F-22 VS. Eurofighter

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HERALD1357 Well Leroy, you were right. 12/26/2008 11:45:35 PM

Same old Blue Wings lies and same old Blue Wings recycled garbage,-some of it years old.

At Blue Wings. You don't dictate the terms of this debate, fan boy.

As always, I do.

Herald

Quote Reply

earlm 12/27/2008 12:44:45 AM

Herald & Leroy , you are just simply amazing ! I 've met few people stubborn but you top them .

All I 've been saying in this thread is founded and proven by all the available doc on the Net . We 've been through this before .

Again , your last post (from both of you) is only bla-bla , nothing else .

Where are your proofs ? Give us some thing to chew on , like some studies and decent links , them being official links if possible . Make a case and stop blowing hot air . Do you want me to give links to back up my sayings ?

I can easily but I am affraid to ennoy all the other posters as I have already posted the stuff many times .

In fact , you 're both pi**ing me off .

Anyway here are the links again :

Let 's start by all the FoxThree publications :

ht*p://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/defense/rafale/publications.html

There , you 'll find nearly all you need to know about the Rafale .

The Official Dassault website :

ht*p://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/defense/rafale/omnirole-des-lorigine.html

That 's only a very small bit about "generals" , if you want me to go in details don 't worry , I also have almost every link I need .

In short :

- the AESA RBE2 puts Rafale on top of its game

- The OSF+TV cam has not been matched in any operational fighter yet

Pictures :

h*tp://sistemadearmas.sites.uol.com.br/ca/irstfso1.jpg

On the left , an Airliner from 30km away (zoom on 3) , on the right a Rafale from 50km away (zoom on 5)

h*tp://sistemadearmas.sites.uol.com.br/ca/irstfso2.jpg

On the left , an aeronaval base from 35km away and on the right , a ship from 50km away (both zomm on 4) .

Do you both have anything like that to show me from a US fighter ?

- SPECTRA (besides being one of the most advanced ECM defensive suite) can act as an offensive jammer (see the FoxThree doc)

- MICA has shown some skills an AMRAAM and a Sidewinder can only dream of (180deg offboresight shot killing a 35km away target , behind the launching aircraft with tracking provided by another fighter) . Phaid is simply lying bluntly , MICA 's up-link works perfectly thank you .

- Rafale RCS is twenty times lower than M2000 (Dassault publication)

- Rafale has most probably the best FBW system worldwide (the M2000 already had with more than 2 millions flight hours without an incident)

- Rafale sensor fusion , core architecture and pit management is superior to any fighter flying right now bare the F-22

- Rafale has a unique and unmatched A2G weapon with the AASM

- Rafale is the only aircraft not to have been shotdown during the latest RedFlag

- Rafale is easily in the top three for the best interceptor and dogfighter

- Rafale has the best single revolver cannon of all fighters (supeior to gattling as it reaches its maximum rate of fire instantly and with a higher rate of fire in burst)

- Rafale as a long range IR missile

- Rafale has one of the best climbing rate with more than 330m per minute

- Rafale 's autopilot , FCS and ECMs are linked together

Etc , etc ...

Do you still believe that the Rafale is a 4th generation aircraft ?

Please , comeback with stuff (if you can) instead of bla-bla ...

Cheers .

The TV camera is not very useful for searches. You may be familiar with the analogy of looking through a straw.

Having the best gun is like having the best biplane in 1943.

Climb rate is inferior to Typhoon and F-22.

Rafale wasn't shot down at Red Flag because French cowa

Quote Reply

leroy 12/27/2008 4:37:56 AM

The fanboy returns!

Despite crippling ignorance bluewings will defend his favorite airplane to the death.

First things first, I noticed you forgot your little writing assignment.... here it is again:

""Not the pit and certainly not the core architecture ."

As usual, I suspect you just don't have a clue what you are talking about, but I think it would be interesting to hear you elaborate on this statement. Please tell us, what do you mean exactly by "core achitecture," and how is the Rafale's "core architecture" more characturistic of a 5th generation plane? Think of this as a little writing assignment kid."

Now of course I suspect you intentionally ignored this because you don't have a clue what to say in response. Still, since you threw this out there I think we would all find it amusing to hear you try to explain what exactly it was you meant...

Moving on to the main body of your little fanboy's tirade...

Good for you! You found some marketing brochures! lol

Check this out: h*tp://tinyurl.com/a4rafu

The Edsel was a great car! Just ask Ford! (and who would know better?) lol

Or, for a slightly more recent example of the same...

"The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a combat-proven, 5th generation strike fighter with built-in versatility. The Super Hornet?s suite of integrated and networked systems provides enhanced interoperability, total force support for the combatant commander and for the troops on the ground."

Who would say the SH is a 5th generation fighter? Well... Boeing India of course!

h*tp://www.boeing.co.in/ViewContent.do?id=3263

The problem with you kid, is that you just don't know enough to make sense of what you are reading. You see the shiny pictures released as part of a marketing campaign, and don't know enough to see through to the facts.

Spectra is an advanced EW suite, but its capabilities are similar to those found on other advanced 4th generation aircraft, it is not an offensive or escort jammer. It is not a magic box that will solve all of the Rafale's problems in any mission. Anyone with any experience whatsoever would know that.

The Rafale's radar was obsolete almost the day it was released, which is why France is now rushing out a replacement as fast as they can. (As of the last I heard, France doesn't even have the money to upgrade their own planes, so all of the already produced Rafale's will remain crippled for years to come.)

OSF is obsolete and out of production, even France is no longer buying the system for their new Rafales. At some point in the future perhaps France will develop an upgraded system, but it isn't likely to be for a long time.

Mica is a lightweight dual role missile. It is better than the Aim-9x at BVR shots, and better than the AMRAAM at WVR shots. On the other hand... it is not as capable as the Aim-9x at WVR shots, and not as capable as the AMRAAM at BVR shots. That is what you get when you go cheap and try to avoid building two missiles.

Try not to be such an idiot kid, do you really think France cooked up this wonder-weapon you keep talking about, but that nobody wants to buy it? Take a look at how many countries are flying with AMRAAMs and then compare that to how many countries are flying with Micas. Even a kid, a smart one, should be able to figure out something is going on.

While we are on the subject of export success... where is the Rafale? This wonderful plane that just does everything so super well, according to our fanboy, has yet to find a single customer. If half the stupid things you said about the Rafale were true there would be a line of people begging to buy it.

It is stealthy! It has an "unmatched" A2G weapon! It is "easily" "in the top three for best interceptor and dogfighter."(lol, you do know those are two different sets of requirements right?) It has the "best single revolver cannon of all fighters." blah blah blah

... and yet its production rate has dropped to almost nothing because there is no demand for it. What does the new Frenc

Quote Reply

earlm 12/27/2008 1:54:23 PM

Let's see if a Fanboy can be educated:

Do these three things:

1. Finish Leroy's writing assignment.

2. Calculate an estimated RCS for Rafale given the 20X lower than M2000 figure, then calculate how much this helps against a threat radar. Explain why this is or isn't tactically useful.

3. Explain why IR has less range than radar for BVR missiles.

Quote Reply

warpig 12/27/2008 2:51:21 PM

Let's see if a Fanboy can be educated:

Do these three things:

1. Finish Leroy's writing assignment.

2. Calculate an estimated RCS for Rafale given the 20X lower than M2000 figure, then calculate how much this helps against a threat radar. Explain why this is or isn't tactically useful.

3. Explain why IR has less range than radar for BVR missiles.

Earl,

No offense meant; I'm saying this in an attempt at preventing you from suffering disappointment. To ask these things is to call into question your very sanity, since it has been well said that the definition of such is to repeat the same action and expect different results! We've gone over all these subjects, and others, with FS and BW ad nauseum, with no appreciable and noticable good effect.

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earlm To Warpig 12/27/2008 5:53:53 PM

The someone else should answer the questions. After all, it is a discussion board. I'm surprised the fanboys are still around, they take quite a beating.

I still say French fanboy is more educated, more intelligent, and more entertaining than Russian fanboy. I still hold out hope of French fanboy seeing the light.

Quote Reply

HERALD1357 12/27/2008 6:57:19 PM

Let's see if a Fanboy can be educated:

Do these three things:

1. Finish Leroy's writing assignment.

Core architecture is avionics package,, man machine interface, PILOT in aircraft to outside world communications and sensing, and how all that information is presented to the pilot to use and control. _{It involves a great deal more such as flight assists and machine to machine communiocation independent of the pilot} but the core architecture tells you HOW to build the plane information wise to do what you want it to do. (yes that includes the flight control system as well. A transport will not be aerodynamically unstable with computeruzed input correctors- a fighter will.) The fourth generation featured HUDS two channel fly by wire, and HOTASS. Sensors tended to be separate in formation channel and presented on MFDs. Fifth generation tends to COMBINE information in single set HMDs and used simplified flight imput and even mpre computer assist for such things as stores management and flight suipport -especially communications as there is a lot more machine to machine communication the poilot nmever sees or worries about

SOME fourth generation aircraft when they undergo an MLU and if their hardware plug and play avionics can support the upgrades are backfitted with some fifth generation features such as an HMD interface and the software rewrites to use it, but you can't reconfigure the entire plane to use a whole systems upgrade approach-inless you literally rebuild it. The French, because they were not as well versed in this systems evolution approach made serious design mistakes in the way they designed an upgrade path into the Rafale-especially in the plane's COMPUTERS.

2. Calculate an estimated RCS for Rafale given the 20X lower than M2000 figure, then calculate how much this helps against a threat radar. Explain why this is or isn't tactically useful.

Estimated? What aspect? You would have to do it for the six common aspects and do it both when clean and cluttered. Forget that! I'd need too much tome just to do it manually. Try a supercomputer. Anyway the lower the detection threshhild sensitivity a given radar has against your plane's return, the closer you can approach that radar before it detects you. So obviously the less returrn you register on the enemy radar, the closer you can sneak in and then wider the gaps in his coverage you can exploit. ANY reduction in RCS is useful if you know how to excplout with the correct tactics. .

3. Explain why IR has less range than radar for BVR missiles.

Seeker head can't see as deep or far and the IR head is more easily spoofed or degraded. Besides, the residual; energy left in the bigger and less agile rocket after flyout after a long coast and drop is practically much less for a BVR missile than for a WVR missile. The Deeper look is needed for that chase profile. The near sighted IR seeker is more suited for a short ranged direct look high residual energy chase missile than it is for an updated BVR IR missile coasting out on the last of its imparted energy..

There are other reasons but those three are the most common and well known.

Herald

Quote Reply

earlm 12/27/2008 8:24:26 PM

Go for the head on aspect for the joust which is the favorite scenario of fanboys.

The whole "totally passive" intercept sounds less appealing when you look at the facts for IR missiles.

Quote Reply

HERALD1357 12/27/2008 8:51:05 PM

Go for the head on aspect for the joust which is the favorite scenario of fanboys.

There is no such thing as a "joust" in a three dimensional battlespace after you make your first pass: not even if you are there all alone in your plane, facing his plane. I may be a bit of a purist when it comes to physics, and I may simplify a bit, but I cannot in all conscience argue a case that is that simplistically stupid.

Frontal aspect wouldn't do you much good anyway in a Rafale. That huge vertical stabilizer on that bird, with its exposed rivets and poor joins where the rudder meets the fin, is a guaranteed blazing radio return that even a Mig 21 can exploit to generate a fire solution for its rather primitive rockets..

The whole "totally passive" intercept sounds less appealing when you look at the facts for IR missiles.

The CONSTANT updating telemetry the IR missile requires to keep it properly pointed (from the launching aircraft's radar data no less) to get it CLOSE to the target as opposed to the intermittent updating that a properly workling RH seeker equipped missile needs, means that there is no such thing as a passive BVR IR seeker equipped missile engagement. As long as you are blasting radio at your rocket, you might as well use the superior radar seeker foir your rocket and give yourself a better offset interval. That means in simple English, the RH missile has a bigger drop basket into which it can fall than the IR seeker equipped missile. More room for time merge error for the rocket-unless you happen to be the MICA; in which case whether IR or RH, the missile suffers telemetry drop out, and goes dumb as a rocket propelled brick out of positive control. It becomes a MISSile.

Herald

Quote Reply

earlm 12/27/2008 11:52:30 PM

Note that some of the manufacturer literature on MICA emphasizes that the data link between the firing aircraft and missile is optional. Either the range is really short and/or you're supposed to fire salvos to try and get a hit. The missile was designed for export success anyway.

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