difficult as you can close to background noise in a jamming environment.

IT is why LO matters.
I respond by FACTs because I'm fed up to see US poseurs to think we are technologically third world nations unable to make a competitive yet technology vs US equipement when I know the true better.

You decided to field top passive stealth technology (and please to your military lobby).Nice.We decided to field LO PLUS TOP ECM and the efficency gap is not a magnitude between those two solutions.

Now a F16 like fighter have a 3 Sqm RCS.Divides it by 30 to 60 and you have a 0,1 to 0,05.

A F15 fighter has a 10 Sqm RCS.Divides it by 30 to 60 and you have a 0,3 to 0,15.

Divide those value by a further 20 to 50 ratio and you have F35/F22 range.

But I would point out that a good jamming is equivalent to a 10 to 20 RCS reduction value.

 



FS give it up man. You aren't fooling anyone but yourself. At least have the professionalism to admit when you are wrong.
 
-DA
 
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Phaid       8/24/2007 4:31:21 PM
A first error, an IRST have a fraction of a degree accuracy.Even publicly, Rafale or Eurofighter designer give 0,1° accuracy order for RWR thus for IRST it is even better.

Could you clarify: do you mean the OSF that was declared obsolescent by DGA and thus only 48 examples were procured, or do you mean OSF-NG which does not exist yet even on paper?
 
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