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Subject: F-22 VS. Eurofighter
mike14    2/15/2005 2:24:35 PM
Who would win.
 
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warpig       4/1/2009 4:02:19 PM
Newbie, since you've been posting here all of a couple days, why don't you just read a lot and post a little, since you are not going to find *ANYONE* here who thinks you are right, could find a dozen regular posters here who have demonstrated a knowledge and grasp of the subject of fighters who would completely disagree with you, and you ought to consider that in itself to be reason for prudence and circumspect behavior rather than demanding what amopunts to a complete (re)education.
 
Or you could just say, "I say I'm right, I made a case, now you prove me wrong with citation and verse, or else I've run circles around you logically and won the game"... and learn nothing, since no one here is likely to consider putting all the time and effort into explaining the whole litany of errors to you to be worth it to them to do so.
 
We already have one Bluewings on this site, and by *ALL* accounts (except for his own), one is already too many.
 
 
Quote    Reply

Arklight       4/1/2009 4:09:16 PM

Newbie, since you've been posting here all of a couple days, why don't you just read a lot and post a little, since you are not going to find *ANYONE* here who thinks you are right, could find a dozen regular posters here who have demonstrated a knowledge and grasp of the subject of fighters who would completely disagree with you, and you ought to consider that in itself to be reason for prudence and circumspect behavior rather than demanding what amopunts to a complete (re)education.

 

Or you could just say, "I say I'm right, I made a case, now you prove me wrong with citation and verse, or else I've run circles around you logically and won the game"... and learn nothing, since no one here is likely to consider putting all the time and effort into explaining the whole litany of errors to you to be worth it to them to do so.

 

We already have one Bluewings on this site, and by *ALL* accounts (except for his own), one is already too many.

 


Ime wrong because a few forum goers know more about planes than me? I should stop posting just becaus of that? this is a debate, as such you seem to be making several fallacies, and some crude claims all rolled into one.
Ill sit and ask myself a question, should I belive a few F-22 fans without any information or linked evidence, or should I belive the General of the United states who has flown both?...hmmm toughie
 
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warpig       4/1/2009 4:14:26 PM
Yeah... that's what I figured.  Have a nice day.
 
Quote    Reply

Arklight       4/1/2009 4:17:41 PM

Yeah... that's what I figured.  Have a nice day.


I will, thank you very much
 
Also do you troll these forums or something? you tried to have a  jab at a guy called blue wings as if your waiting for an amused crowd to pat you on the back, although this does indeed say volumes about your "maturity" and possibly "age" but would you please stop spamming this thread at least, at least Herald has an argument or two and sounds like he knows what he is talking about despite his arrogance nad lack of evidence, your just trying to "get" at someone (Bluewings).
 
Quote    Reply

Softwar       4/1/2009 4:29:21 PM



US radars are most advanced? irrelvent tbh although ive not seen evidence for said claim its unimportant, what is important is your evidence for the F-22 being tested against the most advanced US radars please.

  

Clearly you do not know enough about fighters to make an intelligent comment. 
 
The Typhoon needs an AESA radar and all four nations know it.  Thus, the reason why they want to leave Captor and go on to Caesar.  Captor is nice but it is a mechanical radar that lacks the power and EW/IW capability of current AESA radars.  Without an AESA the Typhoon will not make any more export sales.  As it is - the Eurofighter is outclassed in this critical area by F-15s, F-18s and the F-22.  As it is - it does not look like the Eurofighter will have AESA until Tranche 3 - some time from now.

Nations To Trade Typhoon Numbers To Secure a Deal
Aviation Week & Space Technology Mar 23 , 2009 , p. 33


A further area yet to be resolved is drawing a road map for the introduction of an active, electronically scanned array radar. The availability of an AESA will be a key factor in some export campaigns, including to India, while the RAF is also eager to secure an upgrade path.

Levels of support for an AESA to replace the mechanically scanned Captor differ among the partners. Italy is not particularly keen at present, since the radar would not likely be available until late T3A aircraft, and the country is disinclined to operate two Typhoon standards.


F-22 Design Shows More Than Expected
Aviation Week & Space Technology Feb 09 , 2009 , p. 24


The F-22?s newly revealed areas of overperformance include a radar cross section that officials will only characterize as ?better? than what was asked for. Pentagon officials have said privately that the desired signature from certain critical angles was -40 dBsm., the equivalent radar reflection of a steel ?marble.?

Supercruise is at Mach 1.78 rather than Mach 1.5. Acceleration—although company officials would not say from what speed or at what altitude—is 3.05 sec. faster than the requirement of 54 sec. In nonafterburning, full military power, the Raptor can operate at slightly above 50,000 ft. However, it is known that the F-22 opened its aerial battles at about 65,000 ft. during its first joint exercise in Alaska, apparently using afterburner. There is also a mysterious admission that the range of the Raptor?s Northrop Grumman/Raytheon active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar has a range 5% greater than expected. That means a cushion of an additional 5-6 mi. of detection range against enemy aircraft and missiles.

Ranges of the new lines of AESA radars are classified. But they are estimated at about 90 mi. for the smallest (aimed at the F-16 radar-upgrade market). The F/A-18E/F and F-35 (with radar ranges of 100 mi.) are followed by the F-22 (110-115-mi.). The largest is carried by the upgraded F-15Cs and Es (125 mi.). By comparison, the range for a mechanically scanned, F-15C radar is 56 mi. according to Russian air force intelligence. U.S. aerospace officials agree that an AESA radar ?at least doubles? the range over standard military radars.

When coupled with the electronic techniques generator in an aircraft, the radar can project jamming, false targets and other false information into enemy sensors. Ranges for electronic attack equal the AESA radar plus that of the enemy radar. That could allow electronic attack at ranges of 150 mi. or more. The ability to pick out small targets at a long distance also lets AESA-equipped aircraft find and attack cruise missiles, stealth aircraft and small UAVs.

 

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       4/1/2009 4:41:40 PM


I will, thank you very much

Also do you troll these forums or something? you tried to have a  jab at a guy called blue wings as if your waiting for an amused crowd to pat you on the back, although this does indeed say volumes about your "maturity" and possibly "age" but would you please stop spamming this thread at least, at least Herald has an argument or two and sounds like he knows what he is talking about despite his arrogance nad lack of evidence, your just trying to "get" at someone (Bluewings).

this is not a shot at you, but a suggestion that you might want to take on board prior to your next posting response.

I would suggest that as an example you do have a look at some of the Rafale posts because you will then be able to work out who does have some working background on air combat principles, technology and systems development.

you might not want to accept the answers, but I'd say that after being on these forums for a number of years, there are some posters you read and absorb, some you pass on by.  Ignore where they come from (because thats just a cop out to win an argument of  choice).

you don't always have to ask people to provide complete citations - the manner and quality of content in  their response shoul start to give off some clues as to whether they're up to it or wannabes.  The style of the wannabe's is usually self evident and gets pulled out for all to see in the end.

eg. I've worked on the contracting/consulting side of the house, I've been a systems seller and I've worked in procurement/project management.  I reckon I'm lucky because I've seen all sides of the  aviation "shop" - but, I am nowhere near able to explain in simple terms some of the relationships and technology relationships as elegantly as some in here.  Due to my work, I've been lucky enough to attend briefings on JSF, Shornet, Typhoon, Eagles and Mirages.  I've been able to get an education from speakers who are current pilots, some of whom have in excess of 6000hrs on various types.  Its always refreshing to discover what I don't know - and without beating a drum, I reckon I'm in a position to know more about disparate platforms and capabilities than a significant cohort of other SP members.  Thats not bragging - it's a fact of occupational opportunity.

Some of the people you are dismissing as trolls on here have more than a clue and although you seem to be fixated on standing your ground - for whatever reasons, their comments do come from a level of expertise that most will never get to.  again, thats a fact of life, its got nothing to do with perceptions of ego etc.....

Just a small note, I have been to a couple of Typhoon briefings - non US audience events, and the RAF pilots were certainly more intent on hilighting that the Tiffy was not remotely close as a competitor to the F-22.  Their comparisons were always against F15's and Super Hornets or Tornados.

This might be long winded, but take it in the spirit of intent - don't asume that people who disagree with you are trolls and just nationalists.  Some of us are way too old for that kind of wasted effiort.


 take time out to look at other posts, and you'll work out who are the gap fillers and those who actually do have more than a clue.  
 
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Arklight       4/1/2009 4:44:49 PM







US radars are most advanced? irrelvent tbh although ive not seen evidence for said claim its unimportant, what is important is your evidence for the F-22 being tested against the most advanced US radars please.



  




Clearly you do not know enough about fighters to make an intelligent comment. 

 

The Typhoon needs an AESA radar and all four nations know it.  Thus, the reason why they want to leave Captor and go on to Caesar.  Captor is nice but it is a mechanical radar that lacks the power and EW/IW capability of current AESA radars.  Without an AESA the Typhoon will not make any more export sales.  As it is - the Eurofighter is outclassed in this critical area by F-15s, F-18s and the F-22.  As it is - it does not look like the Eurofighter will have AESA until Tranche 3 - some time from now.




Nations To Trade Typhoon Numbers To Secure a Deal

Aviation Week & Space Technology Mar 23 , 2009 , p. 33



A further area yet to be resolved is drawing a road map for the introduction of an active, electronically scanned array radar. The availability of an AESA will be a key factor in some export campaigns, including to India, while the RAF is also eager to secure an upgrade path.


Levels of support for an AESA to replace the mechanically scanned Captor differ among the partners. Italy is not particularly keen at present, since the radar would not likely be available until late T3A aircraft, and the country is disinclined to operate two Typhoon standards.




F-22 Design Shows More Than Expected

Aviation Week & Space Technology Feb 09 , 2009 , p. 24




The F-22?s newly revealed areas of overperformance include a radar cross section that officials will only characterize as ?better? than what was asked for. Pentagon officials have said privately that the desired signature from certain critical angles was -40 dBsm., the equivalent radar reflection of a steel ?marble.?


Supercruise is at Mach 1.78 rather than Mach 1.5. Acceleration—although company officials would not say from what speed or at what altitude—is 3.05 sec. faster than the requirement of 54 sec. In nonafterburning, full military power, the Raptor can operate at slightly above 50,000 ft. However, it is known that the F-22 opened its aerial battles at about 65,000 ft. during its first joint exercise in Alaska, apparently using afterburner. There is also a mysterious admission that the range of the Raptor?s Northrop Grumman/Raytheon active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar has a range 5% greater than expected. That means a cushion of an additional 5-6 mi. of detection range against enemy aircraft and missiles.


Ranges of the new lines of AESA radars are classified. But they are estimated at about 90 mi. for the smallest (aimed at the F-16 radar-upgrade market). The F/A-18E/F and F-35 (with radar ranges of 100 mi.) are followed by the F-22 (110-115-mi.). The largest is carried by the upgraded F-15Cs and Es (125 mi.). By comparison, the range for a mechanically scanned, F-15C radar is 56 mi. according to Russian air force intelligence. U.S. aerospace officials agree that an AESA radar ?at least doubles? the range over standard military radars.


When coupled with the electronic techniques generator in an aircraft, the radar can project jamming, false targets and other false information into enemy sensors. Ranges for electronic attack equal the AESA radar plus that of the enemy radar. That could allow electronic attack at ranges of 150 mi. or more. The ability to pick out small targets at a long distance also lets AESA-equipped aircraft find and attack cruise missiles, stealth aircraft and small UAVs.


 




So what is your point exactley? Eurofighter is getting an AESA so claiming the F-22 having one is a leap ahead of the Eurofighter is pointless, unless you think ,considering it already has many vast advantages in front of the F-22 and is considered a masterful aircraft anyway, without an AESA, with one will make the F-22 look like a overpriced toy, excellent.
 
Fact remains, as my source points out the Eurofighter can use its radar to scan the heat of the F-22 hot little engines, stealth=means nothing. Besides have a gander throgh this forum:
 
link
 
Only a few pages but they all have good points and sources of the F-22 getting messed up by the Eurofighter.  
 
Oh and please go and find me a Eurofighter crash recently, I mean hell the USA already are down what? 2 F-22,s the later one is the biggest tragedy, not just because of the man who lost his life but because their "brilliant super jet" is obvioulsy unstable.
 

 
 
Quote    Reply

Arklight       4/1/2009 4:51:04 PM








I will, thank you very much




Also do you troll these forums or something? you tried to have a  jab at a guy called blue wings as if your waiting for an amused crowd to pat you on the back, although this does indeed say volumes about your "maturity" and possibly "age" but would you please stop spamming this thread at least, at least Herald has an argument or two and sounds like he knows what he is talking about despite his arrogance nad lack of evidence, your just trying to "get" at someone (Bluewings).




this is not a shot at you, but a suggestion that you might want to take on board prior to your next posting response.




I would suggest that as an example you do have a look at some of the Rafale posts because you will then be able to work out who does have some working background on air combat principles, technology and systems development.




you might not want to accept the answers, but I'd say that after being on these forums for a number of years, there are some posters you read and absorb, some you pass on by.  Ignore where they come from (because thats just a cop out to win an argument of  choice).




you don't always have to ask people to provide complete citations - the manner and quality of content in  their response shoul start to give off some clues as to whether they're up to it or wannabes.  The style of the wannabe's is usually self evident and gets pulled out for all to see in the end.




eg. I've worked on the contracting/consulting side of the house, I've been a systems seller and I've worked in procurement/project management.  I reckon I'm lucky because I've seen all sides of the  aviation "shop" - but, I am nowhere near able to explain in simple terms some of the relationships and technology relationships as elegantly as some in here.  Due to my work, I've been lucky enough to attend briefings on JSF, Shornet, Typhoon, Eagles and Mirages.  I've been able to get an education from speakers who are current pilots, some of whom have in excess of 6000hrs on various types.  Its always refreshing to discover what I don't know - and without beating a drum, I reckon I'm in a position to know more about disparate platforms and capabilities than a significant cohort of other SP members.  Thats not bragging - it's a fact of occupational opportunity.




Some of the people you are dismissing as trolls on here have more than a clue and although you seem to be fixated on standing your ground - for whatever reasons, their comments do come from a level of expertise that most will never get to.  again, thats a fact of life, its got nothing to do with perceptions of ego etc.....




Just a small note, I have been to a couple of Typhoon briefings - non US audience events, and the RAF pilots were certainly more intent on hilighting that the Tiffy was not remotely close as a competitor to the F-22.  Their comparisons were always against F15's and Super Hornets or Tornados.




This might be long winded, but take it in the spirit of intent - don't asume that people who disagree with you are trolls and just nationalists.  Some of us are way too old for that kind of wasted effiort.







 take time out to look at other posts, and you'll work out who are the gap fillers and those who actually do have more than a clue.  

 

 

 



You misunderstand, i asked Warpig if he was a troll for the reasons I outlined when I did so, Ime not calling "everyone" a troll, although claiming just because they "seem" to know what they are talking about does not mean I should not ask for citation, if they know what their talking about then they should know where htey got it from, they should use sources,links and information like I have, I admit I probably know nothing in comparison but since this is an argument/debate I will stand my ground until actual evidence is shown, fact remains, if the F-22 was really so much better than the Eurofighter, a General of the united states who had been with the project would not claim the Eurofighter so close or such a great craft if it simply was not that good and many reports and actual statistics can pull up a lot of F-22 weaknesses, which is why I need official evidence, there is a lot of rumours and word of mouth is not good enough.
 
Well our experiances obviously differ , I have spoken with several Eurofighter pilots and without a doubt they claim it better than the F-22, mainly because of manouerability and technology, ime sure an F-22 user would say similiar things, then again, General Jumper did not. And hes flown both.
 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       4/1/2009 4:52:57 PM
should I belive a few F-22 fans without any information or linked evidence, or should I belive the General of the United states who has flown both?
 
Aside from what everyone else has said, I'm not sure where you get the idea that a U.S. general ever said anything like that the Typhoon was in any way better than the F-22.  His quote from 2004 compared the Eurofighter to legacy USAF jets, not the F-22.  Here is the full article about his not-really-comparing the F-22 to the Typhoon:
Jumper flies Eurofighter
by Staff Sgt. C. Todd Lopez
Air Force Print News

3/22/2005 - WASHINGTON -- The Air Force chief of staff added to his 5,000-plus flying hours with familiarization flights in both the F/A-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter aircraft.

Gen. John P. Jumper said the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. He is the only person to have flown both aircraft.

"They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance."

The Raptor is the latest addition to the Air Force combat aircraft inventory. The Eurofighter is a combat fighter aircraft designed and produced as a joint effort by several European countries.

Despite being designed for different missions, General Jumper said the Eurofighter and the Raptor are equally high-tech aircraft.

"The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high G forces), very impressive," he said. "That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc. -- all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive."

The F/A-22 performs in much the same way as the Eurofighter, General Jumper said. But it has additional capabilities that allow it to perform the Air Force's unique missions.

"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise," he said. "It has the ability to penetrate virtually undetected because of (those) capabilities. It is designed to be a penetrating airplane. It can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is."

General Jumper said he believes the Eurofighter and the Raptor will help America's allies and the Air Force each perform their part of the overall mission as they work together to execute the war on terror.

"We do things in a complementary way," he said. "We have been to war with our allies in Desert Storm, in Kosovo and more recently in Afghanistan and Iraq. We all have our roles to play, and the role of the U.S. Air Force is in many ways to kick down the door and make sure the airspace is available for people to do whatever it is they want to do in the air or on the ground under that airspace."

One advantage of having flown the Eurofighter, General Jumper said, is that it allows him to get first-hand knowledge of technology U.S. allies use and to see how America's handiwork stacks up. He said he believes the two aircraft are running neck-and-neck, but America must always be vigilant to ensure it stays on the cutting edge of aviation technology.

"You can see the technology that is out there compared with ours," he said. "You see the avionics and all of the great progress that has been made. You make sure you are not too complacent, because the technology that they have is very competitive with technology that we have."
 
 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       4/1/2009 4:58:53 PM
Well our experiances obviously differ , I have spoken with several Eurofighter pilots and without a doubt they claim it better than the F-22, mainly because of manouerability and technology, ime sure an F-22 user would say similiar things, then again, General Jumper did not. And hes flown both.
 
Oh good grief.  You are seriously attempting to compare private conversations with rank-and-file fighter pilots, to public statements made by a U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff?  The Chief of Staff is a public figure whose statements get reported in the media, he's not going to trash our closest ally's highest-technology airplane just to give internet fanboys a thrill, you know.
 
As far as pilot statements, there are RAF exchange pilots who have flown the F-22 and their comments on it were certainly not unfavorable, compared to the Typhoon or anything else.

 
Quote    Reply

Phaid       4/1/2009 5:01:54 PM
And look, since you're so enamored of pilot testimonials, here an opinion of the F-22 from a RAF exchange pilot who flies the F-22:
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       4/1/2009 5:03:05 PM

So what is your point exactley? Eurofighter is getting an AESA so claiming the F-22 having one is a leap ahead of the Eurofighter is pointless, unless you think ,considering it already has many vast advantages in front of the F-22 and is considered a masterful aircraft anyway, without an AESA, with one will make the F-22 look like a overpriced toy, excellent.

I attended a Defence briefing with a RAF pilot at a non UK defence establishment a few times last year.  One of them was attached to USAF and another is serving in RAAF.

The last briefing the former indicated that they would love to have an AESA ala F-22 but it was a budget constraint - and that it would be at least another 18months to 2 years.  The reason why it was being delayed was because they were comfortable that their only near peer red threats could be dealt with using existing systems.  He made it quite clear that AESA on the Super Hornets had a number of advantages over Tiffys existing suite, but as there were no red Super Hornets or Elmendorf Eagles then they weren't concerned.  This was a non US audience, so he wasn't playing the crowd.  In fact he was more than happy to barb the cousins (in a bantering way).

Open source is never the same degree of relevance as privileged source - it's not ideal as lots of lay people see open source as proof of life to support their arguments.  At some point though it's a useless yardstick to have a discussion with. 
 
Quote    Reply

Softwar    Arc what???   4/1/2009 5:03:55 PM
So what is your point exactley? Eurofighter is getting an AESA so claiming the F-22 having one is a leap ahead of the Eurofighter is pointless, unless you think ,considering it already has many vast advantages in front of the F-22 and is considered a masterful aircraft anyway, without an AESA, with one will make the F-22 look like a overpriced toy, excellent.
 
<< If you care to read the article - AESA for Eurofighter is NOT a sure bet - and no sooner than 2012.  That's late in the game and may not happen at all.  The AV Week article is MARCH 09 >>
 
Fact remains, as my source points out the Eurofighter can use its radar to scan the heat of the F-22 hot little engines, stealth=means nothing. Besides have a gander throgh this forum:
 
<< DUDE... radar has nothing to do with IR signature.  You are really clueless!  Stealth means everything and if you had any idea what you were talking about - it might help.  Geezz louise!  Heat signature is not a radar reflection.>>>
 
link
 
Only a few pages but they all have good points and sources of the F-22 getting messed up by the Eurofighter.  
 
Oh and please go and find me a Eurofighter crash recently, I mean hell the USA already are down what? 2 F-22,s the later one is the biggest tragedy, not just because of the man who lost his life but because their "brilliant super jet" is obvioulsy unstable.
 
<< The Euro has had its share of troubles - least of which is the unstable funding.  Its a fine fighter but not in the F-22 class.  >>
 
F-22 Deployments Show Advances, But Many Capabilities Still Undeveloped
Aviation Week & Space Technology Sep 03 , 2007 , p. 62

?I was the Red Air for some F-22s and F-15s working together against F-15s and F/A-18s,? says Col. Douglas Carney, the 18th Wing?s operations group commander. ?I don?t know what their plan was, but as Red Air, I didn?t see the Raptors on my radar all day, so I think their stealth works. We saw the F-15s pretty clearly, but I never knew where the Raptors were.?
 
Quote    Reply

benellim4       4/1/2009 5:31:59 PM
General Jumper flew the Eurofighter when?
Well, I don't know when exactly, but the quote "I?ve flown all Air Force jets, but none of them was as good as Eurofighter," was attributed to the good General on July 21st, 2004.

When did General Jumper fly the Raptor?
Well, I don't know exactly, but he qualified on the Raptor in January of 2005 after a two week course of instruction.

The sequence of events really does count for something doesn't it?
 
Quote    Reply

Arklight       4/1/2009 5:39:05 PM

should I belive a few F-22 fans without any information or linked evidence, or should I belive the General of the United states who has flown both?

 

Aside from what everyone else has said, I'm not sure where you get the idea that a U.S. general ever said anything like that the Typhoon was in any way better than the F-22.  His quote from 2004 compared the Eurofighter to legacy USAF jets, not the F-22.  Here is the full article about his not-really-comparing the F-22 to the Typhoon:



Jumper flies Eurofighter

by Staff Sgt. C. Todd Lopez

Air Force Print News



3/22/2005 - WASHINGTON -- The Air Force chief of staff added to his 5,000-plus flying hours with familiarization flights in both the F/A-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter aircraft.



Gen. John P. Jumper said the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. He is the only person to have flown both aircraft.



"They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance."



The Raptor is the latest addition to the Air Force combat aircraft inventory. The Eurofighter is a combat fighter aircraft designed and produced as a joint effort by several European countries.



Despite being designed for different missions, General Jumper said the Eurofighter and the Raptor are equally high-tech aircraft.



"The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high G forces), very impressive," he said. "That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc. -- all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive."



The F/A-22 performs in much the same way as the Eurofighter, General Jumper said. But it has additional capabilities that allow it to perform the Air Force's unique missions.



"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise," he said. "It has the ability to penetrate virtually undetected because of (those) capabilities. It is designed to be a penetrating airplane. It can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is."



General Jumper said he believes the Eurofighter and the Raptor will help America's allies and the Air Force each perform their part of the overall mission as they work together to execute the war on terror.



"We do things in a complementary way," he said. "We have been to war with our allies in Desert Storm, in Kosovo and more recently in Afghanistan and Iraq. We all have our roles to play, and the role of the U.S. Air Force is in many ways to kick down the door and make sure the airspace is available for people to do whatever it is they want to do in the air or on the ground under that airspace."



One advantage of having flown the Eurofighter, General Jumper said, is that it allows him to get first-hand knowledge of technology U.S. allies use and to see how America's handiwork stacks up. He said he believes the two aircraft are running neck-and-neck, but America must always be vigilant to ensure it stays on the cutting edge of aviation technology.



"You can see the technology that is out there compared with ours," he said. "You see the avionics and all of the great progress that has been made. You make sure you are not too complacent, because the technology that they have is very competitive with technology that we have."


 





Go and look 1 page behind....I give you a direct link to where he says the Eurofighter is better ,although thats not my main argument, my argumnet is that if the Eurofighter was far behind the F-22 at all in any area, the General would not have praised it so highly.


 
Well our experiances obviously differ , I have spoken with several Eurofighter pilots and without a doubt they claim it better than the F-22, mainly because of manouerability and technology, ime sure an F-22 user would say similiar things, then again, General Jumper did not. And hes flown both.

 

Oh good grief.  You are seriously attempting to compare private conversations with rank-and-file fighter pilots, to public statements made by a U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff?  The Chief of Staff is a public figure whose statements get reported in the media, he's not going to trash our closest ally's highest-technology airplane just to give internet fanboys a thrill, you know.


 

As far as pilot statements, there are RAF exchange pilots who have flown the F-22 and their comments on it were certainly not unfavorable, compared to the Typhoon or anything else.





What a worthless comment, who says he had to trash anyone? who says he had to compare any of the aircraft? hell he may have just said their both great planes or that the Eurofighter is a great plane and compared it to a F-16 or something, fact is, he did not have to say the things he did, he could have said something else or said their both good planes, instead he actually compared a few features and claimed both the highest in tech aircraft.


 
So what is your point exactley? Eurofighter is getting an AESA so claiming the F-22 having one is a leap ahead of the Eurofighter is pointless, unless you think ,considering it already has many vast advantages in front of the F-22 and is considered a masterful aircraft anyway, without an AESA, with one will make the F-22 look like a overpriced toy, excellent.
 

<< If you care to read the article - AESA for Eurofighter is NOT a sure bet - and no sooner than 2012.  That's late in the game and may not happen at all.  The AV Week article is MARCH 09 >>

 

Fact remains, as my source points out the Eurofighter can use its radar to scan the heat of the F-22 hot little engines, stealth=means nothing. Besides have a gander throgh this forum:

 

<< DUDE... radar has nothing to do with IR signature.  You are really clueless!  Stealth means everything and if you had any idea what you were talking about - it might help.  Geezz louise!  Heat signature is not a radar reflection.>>>

 

link
 

Only a few pages but they all have good points and sources of the F-22 getting messed up by the Eurofighter.  

 

Oh and please go and find me a Eurofighter crash recently, I mean hell the USA already are down what? 2 F-22,s the later one is the biggest tragedy, not just because of the man who lost his life but because their "brilliant super jet" is obvioulsy unstable.

 

<< The Euro has had its share of troubles - least of which is the unstable funding.  Its a fine fighter but not in the F-22 class.  >>

 

F-22 Deployments Show Advances, But Many Capabilities Still Undeveloped

Aviation Week & Space Technology Sep 03 , 2007 , p. 62



?I was the Red Air for some F-22s and F-15s working together against F-15s and F/A-18s,? says Col. Douglas Carney, the 18th Wing?s operations group commander. ?I don?t know what their plan was, but as Red Air, I didn?t see the Raptors on my radar all day, so I think their stealth works. We saw the F-15s pretty clearly, but I never knew where the Raptors were.?




Late in the game, to what? 3 years? were not in a world war or any major aerial combat yet chuck so hold your horses....maybe by then the F-22 will have some decent weapon systems,look and shoot and an almost worthwhile price, then again...maybe America will put their thinking caps on and ignore the whole project and concentrate on JSF.
I like how this gave you a hissy fit, "zomg you sedz radar wich is wrong!", your like a whimpering child whos found something they can hold on to, stop grasping at straws please, the fact is, F-22 stealth is blown out of the basket and the Eurofighter can track it, stealth means very little, especially when you do not have the right weapons to use it with.
 
The Euro had like one crash and that was an old prototype in spain years ago, its hardly comparable to things like pilots getting stuck in their cockpits for 5 hours, or very recent crashes that kill their pilots. Ofcourse its not in the F-22 class,its a class above, sure itsn ot got the same radar but it does not need it, its just swapped that for more weapons and the ability to carry high level A2G ordanance such as cruise missles.
 
Ok so the pilots were foolish, I mean what the....if a Euro can get a lock from long range and detect the IR signature, that still does not actually prove anything....
 
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