F-22 VS. Eurofighter

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Wingman 7/28/2009 8:02:14 AM

The other issue that won?t go away is the lack of helmet sight such as the joint helmet mounted cueing system (JHMCS). Without this, Raptor is at a distinct disadvantage against a dogfight opponent with a more robust high off boresight (HOBS) capability. Raptor can call upon thrust-vectoring to bring its foe into missile envelope, but an enemy with a helmet sight still presents a real threat.
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Changes include a lock-on-after- launch modification to further stretch the weapon's range and high-off boresight (HOBS) lock-on without helmet-mounted cueing.
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"Helmetless HOBS"is intended to permit the AIM-9X to scan in the vertical mode, lock on and be fired at targets without the aid of a helmet-mounted sight. "This is basically a poor man's cueing system," says West. A similar capability has been developed and tested for the Lockheed Martin/Rafael Python 4.
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DATE:21/06/07
SOURCE:Flight Daily News
New Hi-tech helmet for Typhoon in production

BAE Systems has started production of the Eurofighter Typhoon?s head equipment assembly (HEA), RAF sources are expecting to receive the HEA during the first quarter of 2008 for operational testing and evaluation, but the manufacturer has announced only that deliveries are scheduled to begin early in 2009.
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Raytheon confirms that a potential upgrade for the AIM-9X missile paves the way for a follow-on project to dramatically extend the range of the air-to-air weapon.

The company has started captive carry flights for a Block 2 version of the AIM-9X, which includes an updated guidance section, improved fuze and an added data link, said Raytheon business development director James Smith.

Installing the one-way antenna means the AIM-9X would be able to lock on to a target after being launched. This alone would extend the AIM-9X range to nearly beyond visual range, or about 12.9km (6.9nm).

Smith said he expects the USAF eventually to go further and install a more powerful rocket motor that could fully exploit the new data link capability: "Lock-on after launch implies there may be an interest down the road to increase the range."

The Block 2 concept remains in testing. Raytheon plans to complete 21 captive carry and three live fired tests, with the first of the latter starting in October. A production decision by the USAF is expected in the second quarter of 2009, with first delivery possible by 2010.

Meanwhile, Raytheon will select a rocket motor supplier and stage another flight test for a new, heavily modified version of the AIM-120 advanced medium range air to air missile (AMRAAM).

The US Missile Defense Agency has awarded Raytheon a $10 million contract to continue development, and funding could lead to a formal launch in 2010, says Thomas Keck, Raytheon vice-president for Air Force programmes.

Raytheon aims to deliver 20 copies of the new missile - dubbed the Network Centric Air Defence Element (NCADE) - before 2011.
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I think it is clear where the advantage is, and Typhoon have it in VWR today.

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warpig 7/28/2009 10:20:32 AM

I think it is clear where the advantage is, and Typhoon have it in VWR today.

Finally, after all these posts, you make your point: If an F-22 and a Eurofighter are already past each other but are WVR, and if the Eurofighter has a wingman that's approaching from another angle and is also WVR and close enough to see and track the F-22 on his own radar, then the wingman can pass tracking data to the Eurofighter who can then launch an ASRAAM over his shoulder back after the F-22.

Wow, well, there it is, point made. Shit, I hope no F-22s ever fly behind any Eurofighters while they have wingmen coming back the other way at the same time, because then the F-22 may take an ASRAAM up the tailpipe!!! I wonder if the Saudi Arabian Air Force is reading this, because if they are smart they'll practice their anti-F-22 maneuvers by going into a Thatch Weave whenever they get WVR with an F-22!!!

Well done, Wingman, for pointing out this critical weakness in the supposedly oh-so-powerful F-22!!!

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growler 7/28/2009 10:32:02 AM

"HOB and HOBS are two different things"

Oh really?

And why don't you break it down for us kid?

Tell us what these Acronyms mean...

Apparently "wingman" (previously known as Pierre LeGrand, previously known as Sampaix) doesn't understand that HOB and HOBS means the same thing: High Off-Boresight. It means missiles with the ability to engage targets at high angles relative to the aircraft's nose.

And as far as whether seekers can gimbal to point behind the aircraft wingline, that is really meaningless. What counts with a HOBS missile is having an INS and the ability of the aircraft to download target bearing into that INS, and the maneuverability to position itself to acquire the target. An F/A-18 with JHMCS can provide that targeting info all by itself; that RAAF test did not require offboard designation. The reason ASRAAM can do it and current AIM-9X cannot is because ASRAAM has an INS and AIM-9X doesn't.

The real science fiction here is the idea of using Link-16 to target something in a dogfight. Its update frequency is just too slow to handle cases where the shooter, the designator, and the target are all maneuvering.

Anyway what we can probably all agree on is that stuff like JHMCS and ASRAAM make dogfighting much too close to a 1:1 exchange rate regardless of aircraft performance. The F-22 doesn't have those things because it is intended to avoid dogfighting for that very reason. So if you want to decry the F-22 because it isn't optimized to fight in the way that least takes advantage of its capabilities, go ahead. It makes about as much sense as arguing that Army snipers suck because they can't defeat a black belt in hand to hand combat.

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warpig 7/28/2009 10:42:59 AM

So if you want to decry the F-22 because it isn't optimized to fight in the way that least takes advantage of its capabilities, go ahead. It makes about as much sense as arguing that Army snipers suck because they can't defeat a black belt in hand to hand combat.

Beautiful post; right on target. My only suggestion is that you modify your analogy to read something like this:

So if you want to decry the F-22 because it isn't optimized to fight in the way that least takes advantage of its capabilities, go ahead. It makes about as much sense as arguing that Army snipers suck because if you give knives both to them and their intended targets and lock them all in a closet, they will survive only some of the time.

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Rufus 7/28/2009 1:18:54 PM

"Apparently "wingman" (previously known as Pierre LeGrand, previously known as Sampaix) doesn't understand that HOB and HOBS means the same thing: High Off-Boresight. It means missiles with the ability to engage targets at high angles relative to the aircraft's nose."

Exactly... and I will let his ignorance of the meaning of the terms he has misunderstood speak for his overall level of knowledge about the subject matter.

"And as far as whether seekers can gimbal to point behind the aircraft wingline, that is really meaningless. What counts with a HOBS missile is having an INS and the ability of the aircraft to download target bearing into that INS, and the maneuverability to position itself to acquire the target. An F/A-18 with JHMCS can provide that targeting info all by itself; that RAAF test did not require offboard designation. The reason ASRAAM can do it and current AIM-9X cannot is because ASRAAM has an INS and AIM-9X doesn't."

It is worth noting that LOAL and a datalink will be coming to the AIM-9x soon.

"Anyway what we can probably all agree on is that stuff like JHMCS and ASRAAM make dogfighting much too close to a 1:1 exchange rate regardless of aircraft performance. "

Also key information. Maneuverability and even pilot skill will be far smaller factors when combat between fighters equipped with HOBS missiles and helmet mounted sights takes place.

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Wingman 7/29/2009 7:37:38 AM

Apparently you guys are still making up capabilties the US dont have...

S for sigthing is pretty obvious whan it comes to it, everyone one is going HOB these days nopt everyone is capable of HOB Sighting, and no it is not the same, even if some incomplete press article mislead you to think so...

Now; all we have seen is denial for REAL capabilties and interpretations of them.

The best demonstrated in the US is a useful 80* sighting and designation both side of flight path, in Europe with Link-16 this value reached 360* and 90* (with use of HMDS potential.)

You can make as many claims as you wish the reality if it is no one is trruely capable of 360*X360* target designation from the shooter's sensors today.

For the rest you're free to keep mixing personal griefs with pseudo-technical issues, we're not interested.

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Herald12345 Aty least I know who this punk is now. 7/29/2009 7:49:09 AM

Please:

Instead ot adopting this attitude and being generaly negative, SHOW us a US demonstrateed capability equivalent to these, we're still waiting and i dont see where we are embarassing ourself considering the lack of response from you.

Now i wont even bother replying until we got a reply worth reading, all we got instead of what we ask for are insults and patronising tones.

It is not too much asking is it?

SO AGAIN: Can we have a US repport on succesful test-firing of a target situated BEYHOUND the wing line at firing time?

As far as the rest of the world is conscerned, the world's first was achieved only recently with an ASRAMM from an AAF F-18, and we provided with the link to the article. Cheers.

Can we have remedial action taken, please?

If you are too ignorant to realize what you are shown, then what is the point? That what we do BVR and for years WVR and did not think was tactically useful (fraticide) somebody did WVR and now brags about as being a world first for ASRAAM? Grow up!

Herald

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Wingman 7/29/2009 8:38:57 AM

Quote: If you are too ignorant to realize what you are shown, then what is the point?

Sorry BOY i know TONS more thanyou will ever do and mor eto the point i do NOT live in a state of denial..

You little video is far from demonstrating the SAME capabilities as i was saying you still donht grab the difference betyween firing vs a target you can track, starting from ther FRONT cector and one you can't.

MBDA ASRAAM was a world FIRST for these reasons it beats the US standard by an overal 20*+ and opens the firng envelop BEYHOND what had beed achiveved previously.

So about being an ignorant, please don't make of your standard a generality, you'd be better off learning your basics.

Quote: That what we do BVR and for years WVR and did not think was tactically useful (fraticide) somebody did WVR and now brags about as being a world first for ASRAAM? Grow up!

LOL!

You keep writing about what you don't understand nor can distinguish what it really means in terms of achievements and demonstrated capabilties, i think you're the one i need of growing up here, but i can understand why some people feel the need to associate by pretending that they know something they never learnt...

After all we all need to socialise.

I would strongly advise you to start sooner than later, and perhaps consider joining the Air Force if you are fit and capable enough.

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growler 7/29/2009 10:04:58 AM

MBDA ASRAAM was a world FIRST for these reasons it beats the US standard by an overal 20*+ and opens the firng envelop BEYHOND what had beed achiveved previously.

As I said, the ASRAAM test used JHMCS to obtain the target bearing, which was passed to the ASRAAM's INS. The ASRAAM launched in LOAL mode, maneuvered to the proper bearing, and acquired the target. This does not require "the fancy technologies developed in both side of the atlantic, such as shape recognition algotythms are not ported to the A2A role just yet", it is a capability flying today on an F/A-18A+. The reason AIM-9X cannot do this is because AIM-9X does not have an INS and therefore has no LOAL mode. That will change with AIM-9X Block 2, and in fact as Rufus pointed out AIM-9X Block 2's capabilities will exceed those of ASRAAM because AIM-9X Block 2 will have a datalink, which ASRAAM does not. Note that AIM-9X LOAL capability was demonstrated over three years ago.

The notion of 360x360 targeting using onboard sensors is nowhere near as far fetched as you seem to believe. Airplanes equipped with JHMCS and LOAL missiles can do it today, the only limitation being obstructions to the pilot's FOV. In the F-35 even that limitation will go away, since the EO-DAS system allows the pilot to see "through" the airframe using the IIR sensors.

For the rest, there is no reason to become hostile. I understand that having your preconceptions shown to be wrong can be confusing and even frightening, but you should take it in stride as a learning opportunity rather than lashing out.

Cheers.

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Herald12345 Bull IV. 7/29/2009 10:58:53 AM

Quote: If you are too ignorant to realize what you are shown, then what is the point?

Sorry BOY i know TONS more thanyou will ever do and mor eto the point i do NOT live in a state of denial..

Haven't even proved you know how planes work, Pierre.

As I see, engage of a chaser plane in aft aspect is plainly shown, liar.

MBDA ASRAAM was a world FIRST for these reasons it beats the US standard by an overal 20*+ and opens the firng envelop BEYHOND what had beed achiveved previously.

And since it is a US plane using a British rocket and US tech, where's the brag? Nowhere.

So about being an ignorant, please don't make of your standard a generality, you'd be better off learning your basics.

Why don't you start off by being honest, before yo0u try to instruct others?

Quote: That what we do BVR and for years WVR and did not think was tactically useful (fraticide) somebody did WVR and now brags about as being a world first for ASRAAM? Grow up!

BVR shots with AMRAAM using off platform guidance shown here:

NCADE for example.

After all we all need to socialise.

I would strongly advise you to start sooner than later, and perhaps consider joining the Air Force if you are fit and capable enough.

I don't take advice from my intellectual and moral inferior.

And when have you ever flown anything but your imagination, Pierre?

Another disgrace to France.

Herald

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Wingman 7/30/2009 7:10:55 AM

Herald12345

I don't take advice from my intellectual and moral inferior.

And when have you ever flown anything but your imagination, Pierre?

Another disgrace to France.

Herald

Boy...

On top of being ineducated, suffering from an out-of control anger management issue, plus the very obvious need to associate with people who knows tons more than yourself, you also have a block with any form of leaning process and are in full-blown reality denial and reverse psuchology.

Please get help for your own stake.

>>>> Back to topic.

Here is the opinion of RAF Air Vice Marshal David Walker, air officer commanding 1 Group.

US deployment

The RAF's 17 Sqn OEU has routinely deployed two aircraft and around 30 personnel to the USA to operate alongside US fighters including the Lockheed MartinF-22A Raptor. "The vast majority of this work is about making sure that the integration of the two platforms is working," says Walker. Asked how the fighters compare, he says: "If you want to say that stealth is a determining factor then Typhoon stands second to the F-22. But I think that as we do more work, the Typhoon will more than hold its own. It's the balance of how you use it, rather than what it is."

BAE Typhoon project test pilot Mark Bowman sees even less of a capability gap. "The F-22 is three times the cost, but you would struggle to see any advantage in the cockpit design - the cost is there to maintain stealth," he says. "Typhoon is most likely equivalent, if not better".

DATE:24/04/07

SOURCE:Flight International

Eurofighter Typhoon special: Blue sky thinking

By Craig Hoyle

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Craig Hoyle is the Military Correspondant for flight International.

So Mr 12345, here is a tip:

Get yourself a good councellor and try to find a social network where you endly can put your personal issues on the table, this will do you more good than trying to remake a world where everything you wish for is reality.

It is a defect called MYTHOMANIA and is curable when taken care of at early stage (don't wait too long, boy!) , in particular trying to pass yourself for someone who knows his aviation, even the most basic notions is hopeless.

You DON'T.

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Wingman 7/30/2009 7:35:10 AM

List of aircraft flown since 1975...

MS 880 100 Rally. (Solo)

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Jodel D90. (90 hp, Solo)

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Piper Cub. (Solo)

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MS 880 100 Rally Sport. (D-C including passing LOOPS and Split-S during advanced Maneuvrability training)

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Cessna F-150. (D-C)

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MS 880 180 Rally. (D-C)

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Gendarmerie Nationale Cessna 210 (D-C)

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Jurca Sirocco. (DC)

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A FEW gliders in D-C...

I also have a log book for parachuting with 11 recorded static Jumps fromAdA MH.1521 Broussard and Cessna 210 at B.A 726 Nimes Guarron and Challon su Saone with the AdA Section Militaire de Parachutisme Sportif.

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The parachute used at the time was the Aerazur TAP 65/20.

12345: As opposed to you i DON'T NEED to invent myself a life, i had and still have one.

Cheers.

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Beazz 7/30/2009 4:51:22 PM

Please get help for your own stake.

>>>> Back to topic.

Here is the opinion of RAF Air Vice Marshal David Walker, air officer commanding 1 Group.

US deployment

OK..... Clearly, but politically says, the F22 is better.

One mans opinion. But it is merely an opinion of the cockpit *design*. NOT the capabliltys of the airplane and what the pilot actually does from said cockpit. Not to mention it's an opinion form a competitor. lol Duhhhh. Looks to me like the man is grasping at straws to find ANYTHING he *might* be able to claim HIS a/c may be equal with the F22 at. And the one thing he comes up with in no way, shape, manner or form even remotely emplys the Typhoon is a match for the F22. It's no more important to a/c performance then saying the Typhoon is prettier the the F22. Big deal.

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Lynstyne 7/30/2009 4:58:31 PM

Please get help for your own stake.

>>>> Back to topic.

Here is the opinion of RAF Air Vice Marshal David Walker, air officer commanding 1 Group.

US deployment

OK..... Clearly, but politically says, the F22 is better.

what i said in the other thread

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Wingman 7/30/2009 6:15:26 PM

Quote: Not to mention it's an opinion form a competitor. lol Duhhhh.

Since when exactly is DoD planning to sell F-22?

Quote: Looks to me like the man is grasping at straws to find ANYTHING he *might* be able to claim HIS a/c may be equal with the F22 at. And the one thing he comes up with in no way, shape, manner or form even remotely emplys the Typhoon is a match for the F22. It's no more important to a/c performance then saying the Typhoon is prettier the the F22. Big deal.

No disrespect but when you show me an equal rank and flight book i'll consider taking your opinion over his, even as a comparative.

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