F-22 VS. Eurofighter

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HERALD1357 rAYT 12/19/2008 10:42:26 PM

Bash as much as you can I do not care .

I see that as soon as Herald spot the name Raytheon , the best part of a radar must come from them and the worse part from the poor french who cannot understand a thing . Well , that 's charming and very clever Herald , not . You really spit on everything as long as it comes from me , forgetting that you will look like a fool to the knowledgeable posters .

The HA-100 radar works as intented , you want it or not .

h*tp://www.twine.com/item/11cnb2mvn-48n/defense-technology-international-october-2007

Unlike you , I provide links and studies .

Leroy had nothing interesting to say .

Phaid , if it was me who said that the Rafale could go ""Spike, Grumble, two-four-zero at thirty"" , you would have jumped on me and ask me in which century I was living ! Radio is nothing new for God sake !

Then , you try to find some poor excuses about the link-16 versus verbal radio , wtf ??!

You said :

""The Rafale couldn't get anywhere close to the SAM site without being detected, unlike the F-22""

I agree , no argument here . Then you go :

""So what the Rafale would say to the Prowler is more like "Sam, sam, engaged defensive!". Not qute so useful.""

That is false , untrue and silly to say the least . You know better and I don 't understand why you cannot tell the truth here on SP . US Ego ?

One only have to look at how the Rafales did treat the SAMs at the recent RedFlag . Or they escaped them before to be in the SAM range , or they destroyed it from a passive shot with an AASM .

Back to the F-22 .

FJV had it right , ""It all depends on who will have the best electronic warfare"" . There , the F-22 is today in inferiority . Some F-teens are able to brake a missile lock with their ECMs when the F-22 can 't . Some would tell me that EM missiles have little chance to lock on the F-22 , and rightly . But if the F-22 is locked by an advanced radar , the jet has absolutly no means to disapear again through ECMs . All it can probably do is to try to power jam the emiter , allowing all the ECCMs in the vinicity to target the jammer . Of course , if the technology has been implemented on the F-22 through its AESA radar , which I doubt strongly . In any case , the F-22 has no ECM suite so far , bravo again !

Really , I don 't fear your futur posts ...

Cheers .

I gave a link, dummy. It wasn't exactly for your benefit as it was a remindert to others of exactly what an ignoranht LIAR you are.

I do mention Raytheon A LOT. One of these days you might catch on.

The HA-100 works exactly as described in plain English. LockMart was parading around a system called Silent Sentry that suffered similar limitations, If you want.to know who the real experts in this type of radar are, how about making a trip to Georgia Tech, cretin? They teach all kinds of weird and wonderful things at the North Avenue Trade School,-from how to build to specified design a multiNODE _{there is that word again!] passive radar system that WORKS, to how to push a mop properly..I suggest you try the mop pushing curriculum.

Look "tankboy" I already took you to the woodshed about EW, the ASTER, how rockets work in general, how telemetry works, I even finally ripped you a new one when you LIED about the Leclerc armor package- a subject where you claimed to be an expert and I knew I was not, but at the end demonstrated I knew far more in FACT than you ever dreamed in your Steel Beasts fantasies. Its just plain to the old timers here that you are a google boy who sees something on the internet an

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Phaid 12/20/2008 4:47:34 AM

One only have to look at how the Rafales did treat the SAMs at the recent RedFlag . Or they escaped them before to be in the SAM range , or they destroyed it from a passive shot with an AASM .

Even if this were true, you're still completely missing the point.

The F-22, even after it has expended all of its ordnance, is still a very useful asset because it can fly unchallenged into SAM envelopes. There, it can pinpoint SAM sites and hand off targets to SEAD platforms before the SEAD platforms can detect them on their own -- and, more importantly, before the SAM can detect the SEAD platform. Rafale simply cannot do that.

And, again, as far as this whole network technology nonsense you keep misunderstanding: the reason the F-22 does not implement Link-16 transmission is because Link-16 transmission requires constant emissions. It is not stealthy. A quick burst of voice communications, for all that you ignorantly deride it, is far harder to detect and impossible to track, compared to a network protocol operating over RF.

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leroy 12/20/2008 4:57:52 AM

"It all depends on who will have the best electronic warfare in my opinion.

I have a suspicion/hunch that there are future technologies possible for electronic warfare that could turn out to be more important than stealth."

     I think you are heading down the wrong path with this reasoning. There is no question of which is better, "stealth" or "electronic warfare." The correct answer is "both."

    The only people you see trying to argue that one or the other is preferable are fanboys who's favorite airplane isn't stealthy. The fact is that all operational US stealth aircraft have world class electronic warfare capabilities. It is simply not an either/or decision, and in most cases the approaches compliment each other. An aircraft that generates a tiny radar return is simply much easier to protect via electronic warfare than one with a large return.

"There , the F-22 is today in inferiority . Some F-teens are able to brake a missile lock with their ECMs when the F-22 can 't . Some would tell me that EM missiles have little chance to lock on the F-22 , and rightly . But if the F-22 is locked by an advanced radar , the jet has absolutly no means to disapear again through ECMs . All it can probably do is to try to power jam the emiter , allowing all the ECCMs in the vinicity to target the jammer . Of course , if the technology has been implemented on the F-22 through its AESA radar , which I doubt strongly . In any case , the F-22 has no ECM suite so far , bravo again !"

     The post above is a perfect example of the fanboy mentality I mentioned above. First off, so there is no confusion, bluewings is either an idiot, or pretending to be an idiot in order to troll. (Does it really matter which?) He doesn't understand what he is talking about and doesn't really want to.

     Because his favorite airplane is not stealthy, he will continually insist that it MUST have the world's greatest electronic warfare system. That way, any time someone says something he doesn't like about it on a message board somewhere, he can just make up a capability and attribute it to his airplane's magic "Spectra" system.

Going back to the stealth/electronic warfare question... Don't think for a moment that the F-22 is lacking in electronic warfare capabilities because it is stealthy. It would make a better video game if the F-22 had some obvious weakness that could be exploited, but that is simply not the case.

The F-22 has a world class electronic warfare system that is absolutely second to none. The details of the F-22's capabilities in these areas are very rarely discussed because of classification issues. The F-22 is a US-only product that is not offered for export at any price. Because of this, the US does not feel the need to publicize its capabilities in sensitive areas. It is better to let the opposition wonder. It is public information that its primary philosophy does not call for active jamming because such an approach is simply not necessary. Nonetheless, it has the ability to employ active countermeasures if necessary and that capability will continue to grow with technology or if a plausible threat emerges.

"NASHUA, N.H., 15 June 2006. BAE Systems has delivered the first production digital electronic warfare (EW) system to Lockheed Martin for use in the U.S. Air Force's Raptor #4084. The airframe, well into production, is slated for delivery to the Air Force in November 2006.
"Raptor pilots will be flying the world's premier fifth-generation fighter equipped with the best digital electronic warfare system available in any fighter in the world," says Bridget Lauderdale, Lockheed Martin vice president for F-22 product development. "BAE Systems' digital EW program is a model product improvement program that provides state-of-the art technology to the F-22.""

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Bluewings12 12/20/2008 10:06:22 PM

As usual when Herald is against the wall , he goes 'bla-bla" . That facilitates my task .

Make no mistake people , Herald never won an argument with me on Tanks .

My answer to him will be short : bla-bla .

Fortunatly for the discussion , Phaid is making sense .

""The F-22, even after it has expended all of its ordnance, is still a very useful asset because it can fly unchallenged into SAM envelopes."""

This is what the USAF says ~and no-one else~ and without any proofs , allow me to dare to doubt . The B2 has been spotted on radar over UK and over Europe and don 't tell me that is because it was emitting but because some radars can detect LO aircrafts .

""There, it can pinpoint SAM sites and hand off targets to SEAD platforms""

What with ? (pinpointing and handing off ?)

""before the SEAD platforms can detect them on their own""

Again , with what ? It 's radar ?

""Rafale simply cannot do that.""

Yes it can , since you know the Rafale well by following Airdefence.net , I wander why to say such thing ?

To put it simply , Rafale 's ECM suite and sensors can detect the adverse EW emissions before to be in range (that 's not new) . It can actually do that much better than the F-22 and I already said why . Rafale also transmit and shares datas quicker . Why do you have to call me on Rafale and compare it to the F-22 ? This is not the right thread .

""the reason the F-22 does not implement Link-16 transmission is because Link-16 transmission requires constant emissions. It is not stealthy.""

There , you make more sense . Nevertheles , it 's better to use the link-16 than nothing when you want to share datas with link-16 equipped legacy fighters , at least for now . In fact , it 's an excuse Phaid .

The F-22 is just ~as I said earlier~ un unfinished aircraft .

Let 's be honest here , just for a minute : the USA don 't need the F-22 as it is now . The USA have some much better aircrafts to bring to the enemy than the F-22 , a Viper Blk 60 or a SH Blk2 will do more dammage to the enemy by a long way .

The F-22 is the USA life insurance in the air supremacy for the next 15 years but for now , it is an unfinished aircraft to say the least .

""A quick burst of voice communications, for all that you ignorantly deride it, is far harder to detect and impossible to track, compared to a network protocol operating over RF.""

I agree but to this day , the Link-16 has been pretty safe to use . 2moro might be different ...

Phaid , beside its ability to fire first and to police the sky , the F-22 right now is only a very expensive tool .

On the other side , 24 F-22s with inflight refuelling + externals tanks (dropped prior enemy airspace) could archive air dominance in a busy sky rather quickly . I know ;-)

Unless they fly where they shouldn 't (Russia , West Europe , China) .

I am pleased to see Leroy saying to FJV :

""I think you are heading down the wrong path with this reasoning. There is no question of which is better, "stealth" or "electronic warfare." The correct answer is "both.""

Exactly and this is why I said that the F-22 is lacking because it hasn 't got both .

""An aircraft that generates a tiny radar return is simply much easier to protect via electronic warfare than one with a large return.""

Hurray !!! AT LAST !

Leroy , I thank you . At last you unconciently acknowledge Dassault/Thales thinking when they built the Rafale and SPECTRA . Now , re-read what I said all theses years with your newly open mind !

Unfortunatly , the rest of your post is just rubbish but luckily you end up with a something interesting . I would like to know more about that so-called "best d

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Bluewings12 12/20/2008 10:53:05 PM

Leroy :

""The post above is a perfect example of the fanboy mentality I mentioned above. First off, so there is no confusion, bluewings is either an idiot, or pretending to be an idiot in order to troll. (Does it really matter which?) He doesn't understand what he is talking about and doesn't really want to.""

Poor talk , really . You don 't answer to a troll , you ignore it . That 's what we all do . But when I 'm here , I get threads going to hundreds of posts so why that ? Because my posts are :

1) understandable enough

2) hot

3) well founded

4) controversials

And with modesty , I have to say that it works and what you call "american bashing" sometimes is , but only because you spit on some french stuff ;-) Am I honest enough :-)

""Because his favorite airplane is not stealthy, he will continually insist that it MUST have the world's greatest electronic warfare system.""

No , no ! Rafale has the best ECM suite Worldwide and that 's a fact . I don 't have to insist .

""The F-22 has a world class electronic warfare system that is absolutely second to none.""

Do you mean right now ??? Until you back up your claims , I don 't believe you .

""The F-22 is a US-only product that is not offered for export at any price. Because of this, the US does not feel the need to publicize its capabilities in sensitive areas. It is better to let the opposition wonder.""

(lololol !) Are you trying to prove your case with that ??? You ' re clearly mistaking .

""It is public information that its primary philosophy does not call for active jamming because such an approach is simply not necessary""

Wow ??! Wtf ??? If the people behind the jet are really thinking like that , they are not Americans !!! It cannot be !

The only other solution is the following : Leroy is talking out of his a$$ again . Why do you think the AESA radar jamming modes are working out if it is not for active jamming ??? You 're stupid Leroy ...

I stop here , I 'll better do ...

Cheers .

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Bluewings12 12/20/2008 11:12:50 PM

Since a lot of you are answering me , there are 3 solutions :

1) I am a decent poster

2) I am the best troll you ever met

3) you are as stupid as I am

Your choice ...

Cheers .

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warpig 12/21/2008 1:22:49 AM

"The F-22, even after it has expended all of its ordnance, is still a very useful asset because it can fly unchallenged into SAM envelopes."

This is what the USAF says ~and no-one else~ and without any proofs , allow me to dare to doubt .

Go ahead and doubt, who cares? Let everyone doubt, fine with me. When the time comes, they'll learn first-hand.

----

The B2 has been spotted on radar over UK and over Europe and don 't tell me that is because it was emitting but because some radars can detect LO aircrafts .

You are aware that when LO aircraft are not flying real-world operational missions, they deploy radar-enhancing shapes to increase their signature, aren't you? Even if they have been detected over the UK and Europe while in total LO mode, I don't care, and the reason I don't is because we aren't going to fight the UK and Europe. Only a total a$$ talks about the ability of NATO countries to engage American aircraft as if it's a serious consideration.

----

"There, it can pinpoint SAM sites and hand off targets to SEAD platforms"

What with ? (pinpointing and handing off ?)

With its ALE-94 ESM system and a simple voice call.

----

"the reason the F-22 does not implement Link-16 transmission is because Link-16 transmission requires constant emissions. It is not stealthy."

The F-22 is just ~as I said earlier~ un unfinished aircraft .

That's at least the third time just in this thread that this has been explained to you, and it's been the same reason all along. Apparently you're new to this knowledge, but we've known it for years. It was recognized several years ago that it would be even better than the great weapon system it already is, if it can also transmit data to non-F-22 aircraft, and it will. In case this is a news flash to you, I think I can guarantee that there will be other improvements to the F-22 over the next 30 years—just like every aircraft type that has ever flown has also undergone continual improvements over their service lives.

----

The F-22 is the USA life insura

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leroy 12/21/2008 4:08:48 AM

Bluewings, it never ceases to amaze me how someone could enjoy being made to look as stupid as you do when you try to post about military topics.

"This is what the USAF says ~and no-one else~ and without any proofs , allow me to dare to doubt . The B2 has been spotted on radar over UK and over Europe and don 't tell me that is because it was emitting but because some radars can detect LO aircrafts ."

Who gives a crap what you think? You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

As was already explained to you, stealth aircraft can intentionally increase their RCS when not flying war-time missions. That is like saying I saw an elite sniper the other day while shopping at the mall, he wasn't hard to find at all! If the aircraft isn't even trying to hide it should be no surprise that it shows up on radar.

The B-2 has a "stealth mode" that changes the way the aircraft uses its control surfaces and retracts certain other RCS generating devices within the aircraft. (such as lights) Look it up on google kid. If you didn't know this already you have no business trying to offer an opinion on stealth aircraft.(something we already knew...)

"Let 's be honest here , just for a minute : the USA don 't need the F-22 as it is now . The USA have some much better aircrafts to bring to the enemy than the F-22 , a Viper Blk 60 or a SH Blk2 will do more dammage to the enemy by a long way ."

Listen fanboy, the F-22 is an air superiority fighter. It doesn't have the same mission as the F-16 or SH. You seem to be forgetting that the US has the luxury of buying several specialized types to accomplish different missions rather than being forced to try to do everything with one airframe. The F-22 is the finest air superiority fighter in the world. It can also do some other missions, but its first, second, and third jobs are shooting down enemy aircraft. Again, if you didn't know this already you have no business trying to offer an opinion.

"Exactly and this is why I said that the F-22 is lacking because it hasn 't got both ."

I take it now you are just resorting to lying? What is wrong with you kid? I posted a link to a news story about the F-22's EW system and now you doubt that it exists?

"Hurray !!! AT LAST !

Leroy , I thank you . At last you unconciently acknowledge Dassault/Thales thinking when they built the Rafale and SPECTRA . Now , re-read what I said all theses years with your newly open mind !

Unfortunatly , the rest of your post is just rubbish but luckily you end up with a something interesting . I would like to know more about that so-called "best digital electronic warfare system available in any fighter in the world" thing . Is that US propaganda again or do we have something more "meaty" to chew on (link , Pdf"

Hurray? Perhaps you are missing the point completely. The Rafale is not a stealth aircraft. It isn't even close. Every single missile, bomb or fuel tank you hang under a Rafale has a RCS an order of magnitude greater(if not more) than a combat loaded F-22, and that doesn't even take into account the Rafale itself, which is not stealthy either. (By 5th generation standards...)

As for "US propaganda" ... give it up kid. If you don't want to play in the real world then nobody can make you....obviously. We get it, you are happy to believe anything that sounds good for the Rafale but you require "proof" for any technology it lacks. The US doesn't feel any need whatsoever to promote the F-22. It isn't for sale. That is why you see all the marketing pamphlets and brochures for the Rafale and not for the F-22. (not that it has helped the Rafale)

The fact remains, the F-22 has a state of the art EW system, the details of which are not available to the general public. (Nor could you make any sense of them even if they were.) Once again... if that is news to you, then you have no business trying to offer opinions on the F-22.

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leroy 12/21/2008 4:27:54 AM

"Poor talk , really . You don 't answer to a troll , you ignore it . That 's what we all do . But when I 'm here , I get threads going to hundreds of posts so why that ? Because my posts are :

1) understandable enough

2) hot

3) well founded

4) controversials

And with modesty , I have to say that it works and what you call "american bashing" sometimes is , but only because you spit on some french stuff ;-) Am I honest enough :-)"

Yeah, you are a troll... and seem to enjoy looking like a fool. You obviously get some satisfaction out of proving yourself to be an idiot. I can only guess what drives internet kids to try to start arguments about things they don't understand.

"No , no ! Rafale has the best ECM suite Worldwide and that 's a fact . I don 't have to insist ."

lol, right right kid. As I have said before... whatever helps you sleep at night. We all know you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You don't know a thing about EW systems in the first place. You don't have any access to details on any system. You just like the French one because it is on your favorite airplane.

"Do you mean right now ??? Until you back up your claims , I don 't believe you ."

So what? I already know you will refuse to believe that any aircraft has something better than Spectra. That is the whole point, you are a fanboy who isn't interested in actually learning, you just want your favorite plane to be the best.

"Wow ??! Wtf ??? If the people behind the jet are really thinking like that , they are not Americans !!! It cannot be !

Reading comprehension problems perhaps? I clearly stated it has the ability to employ active jamming. The fact remains that it is unlikely to need to do so. In a real fight the F-22 will most likely kill the opposition before the other guy realizes he is under attack. It is a lot like the F-22's maneuverability... it is the most capable dogfighter in the world today. Just because it was built to be capable of out performing any other aircraft in the sky in a turning fight doesn't mean that is how it anticipates fighting.

Naturally... you still have your favorite airplane and it is just the VERY BEST AND MOST COOL! lol

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leroy 12/21/2008 8:15:29 AM

Heh,

That tank thread was pretty amusing. I don't read most of the threads in the other areas of this site.

All I can think of is that he must be a pretty obnoxious kid in person.

He can't be bothered to learn anything about the subjects he insists on arguing about. Can't accept when he is wrong. Can't accept that he just doesn't have the required expertise or experience to offer a meaningful opinion in the first place.

Honestly I see this sort of thing as a symptom of the internet age in general. There are far too many kids growing up now who don't know how to do basic research and learn about a topic. Instead of going to a library and picking up a book on a subject, they just go to message boards or fan webpages and read what other, often equally poorly informed, kids have to say. I think that leads to a situation where they honestly don't understand what real expertise consists of.

It is made worse when you get kids like bluewings who for whatever reason just want their favorite plane or whatever to be the "best." Instead of trying to learn, they are content to just bicker. They demand that everyone prove everything to them and then refuse to accept any facts they don't like. In any real world setting such a person would be invited to leave the discussion so that those parties with an interest in carrying on at a more mature level would be free to do so.

He seems to think that lying about being an expert, and making up all kinds of interesting "facts" about the subject at hand are a substitute for actually knowing what you are talking about. Maybe when posting to other kids who are as ignorant as he is he can pass himself off as something he isn't, but anyone with even a basic knowledge of the subject matter will recognize him as a fake instantly.

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