F-22 VS. Eurofighter

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Bluewings12 12/25/2008 4:39:57 AM

""Its what you were told for TWO years or longer by professionals.""

By who ? Which professionals ??? The only professionals I 've been talking to about the Rafale were 2 Pilots from the 1/2 Cigognes here in Dijon .

Oh , maybe you mean professionals internet forumers like you ? I see ...

Here is Dassault 's e-mail page :

h*tp://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/aviation/carrieres/rejoignez-nous.html

Go ahead and tell them that the Rafale is a 4th generation bomb truck with a secondary A2A capability , just to make them laugh , lol ...

How do you want me to take you seriously when you write such rubbish ?

Cheers .

Quote Reply

leroy 12/25/2008 7:26:50 AM

"It is strange ... You all dislike when I say something about the French fighter but in between yourselves , you all mostly agree on the qualities and use of the aircraft . I share your views too ."

What you don't seem to get bluewings is that I am not here to play stupid nationalist "my airplane is better than yours" games. The Rafale does offer a lot of really good capabilities. The only time you run into problems here is when you start acting like a fanboy and trying to insist the Rafale is something it isn't.

"That 's a pretty good answer but don 't forget that Rafale can play the interceptor as well (it has been design to replace the M2000-5 and to out-smart a Flanker) ."

It certainly can, as can the F-16 and the SH. There are only a few airforces in the world that can afford to buy dedicated air-to-air or interceptor aircraft. Everyone else simply uses a multirole aircraft for all missions. The US Navy had a big debate back when they decided to retire the F-14 and rely completely on the F-18 and SH. In the end they decided to go without a dedicated interceptor.

"Wrong (and useless bashing on the spelling) . Against a real air-defense Net (3 layers , C4s , OTOH radars) a low and fast flying aircraft can still penetrate as long as it has a decent ECM suite to quickly fool the short range SAM 's radars , a good flight-plan and the know-how ."

Flying low on a well planned flight path has certainly not become obsolete.(in that we agree) The only thing I have to add is that many, if not most, newer low altitude SAMs have IR modes as well as radar. It isn't bashing the Rafale to say that systems like the Spyder or SA-22 are bad news for any low flying aircraft.

"""In a hypothetical "big" war against a competent opponent the Rafale would have a very similar mission set to an F-16 or SH.""

Untrue . If it was the case , the FAF would have built an interceptor to fill the gap but they didn 't . Rafale is not only a bomb truck ."

As I said above, the F-16 and SH are also capable of acting as interceptors, as is the Rafale. None of the three would be your first choice as an interceptor if you had a dedicated interceptor available. That doesn't mean they wouldn't still end up putting in some time in an interceptor or escort role, but that wouldn't be their primary mission.

"Yep but Rafale is not a 4th generation aircraft . Its core architecture , radar , ECM suite are clearly 5th generataion ."

This is simply not true. The Rafale is a late 4th generation aircraft, with a design philosophy and features similar to other late 4th generation aircraft.

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Phaid 12/25/2008 8:13:14 AM

The French have been very cautious not to use the system for what it has been design for : an offensive jammer . No needs in Peace time and it is understandable

Again with the fantasy. Spectra is a purely defensive system. We've been over this multitudes of times, we know what types of systems Spectra incorporates, and we know what it is intended to do. Hell, even the name -- Système de Protection et d'Évitement des Conduites de Tir du Rafale -- says so.

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HERALD1357 CREF above fantasizer. 12/25/2008 12:36:23 PM

""Its what you were told for TWO years or longer by professionals.""

By who ? Which professionals ??? The only professionals I 've been talking to about the Rafale were 2 Pilots from the 1/2 Cigognes here in Dijon .

Oh , maybe you mean professionals internet forumers like you ? I see ...

Here is Dassault 's e-mail page :

h*tp://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/aviation/carrieres/rejoignez-nous.html

Go ahead and tell them that the Rafale is a 4th generation bomb truck with a secondary A2A capability , just to make them laugh , lol ...

How do you want me to take you seriously when you write such rubbish ?

Cheers .

I don't mean specifically me, since I know you haven't got a clue about me at all, but I mean men who not only know what they discuss, but know exactly what and why they say what they say.

Your ignorance is appallingly evident and your claims so wild that it is pathetic.

I happen to somewhat disagree with Leroy who is being kind when he suggests the Squall is similar to the Falcon. The latest block Falcon is probably still better than the F-2 as a multi-role aircraft. It, the Falcon, certainly has a better weapons interface and a more complete one as well as better avionis-especially radar and rockets. That doesn't say much for the thieves at Dassault or MBDA does it?

If and when those thieves sort out the MICA and work out the bugs in the RBE2 AESA you will have a decent A2A aurcraft that might be able to compete with a Super Hornet A2A. MIGHT, though, is the operative word. It, the Rafale, will still be outclassed by several other aircraft in avionics and weapons load outs. It still is armed with a crap rocket and relies on heavy external support to deliver actuve guided ordnance.

Now you may not like to hear that that tweety bird that needs all the off platform weapon guidance aid it can get and tht its current ESA radar is crappola on a biscuit, and that its future AESA radar still leaves its detection threshold considerably shy of a Sukhoi's or a BEAGLE's in the deep look, and that it is thus outranged at first look, and that the Rafale's A2A weapons (MICA that crap rocket)) means the other guy is likely to get first shot with his RH missiles, because the Rafale with its poor aeroshell and poor overall finish makes it a dandy radar target, and that the self protection jammer it carries isn't sny where near good enough to protect the bird, but them's the breaks.

I'm not polite about this, nor do I pretend to be, because with someone like you I don't want or need to be..

Like I said, in the possible force mix, the Typhoon is the A2A bird, and the Rafale is the BOMB truck.

Herald

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earlm 4th vs 5th generation 12/25/2008 2:21:18 PM

4th: T/W exceeding unity, bubble canopy, maneuverability at or approaching human limits, radar allowing real BVR engagements, ability to deliver guided air to ground munitions.

5th: Genuine LO, lots of time at supersonic, sensor fusion far beyond 4th generation.

Rafale is 4th, get over it. Most people can tell that by looking at the airframe. CD is the ultimate 4th generation planform. (If your aerodynamics got stuck in the early to mid-80's).

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Bluewings12 12/25/2008 6:48:56 PM

Leroy , I am glad that we agree on most of the points , at last . You had the intelligence to answer in a positive manner and I had the intelligence not to look for a "word fight" again . Must be Christmas magic ...

""The only time you run into problems here is when you start acting like a fanboy and trying to insist the Rafale is something it isn't.""

I never do nowadays because the Rafale starts to be known .

""It isn't bashing the Rafale to say that systems like the Spyder or SA-22 are bad news for any low flying aircraft. ""

I agree but since you know of the systems , you must also know that the SA-22 missile is not fitted with any kind of seeker to keep target engagement costs low . The system relies entirely on 2 things : its radar who can be jammed and its electro-optical channel , which can 't be jammed . Tough nut to crack ... Luckily the system must use its radar first for a long range (35km) detection . An aircraft with a good ECM suite could jam it , then change its flight plan on the fly to avoid the short range electro-optical tracking . That is possible .

""As I said above, the F-16 and SH are also capable of acting as interceptors, as is the Rafale. None of the three would be your first choice as an interceptor if you had a dedicated interceptor available.""

This is where you start to make the mistake to see the Rafale for what it is not : a poor interceptor .

You are not the only one , the most wrong people around is Herald . I 'll give him some stick in a moment or two .

Most people on this tread believe that the Typhoon can be a pretty to very good interceptor , and rightly . It has the most advanced mechanical radar , with a better range than both French RDY and PESA RBE2 ( by at least 30-40km) . It has a good ECM suite , it has good missiles , it is an excellent high speed flyer , its acceleration is enormous , its pit is a good 4th generation pit and its Pilots are top notch . I wouldn 't be a Flanker ...

But it seems that you all think that the Rafale is inferior to the Typhoon in A2A . Well , I disagree and I am far to be the only one . I do not know if the Rafale is superior to the Typhoon in A2A (?) , but from what I know of the 2 jets , it is not far fetched . Rafale RCS is smaller and with its AESA , things look different . Then , Rafale ECM suite is more precise than Typhoon 's . Typhoon 's PIRATE is powerfull but OSF also is , especialy the TV-cam for long range visual ID .

MICA and AMRAAM have about the same range , MICA 's boost time is shorter (good for avoiding missile launch detectors) and it has a better end-game than AMRAAM . The Typhoon is in for a hard fight and I don 't even take the long range IR MICA into account (which the Typhoon is not equipped with) . If both aircraft have METEOR , it doesn 't change a thing . To be honest , any bet would be a hard bet .

""The Rafale is a late 4th generation aircraft, with a design philosophy and features similar to other late 4th generation aircraft.""

Not the pit and certainly not the core architecture .

Phaid :

""Spectra is a purely defensive system""

Spectra can also be used as an offensive jammer and you know it . It is not only able to jam an incoming signals through many bands (those coming from adverse radars or missiles) but it can also precisely jam (with 1 degree accuracy) any known target included in the flight plan and from a rather long way . If this is not offensive jamming , what is it ?

The target might be emiting , or not , it doesn 't change a thing . As soon as the adverse radar will be "on" , all it will get is white noise . I would rather have a real LO aircraft to go with the ECM suite but Hey , we are not as rich as the USA .

Herald , unless you 're a high up from Thales , Dassault or the FAF , you know sh*t about our latest AESA RBE2 which just went into production . Only the Swiss AF has seen the final product and for 20 hours only .

Then , I think you should also stop your BS about the MICA . No-one is swallowing your crap anyway ...

""the Falcon, certainly has

Quote Reply

HERALD1357 Fanboy reply 3 12/25/2008 10:43:50 PM

""The only time you run into
problems here is when you start acting like a fanboy and trying to
insist the Rafale is something it isn't.""

(Note-truth is underlined , H.)

I never do nowadays because the Rafale starts to be known .

""It isn't bashing the Rafale to say that systems like the Spyder or SA-22 are bad news for any low flying aircraft. ""

The SA-22 missile is command updated and has a laser (jamproof) telemetry uplink. The rockets can be command steered into the target despite target aircraft self defense measures which makers the system incredibly dangerous.,

""As I said above, the F-16
and SH are also capable of acting as interceptors, as is the Rafale.
None of the three would be your first choice as an interceptor if you
had a dedicated interceptor available.""

This is where you start to make the mistake to see the Rafale for what it is not : a poor interceptor

You are not the only one , the most wrong people around is Herald . I 'll give him some stick in a moment or two .

The ECR-90 outranges the RBE2 by effectively 80% detection threshhold actoss the range of targets at most presented aspects and conditions- It also doesn't blast sidelobe noise into the skjy, a problenm still not fixed on the RBE2 PESA.

MICA and AMRAAM have about the same range , MICA 's boost time is shorter (good for avoiding missile launch detectors) and it has a better end-game than AMRAAM . The Typhoon is in for a hard fig

Quote Reply

earlm 12/25/2008 11:10:16 PM

I'm no expert on stealth but I can't see the limited LO features of Rafale having any major effect. Even ignoring the need for pylons, tanks, and weapons, there does not seem to be any RAM coatings or even a good finish to the plane. There may be RAM on the leading edges but that is a very limited technique.

Quote Reply

leroy 12/26/2008 5:02:36 AM

"Leroy , I am glad that we agree on most of the points , at last . You had the intelligence to answer in a positive manner and I had the intelligence not to look for a "word fight" again . Must be Christmas magic ..."

You are on the track to making yourself look like an idiot again kid...

"I agree but since you know of the systems , you must also know that the SA-22 missile is not fitted with any kind of seeker to keep target engagement costs low . The system relies entirely on 2 things : its radar who can be jammed and its electro-optical channel , which can 't be jammed . Tough nut to crack ... Luckily the system must use its radar first for a long range (35km) detection . An aircraft with a good ECM suite could jam it , then change its flight plan on the fly to avoid the short range electro-optical tracking . That is possible."

I suspect, as usual, you just went and looked up a quick bit of info on the internet and are now trying to pretend you have some clue what you are talking about. A system like the SA-22 is not going to be just sitting there with its radar on all day long. That is not a radar that is intended for general air surveillance. It would be lucky to track a small fighter 15 miles away.

In practice it would sit there quietly, doing nothing to give itself away. A point defense system like this would either need to be near the target it is defending, or placed somewhere the enemy expects you might try to fly. (Places they know they have low level gaps in their coverage.) It would wait until alerted that a threat was almost on top of it before going active, if it went active at all. The fact that you don't know this... again... shows you just don't have a clue what you are talking about.

"This is where you start to make the mistake to see the Rafale for what it is not : a poor interceptor .

You are not the only one , the most wrong people around is Herald . I 'll give him some stick in a moment or two ."

Bluewings, the Rafale was not designed to be an interceptor. As I said before that doesn't mean it can't play that role if needed, but it is not going to be your first choice if you have an actual interceptor available. When aircraft are designed certain trade-offs must be made.(yes, even in France) France decided it wanted a smaller aircraft, better suited to carrier operations, multi-role missions, and the export market. Those decisisions required trade-offs that limit the Rafale's potential as an interceptor. I fully expect you to respond to this with your usual childish BS. Save your breath.

"MICA and AMRAAM have about the same range , MICA 's boost time is shorter (good for avoiding missile launch detectors) and it has a better end-game than AMRAAM ."

You are simply completely wrong kid, but as usual I don't expect reason to have any effect on you. I have gone over this with you before and if you haven't learned yet you just aren't going to. Don't go diving into subjects that are over your head.

"Not the pit and certainly not the core architecture ."

As usual, I suspect you just don't have a clue what you are talking about, but I think it would be interesting to hear you elaborate on this statement. Please tell us, what do you mean exactly by "core achitecture," and how is the Rafale's "core architecture" more characturistic of a 5th generation plane? Think of this as a little writing assignment kid.

"Spectra can also be used as an offensive jammer and you know it . It is not only able to jam an incoming signals through many bands (those coming from adverse radars or missiles) but it can also precisely jam (with 1 degree accuracy) any known target included in the flight plan and from a rather long way . If this is not offensive jamming , what is it ?"

Once again you just don't have a clue what you are talking about. Spectra is a self protection system. It is not an escort/offensive jammer. Don't bother making stuff up here, it doesn't work and you should know that by now.

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 12/26/2008 11:24:57 PM

Herald & Leroy , you are just simply amazing ! I 've met few people stubborn but you top them .

All I 've been saying in this thread is founded and proven by all the available doc on the Net . We 've been through this before .

Again , your last post (from both of you) is only bla-bla , nothing else .

Where are your proofs ? Give us some thing to chew on , like some studies and decent links , them being official links if possible . Make a case and stop blowing hot air . Do you want me to give links to back up my sayings ?

I can easily but I am affraid to ennoy all the other posters as I have already posted the stuff many times .

In fact , you 're both pi**ing me off .

Anyway here are the links again :

Let 's start by all the FoxThree publications :

ht*p://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/defense/rafale/publications.html

There , you 'll find nearly all you need to know about the Rafale .

The Official Dassault website :

ht*p://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/defense/rafale/omnirole-des-lorigine.html

That 's only a very small bit about "generals" , if you want me to go in details don 't worry , I also have almost every link I need .

In short :

- the AESA RBE2 puts Rafale on top of its game

- The OSF+TV cam has not been matched in any operational fighter yet

Pictures :

h*tp://sistemadearmas.sites.uol.com.br/ca/irstfso1.jpg

On the left , an Airliner from 30km away (zoom on 3) , on the right a Rafale from 50km away (zoom on 5)

h*tp://sistemadearmas.sites.uol.com.br/ca/irstfso2.jpg

On the left , an aeronaval base from 35km away and on the right , a ship from 50km away (both zomm on 4) .

Do you both have anything like that to show me from a US fighter ?

- SPECTRA (besides being one of the most advanced ECM defensive suite) can act as an offensive jammer (see the FoxThree doc)

- MICA has shown some skills an AMRAAM and a Sidewinder can only dream of (180deg offboresight shot killing a 35km away target , behind the launching aircraft with tracking provided by another fighter) . Phaid is simply lying bluntly , MICA 's up-link works perfectly thank you .

- Rafale RCS is twenty times lower than M2000 (Dassault publication)

- Rafale has most probably the best FBW system worldwide (the M2000 already had with more than 2 millions flight hours without an incident)

- Rafale sensor fusion , core architecture and pit management is superior to any fighter flying right now bare the F-22

- Rafale has a unique and unmatched A2G weapon with the AASM

- Rafale is the only aircraft not to have been shotdown during the latest RedFlag

- Rafale is easily in the top three for the best interceptor and dogfighter

- Rafale has the best single revolver cannon of all fighters (supeior to gattling as it reaches its maximum rate of fire instantly and with a higher rate of fire in burst)

- Rafale as a long range IR missile

- Rafale has one of the best climbing rate with more than 330m per minute

- Rafale 's autopilot , FCS and ECMs are linked together

Etc , etc ...

Do you still believe that the Rafale is a 4th generation aircraft ?

Please , comeback with stuff (if you can) instead of bla-bla ...

Cheers .

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