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Subject: F-22 VS. Eurofighter
mike14    2/15/2005 2:24:35 PM
Who would win.
 
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giblets       5/30/2009 5:24:47 AM
If anyone is interested in seeing the maneouverability of a fully loaded Eurofighter, how about with 6 1,000lb bombs, 4 Amraams and 2 Sraams and a center line tank?
 
 
 
 
 
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snowy67    Dogfights?   7/21/2009 12:25:57 PM
I am perplexed by all this talk of engines and radar profiles..
 
Before you look at the geeky stuff, examine the world stage.. both these aircraft are folies.. exactly who are they going to dogfight? it is a known fact that the Luftwaffe could have produced at least 24,000 conventional pistoned engined fighters for the outcome of their V weapons project.. the same may be said of this argument.. These aircraft are designed to fight a non existant enemy.. trained infantry have become much more important than combat aircraft.. even a predator could be designed to drop a smart bomb.. which, is all these aircraft will do..
 
I think the U.S. could achieve air supremacy with super Sabres and Sidewinders in this political climate..
 
Look at the Falklands air war.. in a dogfight, was the A4 better than the Harrier? pointless argument.. the Sidewinder won the day.. that and Royal Navy pilots.. missiles will always win, now that there is not a direct fighter war..save this money and spend t on protecting the infantry soldier..
 
Things never change..
 
Thanks..
 
Quote    Reply

snowy67    Dogfights?   7/21/2009 12:34:23 PM
I am perplexed by all this talk of engines and radar profiles..
 
Before you look at the geeky stuff, examine the world stage.. both these aircraft are folies.. exactly who are they going to dogfight? it is a known fact that the Luftwaffe could have produced at least 24,000 conventional pistoned engined fighters for the outcome of their V weapons project.. the same may be said of this argument.. These aircraft are designed to fight a non existant enemy.. trained infantry have become much more important than combat aircraft.. even a predator could be designed to drop a smart bomb.. which, is all these aircraft will do..
 
I think the U.S. could achieve air supremacy with super Sabres and Sidewinders in this political climate..
 
Look at the Falklands air war.. in a dogfight, was the A4 better than the Harrier? pointless argument.. the Sidewinder won the day.. that and Royal Navy pilots.. missiles will always win, now that there is not a direct fighter war..save this money and spend t on protecting the infantry soldier..
 
Things never change..
 
Thanks..
 
Quote    Reply

Scoobydo       7/22/2009 2:08:23 AM
"These aircraft are designed to fight a non existant enemy."
 
They are, in a very real sense, left over projects from the cold war.
 
There is a strong argument however that the newest fighters of today need to be capable of being competitive in 20 or 30 years time.
 
Certainly the Chinese and the Russians are not sitting back and doing nothing. Both countries view the USA as nothing less than enemy number one.
 

 
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Reactive       7/23/2009 3:15:21 PM

I am perplexed by all this talk of engines and radar profiles..
 
You're certainly missing the point, there are potential conflagrations that can and will occur, a large fighter force provides a deterrent on its own, it is important.
 

Before you look at the geeky stuff, examine the world stage.. both these aircraft are folies.. exactly who are they going to dogfight? it is a known fact that the Luftwaffe could have produced at least 24,000 conventional pistoned engined fighters for the outcome of their V weapons project.. the same may be said of this argument.. These aircraft are designed to fight a non existant enemy.. trained infantry have become much more important than combat aircraft.. even a predator could be designed to drop a smart bomb.. which, is all these aircraft will do..

Dogfight? You're behind the times dude. The enemy does exist, russian SU30's perform very well against 4th gen american "teen series" jets, they are spending more on fighter development now than they have done since the COLD WAR.

 
 

I think the U.S. could achieve air supremacy with super Sabres and Sidewinders in this political climate..

Right, so you think the sidewinder can compete with Rusian BVR RH missiles with 5 times the range? I'm sure the PRC wishes more people thought like you.
 
 

Look at the Falklands air war.. in a dogfight, was the A4 better than the Harrier? pointless argument.. the Sidewinder won the day.. that and Royal Navy pilots.. missiles will always win, now that there is not a direct fighter war..save this money and spend t on protecting the infantry soldier..

 Er, and you haven't noticed any new Russian AAM's in the last 20 years? You haven't considered that RCS directly correlates to the range at which an enemy can get a missile lock? Idiots have always said such things, it nearly cost britain dearly as we prepared for WW2 without an adequate alternative to the Luftwaffe. Today we can't suddenly make fighter production lines as was possible with prop planes, we need to plan IN ADVANCE.
 
 

Things never change..

 You just don't know enough about the subject, and have the sort of opinion you would expect of someone who believes that no major conflicts will ever happen again, it's amazing how many of you there were before both WW1 and WW2, we always tend to view ourselves as being "in a warless future" and always prove ourselves wrong.
 

Thanks..
 
Welcome.

 
Quote    Reply

Wingman       7/27/2009 3:48:05 PM




 Er, and you haven't noticed any new Russian AAM's in the last 20 years? You haven't considered that RCS directly correlates to the range at which an enemy can get a missile lock? Idiots have always said such things, it nearly cost britain dearly as we prepared for WW2 without an adequate alternative to the Luftwaffe. Today we can't suddenly make fighter production lines as was possible with prop planes, we need to plan IN ADVANCE.



  Not according to our industrials developing Milti (three) bandwidth IR/Pixel-powered long range/all-weather cameras
together with the shape-recognition algorythms for the A2A role and BVR 50 g IR AAMs (MICA and in discusion a new seekr for METEOR).
 
    It's not all checkered black and white where the US have it all their way with EN L.O and Europe is backward with no technology to counter it, quiet the opposite.
 
    Today, European aircraft demonstrated HOBs tracking, designating and firing capabilties the US doesn't have today with a couple of world's first including one recently from a RAAF F-18 using an AMRAAM which have Link-16 (AIM-9X doesn't and a longer range as well.
 
    The physlosophy is not the same and given time, we firmly believe that EM L.O is only going to be really useful in the A2G role, where one can use the relief to hide from ground-based defenses, because unless one flies form one cloud to another, passive tracking and targeting using long range IR AAMs is going to beat EM stealth sooner than later.
 
   It actually does so today, it is only still too VMC limited.
 
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Wingman       7/27/2009 3:56:04 PM

 So, if anyone could comment on that or post a link, I'd appreciate...

So far F-22 doesn't have Link-16, i still might be proven wrong with a very recent news update but it is an issue...
   BTW, Rafale demonstrated a 180* kill with a MICA using Link-16 target datas froim another Rafale in June 2007.
link
 
On 11th June 2007, MBDAs MICA multi-mission air-to-air missile successfully destroyed its intended target following launch from an operational French Air Force Rafale F2 aircraft.

The firing, part of an ongoing training programme being carried out by French Air Force pilots with MICA, took place at the DGAs CELM missile launch test facility at Biscarrosse off the south west Atlantic coast of France.

For this latest firing, a complex combat scenario was created with a Rafale pilot being chased and threatened by an enemy aircraft (actually a C22 drone) approaching at a distance of several nautical miles from its rear sector. A second Rafale, acting as wingman, acquired the target and provided target designation information to the first aircraft via the Link 16 data link.

On being launched, MICA carried out an extremely sharp 180° manoeuvre in its inertial guidance phase, a manoeuvre made possible by the missiles exceptional agility provided by its thrust vector control feature. MICA then advanced towards the designated target which it destroyed. The MICA missile used during this training session was the RF variant, featuring an electromagnetic active seeker.

Patrick Tramier, MBDAs Director of Programmes, said: This latest success proves MICAs extreme efficiency in carrying out an out of sector self defence role with target data provided by a support aircraft. It is just one of a series of successful tests within the current training campaign which has shown MICAs exceptional performance against targets flying at different altitudes and speeds as well as targets carrying out evasive manoeuvres and within a countermeasures environment.

Notes to editors

MICA is the multi-mission air-to-air missile system for the Mirage 2000-5 and Rafale combat aircraft in both their air force and navy variants. Its high level of tactical flexibility is ideally suited to the latest generation of multi-role / swing role aircraft, providing both intercept and self-defence capabilities.

There are two MICA versions, the RF MICA with an electromagnetic active seeker, and the IR MICA with an imaging IR seeker offering tremendous tactical advantages in Beyond Visual Range (BVR) intercepts. 

link

Performance:

Multi target / multiple launch

Rail or ejector mount launch

Range:< 500 m to > 80 km

Speed: mach 4

Manoeuvring load factor: greater than 50 g

link
 
European premiere for the Rafale: fire "over-the-shoulder" of a missile Mica

On 11 June, the Center for military air experience (EHIC) from Mont-de-Marsan conducted a European first, and perhaps even global.

Under a fire technical-operational evaluation (ETO), an air-air missile Mica, fired from a Rafale F2, managed to shoot a target located behind the aircraft and continuing shooter.


After paa 180 ° turn, the Mica has killed its target, a target plane C-22, located in the "6 o'clock" of the shooter.

This shot, by far the most complex of a series of devaluation, is testing a unique combination. It involves two aircrafts (shooter and illuminator) and a target aircraft C-22.

The C-22 is positioned behind the Rafale shooter.

It has no radar contact with the C-22.

The Rafale illuminator operating at several tens of kilometers Rafale shooter and maintains contact through a combination of his radar RBE2 and Link 16 (tactical data link).

The Rafale illuminator makes the designation of the target with its radar and transmits its position to the shooter by Gust L.16.

It uses the coordinates transmitted to wedge the inertial navigation Mica EM (electromagnetic Self) and makes the missile.

The Mica enters the area designated by the coordinates, opens his Self, engage the target and destroyed more than the range of missiles for air combat short-range type of Magic 2, which could threaten the Rafale shooter.

In a real battle, the aircraft would have been shot down before they can fire their own weapons.


Photobucket
SOURCE MBDA


The firing involves a unique combination of specific detection and transmission of the coordinates of the target by an airplane and shooting at 180 ° radar without direct contact by the aircraft in jeopardy.

These tests, carried out by the Air Force and the DGA, tactical validate the relevance of the entire weapon system, which combines the performance of radar RBE2, agility of Mica and capacity for exchange of information of Link 16.

From an operational point of view, this shot shows that the weapons system brings a revolution in aerial combat.

The RBE2 and L.16 allow a Rafale to fire on the prosecutor when it isn't "hung" or even "swept" by its own radar.

The agility and acceleration of Mica allows it to be fired at 180 degrees, turning the hunter into prey.

In addition to this spectacular performance, progress relative to predecessors of Mica are numerous.

The only Mica, in both IR and MS versions, replaces the missile interception Super 530 and the close combat missile R 550 Magic II.

The Mica has a range twice the Super 530: 80 km instead of 40 km.

The "no escape zone" is largely increased and optimized, thus the task of interception.

Thanks to its "Fire-and-forget" multicibles capability, the Mica is much more flexible than the Super 530 radar-guided semi-active which requires the aircraft to illuminate the target to guide the missile.

The Mica, combined with the tactical data link L. 16, opens up very promising prospect.

Scanning and the designation of the target could be made by an AWACS or ground detection system.

In these configurations, the area swept by the radar is much more extended and the aircraft could start shooting missiles with a total electromagnetic discretion using Mica IR.

The firing is the penultimate in a series of 12 tests under the ETO Mica on the Rafale and Mirage 2000-5.

The tests already carried out had authorized a formal operational Rafale and Mirage 2000-5 of the Mica EM in 2006 and Mica IR (infrared) in 2007.

The tests now are moving towards the implementation of the Rafale F3 standard will include, in particular, the nuclear missile ASMP-A missile anti-ship Exocet AM 39 and a capacity for recognition with the Reco NG pod.

Sub-Lieutenant Yohan Law, Research in CESA
link
 
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Rufus       7/27/2009 4:32:37 PM
You have a lot of stuff garbled up there Wingman.
 
"Today, European aircraft demonstrated HOBs tracking, designating and firing capabilties the US doesn't have today with a couple of world's first including one recently from a RAAF F-18 using an AMRAAM which have Link-16 (AIM-9X doesn't and a longer range as well."
 
What HOBS capabilities are you talking about?  The AMRAAM and AIM-9x are both fully capable of HOBS shots, and unlike MICA actually have a helmet mounted sight available to make full use of their abilities.
 
I also don't know what an Australian F-18 firing an AMRAAM has to do with Europe... That is an American plane firing an American missile, conducting a demonstration with the help of an American company. 
 
Also, neither the AMRAAM nor the AIM-9x use link-16.  You are confusing your datalinks.  The AMRAAM has its own datalink, and that is completely different from Link-16.  The next generation of Aim-9x missiles that are going into production soon will also have a datalink, but once again, not link-16.
 
For more info on AMRAAM's HOBS capability see here:
(From 2002)

 

Flight testing of improved medium-range air-to-air missile gets under way

Raytheon will begin delivering a high off-boresight (HOBS) modification for the AIM-120 AMRAAM to allow the missile to take advantage of wide-angle radar and infrared (IR) sensor suites on the next generation of fighters. Meanwhile, flight testing has just started of the AIM-120 pre-planned product improvement (P3I) missile at the US Air Force's Eglin AFB test centre.

HOBS, unlike the AIM-120 P3I programme, requires no changes to the missile's hardware, but uses modified flight control software to permit increased manoeuvrability against targets to the side or potentially behind a fighter. HOBS has been developed using Raytheon funding, but the company has a contract to deliver the new operational flight programme to the US government later this year.

 

 
 
h*tp://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2002/05/07/147259/raytheon-develops-over-the-shoulder-amraam.html
 
"The physlosophy is not the same and given time, we firmly believe that EM L.O is only going to be really useful in the A2G role, where one can use the relief to hide from ground-based defenses, because unless one flies form one cloud to another, passive tracking and targeting using long range IR AAMs is going to beat EM stealth sooner than later."
 
Of course "Europe" doesn't believe anything of the sort.  In fact, only France even attempts to make such a silly claim, and then only because of "sour grapes". 
 
h*tp://www.bartleby.com/17/1/31.html
 
Most of the rest of Europe is already moving ahead with plans to buy the F-35...
 

"So far F-22 doesn't have Link-16, i still might be proven wrong with a very recent news update but it is an issue..."
 
The F-22 uses its own (extremely advanced) datalink to communicate with other F-22s, but once again, this datalink is not used to communicate with weapons. 
 
Because the F-22 is the only aircraft that uses its datalink, airborne communication nodes are being built that will allow F-22s to communicate seamlessly with other aircraft.  (and without compromising themselves)
 
h*tp://defense-update.com/features/2008/may08/F22_datalink_gateway.htm
 
 
Quote    Reply

Wingman       7/27/2009 7:49:13 PM
 The AMRAAM and AIM-9x are both fully capable of HOBS shots, and unlike MICA actually have a helmet mounted sight available to make full use of their abilities.

 No they are NOT.
 
  HOB and HOBS are two different things, you really think that AAMs aren't ALL capable of high maneuvrability off the rail today?
 
  Bad news for you they are since Python IV and even Magic II.
 
  The capabilties i am talking about are not that of turning 180* in LOAL mode but well to follow a traking information to a designated  target situated BEHIND the shooter.
 
  All what the USA have demonstrated to date is a 180* tracking capability of a target situated within the aircraft sensors before and at time of launch.
 
  The best hat was done so far is 90*.

Quote: "I also don't know what an Australian F-18 firing an AMRAAM has to do with Europe... That is an American plane firing an American missile, conducting a demonstration with the help of an American company". 
 Yes it DOES.  It wasn't AMRAAM but ASRAAM.
 
  It was not only a world's FIRST for an IR AAM but also a MBDA test-firing, i don't think MBDA is a US company just yet.
Quote: Also, neither the AMRAAM nor the AIM-9x use link-16.  You are confusing your datalinks. 
NO i'm NOT this is precisely the point.

In your haste for confrontational arguments you are simply mystaking capabilties, for the time being the technology you are thinking of is sitll in the labs and if one want to use a yet hypotetic "over the shoulder" capability, one have to track and designated the RIGHT target to the AAM.

Without datalink and a 360*X350* aircraft detection sensor capability, this HMDS HOBS capability is still not achievable.

Hence the use of Link-16 for remote targeting as seen with MICA and ASRAAM, a capability which the US AAMS doesn't posses today.

It means Link-16 datas canot be transfered to the AAM from the receiving shooter aircraft, this capability is envisaged for the AIM-9X but not integrated today.
Quote:  "The AMRAAM has its own datalink, and that is completely different from Link-16.  The next generation of Aim-9x missiles that are going into production soon will also have a datalink, but once again, not link-16." 

We all know that but apparently you are missing some bits here...

Quote: "For more info on AMRAAM's HOBS capability see here:"
 
  I suggest you study the subject more colsely and understand what this mean fully and come back when you have something on the first test-firing demonstrating the full capability, in a few years.
Of course "Europe" doesn't believe anything of the sort.  In fact, only France even attempts to make such a silly claim, and then only because of "sour grapes".  [linked image] 
 Being openly provocative with a hint of bigotry on top doesn't make your case...


Quote: Most of the rest of Europe is already moving ahead with plans to buy the F-35...

Most of those who doesn't have the aerospacial industry of Sweeden and France is the phrase you are looking for...
Quote: The F-22 uses its own (extremely advanced) datalink to communicate with other F-22s, but once again, this datalink is not used to communicate with weapons. 

  AGAIN you are not making your case here, you ignore the reality of technology.
  
  So far, F-22 nor ANY other US aircraft for that matter have demonstrated equivalent capabilties to those achived in Europe.
 
  Link-16 remote targeting of a target situated 180* BEHIND the shooter and there is a good reason for this, HOBS is only possible in LOAL mode meaning you can't fire in a fureball or else you might just kill your wingman.   
Get the drift now?

Quote: Because the F-22 is the only aircraft that uses its datalink, airborne communication nodes are being built that will allow F-22s to communicate seamlessly with other aircraft.  (and without compromising themselves)

This, mister, is beggining to look very much like blind copy/pasting, the point being tracking and designation of a target over a 360*X360* envelop from the shooter,.

Whatever WAY it is achieved, with its own sensors (Not yet possible technicaly) or remotly, (Only demonstrated with Link-16).
 The daythe US demonstrates these capabilties we will know.  For the time being is you would spare us the links we checked hundred of time and look at the one you had no clue existed, this issue would look a lot clearer to you.
WORLD FIRST FOR THE RAAF WITH ASRAAM

In a world first for an Air Force and an infra-red guided missile, Air Combat Group (ACG) of the Royal Australian Air Force has successfully carried out the first in-service 'Lock After Launch' firing of an ASRAAM (Advanced short-range air-to-air missile) at a target located behind the wing-line of the ?shooter? aircraft. The firing was conducted from an F/A-18 fighter aircraft, at low level and typical fighter speed, at a target located behind the fighter at a range in excess of 5km. The result was a direct hit on the target. link

 

DATE:18/09/08
SOURCE:Flight International
Raytheon tests potential Block 2 version of AIM-9X
By Stephen Trimble

Raytheon confirms that a potential upgrade for the AIM-9X missile paves the way for a follow-on project to dramatically extend the range of the air-to-air weapon.

The company has started captive carry flights for a Block 2 version of the AIM-9X, which includes an updated guidance section, improved fuze and an added data link, said Raytheon business development director James Smith.

Installing the one-way antenna means the AIM-9X would be able to lock on to a target after being launched. This alone would extend the AIM-9X range to nearly beyond visual range, or about 12.9km (6.9nm).

Smith said he expects the USAF eventually to go further and install a more powerful rocket motor that could fully exploit the new data link capability: "Lock-on after launch implies there may be an interest down the road to increase the range."


The Block 2 concept remains in testing. Raytheon plans to complete 21 captive carry and three live fired tests, with the first of the latter starting in October. A production decision by the USAF is expected in the second quarter of 2009, with first delivery possible by 2010.

Meanwhile, Raytheon will select a rocket motor supplier and stage another flight test for a new, heavily modified version of the AIM-120 advanced medium range air to air missile (AMRAAM).

The US Missile Defense Agency has awarded Raytheon a $10 million contract to continue development, and funding could lead to a formal launch in 2010, says Thomas Keck, Raytheon vice-president for Air Force programmes.

Raytheon aims to deliver 20 copies of the new missile - dubbed the Network Centric Air Defence Element (NCADE) - before 2011.
link

 

 

 
Quote    Reply

Herald12345    ????????????????????????   7/27/2009 8:25:10 PM
Another Blue Wings?
 
Herald
 
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Herald12345    ????????????????????????   7/27/2009 8:44:10 PM
Oh by the way fanboy, the telemetry that the F-18 and the ASRAAM uses is US based tech.
 
ASRAAM and AIM9-X use the Hughes front end and a Raytheon data link (Since Raytheon bought Hughes the company makes the seeker too as well as the GCU. In other words the claims you make for a helmet directed sight (US via Israel) are done with US tech telemetry and guidance (RAYTHEON)? It also blows your case that the only thing EU on that BRITISH missile is the name of the holding company rhat acquired that Hawker Siddley missile when it acquired BAE Missiles.  .

From where do these uneducated kids come? 
 
Herald
 
Quote    Reply

Wingman       7/27/2009 8:47:23 PM

Another Blue Wings?

 

Herald




What's wrong with this guy?
 
  And is this topic subject the posters or  F-22 VS. Eurofighter?
 
  Because so far i have seen as much as mis-informed flaming as proper information and then, there is the small problem of their interpretation, like posting links on technologies in developement at their earliest stage and claiming them as already acquiered capabilities.
 
  I wonder if people are genuily interested on the subject of just here for trolling.
 
  Please stick to the subject, i'm not interested the slightest on your opinions on other posters, or myself for that matter.

   So for the time being, we will wait for the informations on full USA HOBS/HMDS LOAL over 360*X360* demonstrated capabilities until you provide us with them Thank you.


 
Quote    Reply

Wingman       7/27/2009 8:56:26 PM

Quote: From where do these uneducated kids come?  
 From a place where a world FIRST was achieved; now your turn...
 SHOW us a succesful test firing carried out with US AAM of a target situated behind the shooter at the time of firing. 
The rest is irrelevant, and my level of education also is, you sitll canot manage to enlight us and demonstrate how superior the US sensor and AAM technology is because it isn't.
link
Photobucket
SOURCE MBDA  link
SHOW us something else than technologies still being developed and never actually demonstrated in the USA. Thanks. 


 
Quote    Reply

warpig       7/27/2009 9:58:03 PM
I agree, Wingman, stick to the topic:  F-22 v. Eurofighter.
 
By the way, where does Rafale and MICA fit in this topic, on the side of the F-22 or on the side of the Eurofighter?
 
After all, to discuss anything not on that topic must be trolling... right?
 
See you in a different thread.
 
 
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XTC    F22 v EUROFIGHTER   7/27/2009 11:44:09 PM
Well now that the F22 has been cancelled, yes, read the news, it is funny to read all the american patriots blindly spouting their own government's propaganda here... and there is definately an overwhelming stench of hipocrasy here also - like what is the very first thing yanks do when they actually make money ? They go and buy a european car like a BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc. Why? Because everyone knows that european technology is superior, always has been, and the same applies to fighter aircraft.
 
Who in their right mind is going to buy a Lincoln dinosaur when for the same amount of money there are Mercedes available that beat the crap out of any american made autos. Same goes with aircraft....
 
The Eurofighter wins, Airbus wins, american technology sucks big time.... like when was the last time you bought a television made in the good 'ole USA?  Wake up dudes... if you want superior military or social technology then forget the USA...
 
Have nice day....
 
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