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Subject: F-22 VS. Eurofighter
mike14    2/15/2005 2:24:35 PM
Who would win.
 
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HERALD1357    BECAUSE MICA DOESN'T WORK.   12/30/2008 3:21:28 PM

"I don't see Australia or
Israel lining up to buy the Rafale - and both were Mirage users - one
unhappy and one quite happy.  In fact, I don't see any Mirage owners
kicking the tires except India and the UAE.  They don't appear to be
thrilled either."

 

According to bluewing's version of reality... the Rafale is just the most amazing aircraft ever designed, and it carries the most amazing missile ever designed, and the most amazing EW suite ever designed, and the most amazing IRST/TV system ever designed.


 

Sounds pretty cool huh?

 

...but there is a problem...


 

Nobody seems to agree with him.

 

Even France has cut its production rate back to roughly 1 aircraft per month, a trickle that suggests even France doesn't know what to do with its wonder plane.


 

Despite France's best efforts to sell the Rafale, it hasn't gotten even a single sale.  Not one single third rate force has chosen the Rafale.  According to bluewings that is because the big mean US cheats and pressures potential buyers not to buy his favorite airplane... and yet the EF has sales... the Gripen has sales... the Su-27 has sales... even Chinese jets have sales... Funny how that works isn't it?


 

While I am at it... his wonder missile that is better than both the AIM-9x and the AMRAAM... has only been exported to a handful of countries  Why is that?  Is it the big mean US pressuring buyers again?  What about all the forces still operating the Mirage?  Why aren't they rushing to buy this amazing new missile?  Why aren't the various European air forces begging to have the MICA integrated onto their jet of choice?


 

 

And I've even told you why.
 
Herald
 
 
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flamingknives       12/30/2008 6:10:22 PM
 
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perfectgeneral2    Typhoon   1/3/2009 5:38:45 AM
Any chance of a full tranche 3 buy for the RAF after all the careful financial management of late?
The RAF* have been having a pop at carrier based, fixed wing, aviation again, so I am guessing no.
 
*rumours and back channels, all very deniable.
 
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HERALD1357       1/3/2009 8:25:20 AM

Any chance of a full tranche 3 buy for the RAF after all the careful financial management of late?

The RAF* have been having a pop at carrier based, fixed wing, aviation again, so I am guessing no.

 

*rumours and back channels, all very deniable.




I don't know.....but there is a fair chance that Typhoon will wind up as the air superiority fighter of choice for those who don't buy Sukhois and who won't buy American. In other words, South America and the PACRIM will be looking to replace many aircraft soon. Many of those air forces look to air defense and air interception missions as their first priority, and expect A2G to be secondary.
 
Some work on controlling manufacturing costs per unit and improve A2G weapons integration and the Typhoon beats everything out there in those markets' requirements except BEAGLE (end of the upgrade line for that bird) asnd Super Hornet (seriously compromised as a multi-mission bird with some aerosherll issues-Argentina would like her as would Brazil for naval roles, bit rememeber their anti-American bias.)
 
Tranche 3 domestic (backfits as well) is quite possible with some (two?) more good foreign sales orders. 1000 aircraft ordered or built would be the break even for it when it looks to replace Sparky as choice 2, globally.
 
Naval Typhoon from carriers is right out. The only way that happens is with a strengthened bird airframe; with a redesigned landing gear and catapult harness and arrestor hook.  

Bizarre remote outside possibility is that Typhoon will enter US service when we find we need to replace fatigued F-15Cs and we can't restart the Raptor line after that fool, Gates, shuts it down.
 
Even the USAF needs a good dedicated MANNED A2A bird for air defense with secondary A2G.
 
That isn't the SQUALL for us, and it isn't the real role for the Sparky for us, either.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
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DropBear    Herald   1/3/2009 7:46:51 PM
I don't know.....but there is a fair chance that Typhoon will wind up as the air superiority fighter of choice for those who don't buy Sukhois and who won't buy American. In other words, South America and the PACRIM will be looking to replace many aircraft soon. Many of those air forces look to air defense and air interception missions as their first priority, and expect A2G to be secondary.
 
I see Tiffy being bought by two types of customers. The first is the modern industrialised and wealthy nation who wants a sophisticated multirole platform that can plug and play with neighbours/friends, but who don't need a true all aspect stealth or deep penetration platform.
 
The other buyer (my own opinion) is the one that has always bought UK tech  (like the Saudi's) or has strong trade ties, hence they get good deals.
 
I can't think of too many Pacrimmers who could afford (at current exchange rates) a Tiffy in large numbers. The richer countries have snubbed it and it's fellow Euro offerings recently anyway (Singapore/Korea) etc.
 
If the RAAF could have swung a deal with 100 odd Tranche2/3 Tiffy's with CFT and fully integrated weapons at a price that matches the Oz/USA dollar value then I'm sure alot of folk here would be just as happy.
 
Now if we had 100+ SuperBugs.....mmmm!!! 
 
 
 
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HERALD1357    Dropbear reply   1/3/2009 9:37:59 PM
What about the JSDAF?
 
The Japanese are an island nation so the JSDAF faces a similar problem that the RAF faces.
 
India also faces a need for a good aircraft to face off JF-17s and J-11s. .  

I see the US trying to sell the Japanese the Sparky, but the Eurofighter consortium can tailor the Typhoon better to Japan's actual immediate air defense needs from its current Tranche 2 Typhoon (opinion).
 
India desperately needs a plane that can shoot down Sukhoi and Falcon clones. 
 
I don't see why so many are down on the Typhoon. Its a GOOD bird designed well to do what she's supposed to do. She is an air combat bird with a fledgling robust and growing potential as an A2G striker.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
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DropBear       1/4/2009 3:04:10 AM
 
What about the JSDAF?
 
True, I kinda forgot about them. Just thought that as they are an F-15 user and have indigenous platforms used from time to time that I didn't readily consider them as a potential Tiffy user.
 
The Japanese are an island nation so the JSDAF faces a similar problem that the RAF faces.
 
Like several other island nations with pesky neighbours too! 
 
India also faces a need for a good aircraft to face off JF-17s and J-11s. .  

I don't consider them a Pacific rim nation personally, so I didn't include them in my thinking.
 
Thinking more about South American customers actually and what Chile, Brazil, the Argies etc may require in a post F-5/AMX world. You are quite right though about India and their need of 126 or so jets.

I see the US trying to sell the Japanese the Sparky, but the Eurofighter consortium can tailor the Typhoon better to Japan's actual immediate air defense needs from its current Tranche 2 Typhoon (opinion).
 
Agreed. However, I wonder if Japan may look at tinkering with the F-15's like their overpriced / overbloated F-16 clone.
 
Considering the route Singapore went, and they don't need long range strikers anymore than the Japanese do. Intriguing.
 
 
I don't see why so many are down on the Typhoon. Its a GOOD bird designed well to do what she's supposed to do. She is an air combat bird with a fledgling robust and growing potential as an A2G striker.
 
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DropBear       1/4/2009 3:08:04 AM
To clarify...
 
I meant the way Singapore has opted for advanced F-15SG versions, not that they have designed a clone like the Japanese did with the F-16.
 
 
Sidenote: Anyone else absolutely fecked off at not having a most basic edit function on our posts?
 
Grrr!!!
 
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HERALD1357       1/4/2009 11:02:39 PM

To clarify...

 

I meant the way Singapore has opted for advanced F-15SG versions, not that they have designed a clone like the Japanese did with the F-16.

 

 

Sidenote: Anyone else absolutely fecked off at not having a most basic edit function on our posts?

 

Grrr!!!

Yeah. I wish there was batter read screen for the edit function.

What are the chances that a tranche 4 would include some more LO features and an improved  jet engine?
 
The avionics are fairly good for that bird as is the planned radar, so the engine and the aeroshell are where I look for an immediate update path.. 
 
Herald
 
 
 
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twindragons    not really   1/28/2009 8:09:34 PM
battles numbers of 3 to 1 matter little to the F-22 when has a kill/down ratio of 144 to 0
 
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