F-22 VS. Eurofighter

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warpig 4/10/2009 2:35:56 PM

Lynstyne, I think you've hit on it. I had immediately thought that at last England had produced its own version of Bluewings, but I think you're right. Arklight showed up at about the same time BW stopped posting.

All right, BW, you've had your laugh. Time to lay off and come clean.

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Herald12345 4/10/2009 3:28:15 PM

All right, BW, you've had your laugh. Time to lay off and come clean.

I don't think so. Arklight is not showing up in the grammar analyzer as being anywhere near as smart nor with as good English skills as that Frenchman could use.

If it is Bluewings then I observe he might be banned for flying under false colors. Kind of like Necromancer's trick before I pegged him as HTJ, but that is a SYSOP call.

Whoever or whatever he is, he is not very good or very astute on the merits of this discussion.

In that, he shares with BlueWings a defective knowledge base, and incompetent presentation skills.

Shrug.

Herald

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Softwar Hmmm BW BS? 4/10/2009 3:31:55 PM

You know - you guys might be right. The same class (or lack therefore) of troll like behavior filled with speculation, side steps and misquotes.

I still wonder - BW did seem to have better manners (e.g. "Cheers" on every posting). Although, sometimes he used it more as a flip-you-off closing than a real wish for your good health. Still, I chalked that up to good parenting.

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Arklight 4/10/2009 3:58:22 PM

Its on you, Arklight. I've given you tons of data.

I can find? burdon of proof fallacy remember? go and find your sources and provide them, otherwise ill simply ask you to do the same and look through Aviation weekly and other sources to find the fact that the Eurofighter turns the F-22 to scrap.

I don't have tpo respond to your pleas for an instant education. I told you in the beginning if you wanted to know you'd have to do what I did for decades. Learn it.

Prove what exactley? I dont have to prove anything, youve provided a source that states Wikia is responsible for some bad grades, this is not evidence that the info on the Eurofighter or F-22 is not invalid, regardless, Wiki is a source, unlike you. You dont have to justify yourself? ofcourse you do, otherwise you may as well leave and have pretty thoughts of the F-22 beating thousands of Typhoons with its infnite super loadout or whatever you F-22 fans dream of, fact is, youve not got the evidence in this thread. Also thats very amusing, you add kid at the end, it seems your assuming age and showing your own insecurities thus outlining your lack of faith in your own knowledge to have to go so low as to use antagonistic language, although ill have to ignore that last bit "chief"

Wiki has to justify itself and it so admits in the articles cited. If you are unable to draw the correct conclusions that is your problem. As for "kid" I usually put people like you through something called a grammar analyzer.

Example.

The one I use tells me about what mental age the writer is based on his communications matrix idea concepts and thought chains he expresses.l There is dense context and then there is sparse. The readback I got was teenager.

Sorry sport but showing pictures of clouds does not help your assumption of the F-22 always being hidden in Cloud cover.....its engines are balls of heart, own up and admit that the Euro finds the flying heap of junk.

Sorry kid but the F-22 will usually operate ABOVE cloud cover. At 17,000 meters which is official US Air Force published data there are no clouds.

So you cant show me the evidence that supports your claim? ok, well the Eurofighter can actually go lightspeed and fires proton topedos, it even has the ability to fly to other galaxies when promted....but sorry, I cant show you the information otherwise we will be breaking the law....shoot!

The Typhoon has a service ceiling air to air of about 20,500 meters. That is after a zoom climb. You should be able to calculate absolute ceiling if you know wingloading and engine thrust as opposed to drag coefficient. Good check on your math skills kid. How much lift does a Typhoon have compared to the Raptor?

okie first one was pilot error so thats not any fault of the plane....

A crash is a crash. Ded pilots are dead pilots. You claimed there weren't any, now we find we lose two and you lose three. This is why yoiu are a kid. You fantasize, while I check my recall to make sure I have ot correct. I was surprised by the number of Typhoon landing accidents.; I thought it was a safer bird. Apparently the RAF still has pilots who like to belly whomp. Look it up, kid, a lot of Spitfires and Hurricanes were lost in the same way.

Test prototype was the one in Spain, not a fully tested version like the F-22 which crashed what? a month or so ago? if not less and actually killing its pilot....

The F-22s were test and eval birds, kid. The first Tiffy you lost was a proof of concept, every one since as far as I can determinejhas been a combat bird.

Among the many F-22 crashes and mess ups most of them are pretty pathetic tbh, youve managed to dig up a few real problems with the Eurofighter, all of which quite old, when theres many F-22 cock ups including its very recent crash. When the Eurofighter crashes this year, then you can actually try and defend crash rates.

Name the F-22 incidents and causes, kid. The Tiffy crash last May is not old and it was a bad one.

(SARCASM) You have to prove yourself to me, kid. As Warpig said you are all flash and no bang. Claims don't cut it.

Herald

Thats not an argument, telling me to go and learn it? ill just flip that around and go and tell you to learn that the Eurofighter wastes the F-22......not a good argument is it? no...

I just have to see your insecurities at having to use antagonistc tones and claims instead of real evidence and I know your a teen rooting for his favourite plane.

No we find that we lose one prototype due to the plane, thats it, the rest are pilot failures, if we take into account pilot failures then the fact an American guy will likely be flying the F-22 in this matchup gives the Eurofighter the immediate win?

Yes it was damn old compared to a few months ago.....

Get your own subscription to Aviation Week pal and look up the current working history of the AESA systems in the F-22. Or at least try and read some of the other postings about what an AESA can do to CAPTOR and the other 4 gen electronics (Pirate is just an IR camera idiot). I just posted a good couple of links in the F-22 thread on AESA.

The specs you cite are out of date as compared to the MARCH 2009 issue from Av Week - which is a McGraw Hill publication with a 60 year history. That is why I posted the latest info - the S-400 (another variant) is even longer ranged.

Of course I will fire my BIG HOT MISSILE at you - from above and behind - because you will never even see it coming until your tail warning reciever goes off. By the time you think of getting out of the way - the AMRAAM or Sidewinder will splatter your 4th gen Eurofighter into many tiny little pieces.

Do keep in mind - that your Captor radar will not detect a stealth aircraft at the rated 100 miles - again trying to explain simple physics to you is like trying to pound sand into a rathole. Your radar will be worthless beyond 1/2 that at minimum for detection only. The F-22 AESA will tell me how you are armed, and what you had for breakfast.

Show me your evidence?

The same source that you posted claims that the 400 missle may not even be deployed

No The Eurofighter has many defensive aids, look it up, "I am not here to teach", its decoy will take the first missle, then it will light up the F-22 with a boresight missle in the face.

As I said before, evidence, you kids are all the same, you have nothing but claims "sigh", how awful.....

Is this a wind up

all the OSF claims regarding stealth are now being a applied to tiffy and pirate. - is this BW having a laugh or is this a genuine british fan boy.

radar cannot detect heat

IR signitures can be masked and reduced

Radar signatures can be masked and reduced

Typhoon appllies this in limited amounts F22 in shed loads.

Typhoon is an excellent fighter and is being developed into a good bomb truck.

The F22 thanks to thermal and radar signature managment, is the best BVR fighter out there Typhoon is arguably 2nd (perhaps meteor dependent)

WVR ill defer to others judgment the lack of HMS is a definate disadvantage.

iim ignoring support such awacs elint etc since both will have the same support if there operating together and im not aware of any huge advantage in the F22 for data processing and managment.

Arklight please refer to scources other than Wiki - and accept that the Tiffy is a very good aircraft the F22 is better in BVR even BAE accept this.

In fact the argument is not if its better but how much better.

A bomb truck? its being made into a double standard craft, with its superior long range meteor missles unless you call meteor missle bomb? .....lol, no...and yes it is a good bomb truck as well with its future cruise missle loads and advanced bombs. Leaving the Raptor an unrequired piece of junk that can be left flying over the atlantic while Europe ends any future threat.

Oh please, the Raptor will never be top fighter because first theres too few of them and second its missle loadout is flimsy, they will end up getting shot down with their constant requirement to flee back to base for reloading....

WVR the Euro dominates massively as well, and it has higher survivability defencewise what with decoys and the like.

It amuses me that you ask me to rely on other sources other than Wiki when your buddies on your side of the oppsition to me have zero backup at all, infact at least Software is using aviation:

link

Euro beats F-22

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Softwar 4/10/2009 4:19:45 PM

Arklight... Does the fact that so many here - with such a wide variety of backgrounds - tell you that you are acting like an immature troll even bother you? Facts mean nothing, science means nothing, posted articles from good sources make no difference to you.

Your lack of understanding even basic physics is something which cripples your comments and renders them into a series of useless garbled messages. The fact that you do not know the program (Eurofighter), the components, the companies, their budgets, and their time-lines makes it a maddening series of useless garbled messages. Basically, you have an opinion and ninny ninny poo poo on everyone else. So why should I care that you are ignorant and want to remain so?

I would suggest that you do not denigrate the dead - the F-22 test pilot who died was a good man. He knew his business and was doing what he loved. Test pilots are a unique band within the brotherhood and they take risks to push what they are flying to the limits so that others will know and survive.

I have ended the lesson session for you - since you are going to be a clueless fan-boy. Instead, I will sign off with a word of advice - if you wish to continue posting - try getting a subscription to a decent publication (Janes, Av Week ...) and then read it first. As it is - your current attitude makes you a worthless troll - nothing more.

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Herald12345 I'm trying to be polite Arklight. 4/10/2009 5:07:37 PM

You don't know enough to even have a clue.

I'm convinced thast you are so full of yourself that you can't even learn when a helping hand is offered.

I don't have use for such.

If you don't like the data and the lessons, then kite off and go somewhere where you can fantasize with the rest of the kids. May I suggest this site:

Site.

It seems well suited to match your somewhat limited abilities. You should fit in nicely.

Herald

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Arklight 4/10/2009 6:19:58 PM

A few disgruntled F-22 American fanboys dont like my views and I am supposed to give a damn, yes if I was the same lesser age as you guys but ime not so young. I am here for information, facts and sources, I have been given very very few of any.

I should not remain ignorant if you debated properly, make a claim, give a source, back it up etc, but you dont. You make up useless nonsense, make claims and then throw in a strawman argument to make it look like your actually doing something.

Yes well I will take that as your concede, thank you...maybe the F-22 will actually prove itself in some area, or as simply a typical American propaganda tool.

You don't know enough to even have a clue.

I'm convinced thast you are so full of yourself that you can't even learn when a helping hand is offered.

I don't have use for such.

If you don't like the data and the lessons, then kite off and go somewhere where you can fantasize with the rest of the kids. May I suggest this site:

Site.

It seems well suited to match your somewhat limited abilities. You should fit in nicely.

Herald

I come on this site to have someone try and convince me that the F-22 is better craft than the Eurofighter in a 1v1 combat, I am given some half @ssed claims without proof and evidence and when I decide its not enough that claims are given, I am given many fallacies, including burdon of proof, and appeal to audiance (typical of American smothered sites who love their good ol' expensive junk), actually give sources like I have. Including to my sources, both are fairly equel by an American general, The Euro can find the F-22 and has beaten it in tests, and stop stamping your feet, jesus its like ime talking to 12 year olds..if you cant debate dont even try.

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earlm Hey Herald 4/10/2009 11:43:38 PM

Compare the posts made by BW and another guy named Gevaudan. My money says they're the same guy.

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warpig 4/11/2009 1:10:14 AM

Compare the posts made by BW and another guy named Gevaudan. My money says they're the same guy.

Actually, at this point I'm really leaning toward him being some PRC. No Englishman would butcher the mother tongue like that, and his level of antagonism really only seems to match with past examples we've seen from the Chinese Internet Brigade.

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Herald12345 Agreed. 4/11/2009 1:31:10 AM

Compare the posts made by BW and another guy named Gevaudan. My money says they're the same guy.

CONFIRMED. He's a standard propaganda bozo.

Herald

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Arklight 4/11/2009 1:26:17 PM

Propaganda? I thought we had already realised I am not American? but yeh, fine, what ever you wish to belive "woo one F-22 beats whole airforces! yay, red white and blue!

lol, but anyway, its obvious the maturity in this forum is far below the line I had first imagined and furthermore I am not going to get any worthwhile debate out of anyone here either, in conclusion the Eurofighter is a far greater aircraft and is more useful in more environments than the F-22 AKA flying junk, good day to you.

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FJV Propaganda 4/11/2009 7:23:48 PM

You could say that the guys here are "fanboys" of the F22. They see the F22 as the ultimate fighter plane. I see this a bit differently, though:

"http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-54363.aspx"

However, when I compare the F22 to the Eurofighter, then the F22 has a whole lot of small advantages that together add up to quite a lot:

- The leading edges of the F22 are cooled making the F22 emit less infrared.

- The hot exhaust gasses of the F22 are reduced by mixing these with the cooler outside air.

- The flat/ rectangular jet exhaust design also masks the infrared emissions.

- The shaping of the plane is designed to radiate radar emissions away from the source.

- The F22 is covered in radar absorbent material, reducing reflected radar emissions.

- The F22 has supercruise.

- The F22 has thrust vectoring

Each of these when viewed individually is not such a huge advantage over the Eurofighter, however taken together all those things do add up. This does not justify the ludicrous price tag in my opinion.

All I see are quite mundane design compromises combined with some neat tricks, however I do not consider all this revolutionary. If the Russians were really trying they should come up with a counter.

I wouldn't be suprised that if there were an inquiry, you would find that the brass have changed the specifications on the F22 so often that they eventually ended up designing/developing the same plane several times.

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Herald12345 Or you can say that sugnals and emissions management plus a better engine. 4/11/2009 7:38:14 PM

is a KILLER, FJV. An airplane lives or dies by its radar, and its altitude advantage these days, and on who sees who first.

We have public testimony of pilots in WVR range, who tried to get a missile lock and couldn't on the RAPTOR, tried for a gun shot and couldn't on a RAPTOR. They were outmaneuvered and "killed".

If LockMart was sent to the drawing board twenty tomes and told to tweak. then in the end they came out with a bird that beats the best the US has 198-2. And that two is hotly debated.

Typhoon is the second best air superiority thing flying. I don't doubt that. You want the expected kill ratios? I doubt you'll find those numbers, but I can tell you if we ever have to kill Saudi Tiffys the numbers will be very lopsided in the favor of the Raptor.

As for the fanboy. I knew you were not American to begin with. I put you through a grammar analyzer remember?

Herald

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warpig 4/11/2009 8:24:02 PM

Of course Herald is absolutely right, and I'm sure this has been covered 100 times on SP. The VLO of the F-22, and that includes IR reduction, is killer. Now combine that with the best radar in service, supercruise and much higher ceiling during combat, and the situational awareness from on-board and off-board sources to properly exploit those advantages. Everything about the airplane is either basically as good as the best found anywhere else, or else it is in fact better than anywhere else. It's no contest.

As far as I'm concerned, it definitely is worth the money we have paid, as it is an insurance policy that not only maintains one of the most fundamental aspects of our superiority militarily, but also the political superiority that derives in part from military superiroity.

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Arklight 4/12/2009 6:28:33 AM

You could say that the guys here are "fanboys" of the F22. They see the F22 as the ultimate fighter plane. I see this a bit differently, though:

"http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-54363.aspx"

However, when I compare the F22 to the Eurofighter, then the F22 has a whole lot of small advantages that together add up to quite a lot:

- The leading edges of the F22 are cooled making the F22 emit less infrared.

- The hot exhaust gasses of the F22 are reduced by mixing these with the cooler outside air.

- The flat/ rectangular jet exhaust design also masks the infrared emissions.

- The shaping of the plane is designed to radiate radar emissions away from the source.

- The F22 is covered in radar absorbent material, reducing reflected radar emissions.

- The F22 has supercruise.

- The F22 has thrust vectoring

All I see are quite mundane design compromises combined with some neat tricks, however I do not consider all this revolutionary. If the Russians were really trying they should come up with a counter.

Ofcourse they would, their Americans, what would anyone else expect other than undivided patriotism to their favoured American aircraft, I doubt even if more reports came out showing the Euro trashing it, other than those already shown they would label them as biased, fake or unfactual in some other way.

But anyway, this post of yours does not look childish or a fanfiction so I will reply to it.

Now all of those advantages you have outlined for its protection against heat tracking, are you going to say the Joint strike fighter does not have any of these? take into account the JSF can be seen by the Eurofighter through PIRATE.

The Eurofighter also has Supercruise and does not need thrust vecotirng, it has many very large canards and is designed as the most manouverable and agile aircraft, it also has the most sophisted pilot interface, anyone worth their salt understands that the machine is not the only factor in combat , the pilot as their ease of control of the plane is just as if not more so important as shown by the following video:

link

I agree, although I dont think it comes close to fullfilling its price tag, America would have done better following the JSF project alone, they dont need the F-22 even if it does live up to their hype of it.

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