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Subject: F-22 VS. Eurofighter
mike14    2/15/2005 2:24:35 PM
Who would win.
 
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Herald12345    Arklight.   4/12/2009 6:32:14 AM
You are trying to data mine. The information you need is on the internet.
 
Go get it and stop demanding to be spoon-fed.data.
 
You know you do behave an awful lot like a PRC bandit.

Herald
 
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FJV    I put you through a grammar analyzer   4/12/2009 7:32:00 AM
As for the fanboy. I knew you were not American to begin with.  I put you through a grammar analyzer remember?
 
Then you were doing it the hard way and you were ignoring certain "clues" in my posts:
 
Just look at this thread: "http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/89-65048.aspx" 
 
"PS
 
By the way being Dutch and living in the Netherlands is also not a bad deal."
 
I never made it a secret that I am not American in the 1st place.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Herald12345    FJV.   4/12/2009 7:42:52 AM


As for the fanboy. I knew you were not American to begin with.  I put you through a grammar analyzer remember?

 


Then you were doing it the hard way and you were ignoring certain "clues" in my posts:






 

Just look at this thread: "http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/89-65048.aspx" 



 




"PS

 

By the way being Dutch and living in the Netherlands is also not a bad deal."

 





I never made it a secret that I am not American in the 1st place.

 

 

 





 

 

 

 







I was addressing, Arklight.
 
Reread that post. that comment clearly was aimed at him, not you. 
 
As for your concerns about American aviation (the Sparky), I refer you to your own government's findings.
 
 
 
So let's call it a misread and let it go.
 
Herald
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
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Lynstyne       4/13/2009 3:06:52 PM




Is this a wind up



 



all the OSF claims regarding stealth are now being a applied to tiffy and pirate. - is this BW having a laugh or is this a genuine british fan boy.



 



radar cannot detect heat



 



IR signitures can be masked and reduced



 



Radar signatures can be masked and reduced



 



Typhoon appllies this in limited amounts  F22 in shed loads.



 



Typhoon is an excellent fighter and is being developed into a good bomb truck.



 



The F22 thanks to thermal and radar signature managment, is the best BVR fighter out there Typhoon is arguably 2nd (perhaps meteor dependent)



 



WVR ill defer to others judgment the lack of HMS is a definate disadvantage.



 



iim ignoring support such awacs  elint etc since both will have the same support if there operating together and im not aware of any huge advantage in the F22 for data processing and managment.



 



 



Arklight please refer to scources other than Wiki  - and accept that the Tiffy is a very good aircraft the F22 is better in BVR even BAE accept this.



 



In fact the argument is not if its better but how much better. 



 



 



 








A bomb truck? its being made into a double standard craft, with its superior long range meteor missles unless you call meteor missle bomb? .....lol, no...and yes it is a good bomb truck as well with its future cruise missle loads and advanced bombs. Leaving the Raptor an unrequired piece of junk that can be left flying over the atlantic while Europe ends any future threat.

 

Oh please, the Raptor will never be top fighter because first theres too few of them and second its missle loadout is flimsy, they will end up getting shot down with their constant requirement to flee back to base for reloading....

 

WVR the Euro dominates massively as well, and it has higher survivability defencewise what with decoys and the like.

 

It amuses me that you ask me to rely on other sources other than Wiki when your buddies on your side of the oppsition to me have zero backup at all, infact at least Software is using aviation:

 

link
 

Euro beats F-22

 



Im no american Fan boy of the F22
 
firstly im not american secondly i dont believe its invulnerable and i would hotly contest it if anyone claimed it was (and i dont think DA Herald Et Al would.
 
I asked you not to trust Wiki as any one can edit it without any checks and balances - its a good x ref to other scources if you know its at least reasonably accurate
 
As for backing up as a qualified aircraft engineer (avionics) i feel that whilst no expert i do at least have a clue what im talking about
 
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cwDeici       4/14/2009 5:09:06 AM
Noone here is claiming the 22 is invulnerable, just that it is by far the best in air-to-air.
 
Please explain why so many allied governments are screaming and clawing for a chance to get it in the far future?
 
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cwDeici       4/14/2009 5:10:28 AM
The F-22 would have far more orders if it were on the open market than the Eurofighter, despite being more expensive. And yet the US refuses. That says it all.
 
If you truly think you know better than all the experts in the world then you're a lost mind.
 
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Arklight       4/14/2009 5:22:20 AM
yeh right, well can you show me the evidence of this clawring and screaming?
 
 
And no, the experts telll us the Euro is typically better, through actual evidence, watch the evidence I provided on this page and previous. The F-22 is douched by the Euro....
 
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Herald12345    Ego amuck.   4/14/2009 11:46:40 AM

yeh right, well can you show me the evidence of this clawring and screaming?

 

 

And no, the experts telll us the Euro is typically better, through actual evidence, watch the evidence I provided on this page and previous. The F-22 is douched by the Euro....

How can you properly evaluate evidence when you don't even know how light works?
 
Anyway you are still a waste of time.
 
Herald.
 
 
 
 
 
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smokey       4/14/2009 12:58:06 PM

Arklight, let me start of by saying that I am a huge admirer of the EF and that I?m glad that it?s on the side of NATO.  It paired with the F22 and 35 will be a force to be dealt with. I don?t pretend to be an expert in the field of avionics by any means so I generally choose not to leave comment on a forum such as SP.  However, common sense has gotten me far in life, and I?m finding the comments that you leave to be more of fanboy wishful thinking than reality.  With that said, there is a lot of common sense thinking that debunks the majority of your claims:

 

·         The EF is stealth and can supercruise.  This may be true when the plane is flying clean but once you add external stores that claim is highly doubtful.

·         One of the YT vids that you cited referenced a possible engagement between the F22 and the EF.  Simply doing a Google search would show you that the F22 squadron that was supposedly engaged knew absolutely nothing of the encounter.  Please don?t get into a he said she said argument because that will get nowhere.

·         You marvel at the EF?s maneuverability, which I agree is impressive.  However, once again once you add external ordinance that will limit its agility. This would unlikely happen where the storage on the F22 is internal and near the fuselage.  My old high-school physics days comes into mind that the role rate of  an AC with weapons loaded internally vs. on the wings would provide a greater role rate and not limit its maneuverability as compared to an AC w/ external stores wing loaded.

 

I?m done adding my two cents.  I strongly suggest that you do the same.  You?re comments are not adding any value to this forum.  And, I?m not saying that I?m a fanboy of US goods. It?s just that comments like yours belong more on YT than here.   Sorry.

 
 
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FJV       4/14/2009 2:24:28 PM
I was comparing the F22 to the Eurofighter, now to me throwing in the JSF only complicates the topic. Because I do not wanna overcomplicate things, before you know we'll be talking aboute the Rafa..., I would like to stick to comparing the F22 withe the Eurofighter.
 
Now all of those advantages you have outlined for its protection against heat tracking, are you going to say the Joint strike fighter does not have any of these? take into account the JSF can be seen by the Eurofighter through PIRATE.
 
It's not the fact that you can see the F22 or the JSF that is important persé in my opinion.
In my opinion what is important is, Do you see the the F22/JSF first, so you get the 1st shot at your enemy, or does the F22/JSF see you first and do you have to deal with his shot.
 
The same discussion seems to be the case with radar cross section:
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon"
The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a clean configuration by author Doug Richardson, although no official value is available.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor"
In early 2009 Lockheed Martin released information on the F-22, showing it to have a radar cross section from certain critical angles of -40 dBsm — the equivalent radar reflection of a "steel marble".
 
The Eurofighter also has Supercruise and does not need thrust vecotirng, it has many very large canards and is designed as the most manouverable and agile aircraft, it also has the most sophisted pilot interface, anyone worth their salt understands that the machine is not the only factor in combat , the pilot as their ease of control of the plane is just as if not more so important as shown by the following video:
 
From what I've read the thrust vectoring on the F22 is not all that usefull for dogfighting. The real reason for thrust vectoring is to be able to maneuver during supercruise, without the drag of using large control surfaces. And for low speed maneuvers, which is not a good idea in a dogfight (energy). The Eurofighter would have to use the large (I guess less efficient control) surfaces during supercruise when compared to thrust vectoring.

There seems to have been paid a lot of attention to pilot ergonomics for the F22 in my opinion. I base this on the fact that the F22 controls can be switched around for left handed pilots
 
I agree, although I dont think it comes close to fullfilling its price tag, America would have done better following the JSF project alone, they dont need the F-22 even if it does live up to their hype of it.

The shocking thing to you may be, that in my opinion the Eurofighter is also too expensive.
 
 
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FJV    PS   4/14/2009 2:31:34 PM
As for your concerns about American aviation (the Sparky), I refer you to your own government's findings.
 
"http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2212344.ece/JSF_likely_postponed_until_2011_or_2012%0A"

The Dutch government will likely postpone the purchase of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) until after its current term, sources say.
 
The three coalitian partners had originally agreed that a decision about the JSF, the replacement for the F-16 fighter plane, would be taken in 2010 at the latest. But on Tuesday sources in The Hague said the decision would likely be put off until 2011 or even 2012. In the meantime, only one or two test planes would be purchased. 
 
I have reasons for regarding anything that these jokers say with some suspicion.
 

 
 
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Herald12345       4/14/2009 2:50:49 PM


As for your concerns about American aviation (the Sparky), I refer you to your own government's findings.


 

"http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2212344.ece/JSF_likely_postponed_until_2011_or_2012%0A"





The Dutch government will likely postpone the purchase of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) until after its current term, sources say.

 

The three coalitian partners had originally agreed that a decision about the JSF, the replacement for the F-16 fighter plane, would be taken in 2010 at the latest. But on Tuesday sources in The Hague said the decision would likely be put off until 2011 or even 2012. In the meantime, only one or two test planes would be purchased. 

I have reasons for regarding anything that these jokers say with some suspicion.


Welcome to my world, FJV. My own government is so stuffed with liars, that I can walk across them to get from one office to another without touching a floor when I have to deal with them. 
 
Anyway, I don't see a charge to embrace the Squall which was the proposed alternative. As bad as LockMart is, and believe me they are not a management bunch I hold in high regard right now, they are better than Sukhoi and Dassault.
 
We ourselves are looking at the Sparky to see about delaying it, though some would claim that this is not so.
 
Herald
.

 
 
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Arklight       4/14/2009 6:56:33 PM

Arklight, let me start of by saying that I am a huge admirer of the EF and that I?m glad that it?s on the side of NATO.  It paired with the F22 and 35 will be a force to be dealt with. I don?t pretend to be an expert in the field of avionics by any means so I generally choose not to leave comment on a forum such as SP.  However, common sense has gotten me far in life, and I?m finding the comments that you leave to be more of fanboy wishful thinking than reality.  With that said, there is a lot of common sense thinking that debunks the majority of your claims:


 


·         The EF is stealth and can supercruise.  This may be true when the plane is flying clean but once you add external stores that claim is highly doubtful.


·         One of the YT vids that you cited referenced a possible engagement between the F22 and the EF.  Simply doing a Google search would show you that the F22 squadron that was supposedly engaged knew absolutely nothing of the encounter.  Please don?t get into a he said she said argument because that will get nowhere.


·         You marvel at the EF?s maneuverability, which I agree is impressive.  However, once again once you add external ordinance that will limit its agility. This would unlikely happen where the storage on the F22 is internal and near the fuselage.  My old high-school physics days comes into mind that the role rate of  an AC with weapons loaded internally vs. on the wings would provide a greater role rate and not limit its maneuverability as compared to an AC w/ external stores wing loaded.


 


I?m done adding my two cents.  I strongly suggest that you do the same.  You?re comments are not adding any value to this forum.  And, I?m not saying that I?m a fanboy of US goods. It?s just that comments like yours belong more on YT than here.   Sorry.


 



 
I like how you say its fanboy wishful thinking when I am the only one to post evidence of my claims, so when you call me a fanboy with wishful thinking, you understand your calling the sources I have added, some of which are a lot higher in authority and credability than everyone on this forum.

Highly doubtful? hmm well its nice to know some peoples doubts I guess...I have many doubts on the F-22 "shrug"....
 
Well look at it this way, theres a lot of claims for it, theres an image of the F-22 and Euro on the same field if you watched the video, and Aviation reports it, its natural that an American pilot is going to say that when Americas supposedly best Jet is defeated.
 
External ordinance? are you trying to imply the Eurofighter was built to be manouverble when its unarmed only? ....
 
 
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Herald12345    Yawn.   4/14/2009 10:27:39 PM




Arklight, let me start of by saying that I am a huge admirer of the EF and that I?m glad that it?s on the side of NATO.  It paired with the F22 and 35 will be a force to be dealt with. I don?t pretend to be an expert in the field of avionics by any means so I generally choose not to leave comment on a forum such as SP.  However, common sense has gotten me far in life, and I?m finding the comments that you leave to be more of fanboy wishful thinking than reality.  With that said, there is a lot of common sense thinking that debunks the majority of your claims:




 




·         The EF is stealth and can supercruise.  This may be true when the plane is flying clean but once you add external stores that claim is highly doubtful.




·         One of the YT vids that you cited referenced a possible engagement between the F22 and the EF.  Simply doing a Google search would show you that the F22 squadron that was supposedly engaged knew absolutely nothing of the encounter.  Please don?t get into a he said she said argument because that will get nowhere.




·         You marvel at the EF?s maneuverability, which I agree is impressive.  However, once again once you add external ordinance that will limit its agility. This would unlikely happen where the storage on the F22 is internal and near the fuselage.  My old high-school physics days comes into mind that the role rate of  an AC with weapons loaded internally vs. on the wings would provide a greater role rate and not limit its maneuverability as compared to an AC w/ external stores wing loaded.




 




I?m done adding my two cents.  I strongly suggest that you do the same.  You?re comments are not adding any value to this forum.  And, I?m not saying that I?m a fanboy of US goods. It?s just that comments like yours belong more on YT than here.   Sorry.




 







 

I like how you say its fanboy wishful thinking when I am the only one to post evidence of my claims, so when you call me a fanboy with wishful thinking, you understand your calling the sources I have added, some of which are a lot higher in authority and credability than everyone on this forum.



Highly doubtful? hmm well its nice to know some peoples doubts I guess...I have many doubts on the F-22 "shrug"....

 

Well look at it this way, theres a lot of claims for it, theres an image of the F-22 and Euro on the same field if you watched the video, and Aviation reports it, its natural that an American pilot is going to say that when Americas supposedly best Jet is defeated.

 

External ordinance? are you trying to imply the Eurofighter was built to be manouverble when its unarmed only? ....

 
 
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Cola       5/27/2009 1:17:12 AM
 Halo guys, nice thread. Looking forward to read it completely.
 
In the meantime, I was wondering can someone answer a question for me?
A week ago, I found a news on Eurofighter GmbH site, that two "Eufi"s, Spanish and British, did a "unique AMRAAM firing", in which one plane acquired the target and the other one (with radar on stanby) launched via datalink, which eventually resulted in sucessful hit.

 Now, I was pretty positive F22 already did that, but anyway did some digging around official sites and forums. Well, from what I could find, it seems that F22 actually doesn't have that capability at present time?!
 
 So, if anyone could comment on that or post a link, I'd appreciate...
 
 Thx, Cola
 
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