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Subject: F-22 VS. Eurofighter
mike14    2/15/2005 2:24:35 PM
Who would win.
 
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gf0012-aust       12/17/2008 7:10:49 PM
I saw some references about Oz concerns on US Comms on some different sites so I talked about .


Let me guess, APA, Kopp, Goon, Mills, Jensen et-al.  If they are the source, then they have been repeatedly and persistently shown to be talking out of their sphincter muscles by real pilots with an excess of 6000hrs.
I am curious as to why anyone informed about the next stages of comms (and it's mapped out to 2014 the last time I attended a briefing).
I'd suggest that anyone making comment about comms for battlespace fusion etc in combat aircraft is not in a position to know because the details have not been released.  Air Forces don't advertise like commercial sellers. And IME, claims made by commercial sellers outside of their own test requirements usually spectactularly fail.  I can say that with confidence as I was involved with testing an "over achievement" Swedish comms solution last month.  It could deliver 50% of the vendors claims and they complained that we were too harsh in the testing environment.  (gee, welcome to real world testing) 






 
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gf0012-aust       12/17/2008 7:32:40 PM
Prev should read:
"I am curious as to why anyone informed about the next stages of comms (and it's mapped out to 2014 the last time I attended a briefing) would be rabbitting on about Gripen - when it's pretty clear by their request to participate in this tech development clearly impacts upon all their indigenous development. (There's a hint in there somewhere)


 
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Bluewings12       12/17/2008 10:04:21 PM
Beazz , I hear you loud and clear . I re-read what Phaid said and the problem is probably because english language is not my native language but I try my best when I 'm not in a hurry to respond ;-) (sorry)
Indeed , I misread him ( I do apologize Phaid and I mean it) .
Phaid said nothing about transmiting to legacy platforms , I acknowledge the fact .
 
""Your initial comment ref the Gripens said nothing about transmitting the data.""
 
I thought that was obvious , how do you share datas without transmiting ???
 
gf :
""Let me guess, APA, Kopp, Goon, Mills, Jensen et-al.  If they are the source, then they have been repeatedly and persistently shown to be talking out of their sphincter muscles by real pilots with an excess of 6000hrs.""
 
You know , I agree with you Gary but at least they stir the pot and it 's a good thing to do even when you 're wrong . It makes people think and they can come up with a better solution simply because you raised concerns . CQFD .
I found a stuff on the net (a mail) who made me think and do some research . I don 't have much so far but enough to raise concerns about the implementation of the latest US technology on Comms . That also goes for any potential buyer of the F-35 .
I am no-one but because of my background , I can sometimes read in between the lines .
Just between you and I , Oz seems to be in the process to start upgrading Her Comms (at least in the Air) to prepare Herself to use the F-35 at its best but the Link-16/JTIDS is the bottleneck . 
Your view on this ?
 
Cheers .
 
 

 
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Bluewings12       12/17/2008 10:54:23 PM
Quote :
""Everyone knows that the F-22 can not currently transmit data to non-F-22s""
 
No , I don 't think everybody knew it and that was my point .
Now , if we go back to the original thread question (F-22 vs Typhoon) it doesn 't really raise concerns as the F-22 fire first but will the AMRAAM hit ? 
Well ?
I 'm not that sure ...And if it doesn 't , the Typhoon might have a good chance WVR . Anyway this is not my concern , in fact I don 't give a monkey .
Now , imagine the USAF and USN up against Russia or China in the Air . The USA have all the means to win the fight with a probable good ratio because of superior training , Net warfare , superior Pilots and better experience . We 're all aware of the fact including the Russians and the Chineses .
But what the F-22 is going to do beside policing the sky by itself and act by itself within its radar range ?
And of course within its limits (weapon load and range) .
I am asking because if Europe had that kind of fighter (the F-22) , I believe that it would be more advanced on the sensor fusion and Comms sides and from a long time already . 
Basicaly , what you have (the USA) is a bird of prey acting more or less alone and who is on the verge to be shotdown with the actual technology . I am talking about multiple sorts of radars , long range IR missiles , optronics .
Fortunatly , the needed technology to shotdown that kind of fighter is coming from the West and expecialy Europe . Russia has some beautifull tricks up Her sleeve to counter the F-22 too . China hasn 't (as far as I know) .
To be honest with you , I defy a F-22 (or 4 or 8) to reach Paris alive TODAY .
 
Cheers .
 

 

 
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Bluewings12       12/17/2008 11:36:00 PM
Phaid :
""I see you've been keeping up with xav's bashing on the F-22 thread at air-defense.net.  Somehow I just knew you'd come back and troll that crap when you read it.  That whole "I won't miss strategypage" thing didn't last nearly long enough.""
 
Spot on Phaid . You 're right all along but you have a problem Phaid :
I 'm not trolling and the facts are the truth . I did my homework too ...
Secondly , I don 't give a merde about strategypage , most posters here are clueless americans checking what the US propaganda is saying (the SYSOP posts) .
Many here should learn French and check some french sites , air-defense.net is only one of many .
A bon entendeur , salut .
 
Cheers .

 
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leroy       12/18/2008 2:27:04 AM
You are a troll bluewings, and worse, an idiot.
 
You show up here, confused about something you don't understand, and then try to start a flame war. 
 
If you hold to your typical pattern, once someone takes the time to educate you... you will start making up imaginary technology  and insisting that you are some kind of expert when you clearly don't know the first thing about the subject at hand.
 
Now, getting to the point of your troll post...
 
"I am asking because if Europe had that kind of fighter (the F-22) , I believe that it would be more advanced on the sensor fusion and Comms sides and from a long time already . "
 
Right, because "Europe" is just "better." Afterall, it has France. 
 
 "Basicaly , what you have (the USA) is a bird of prey acting more or less alone"
 
Of course not, but then to an idiot I guess I can see how the real concept could be confusing. 
 
"and who is on the verge to be shotdown with the actual technology. I am talking about multiple sorts of radars , long range IR missiles , optronics ."

Uh huh... thank you for your informed opinion fanboy.  It is nice that you and your internet message board experts have it all figured out. The problem of course is that you just don't have a clue what you are trying to discuss. I am not going to waste my time correcting you because I know you too well to think it would do any good.
 
"To be honest with you , I defy a F-22 (or 4 or 8) to reach Paris alive TODAY ."
 
Sure thing kid. 
 
Don't worry, your country is still cool even though it doesn't have a 5th generation fighter.
 
 
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Phaid       12/18/2008 3:40:27 AM
Just to reiterate, yes, what I said was that the F-22 has a shared tactical picture, composed of data exchanged (transmit and received) between F-22s via IFDL and received from other platforms via Link-16.
 
The fact that the F-22 can't transmit over the non-stealthy Link-16 is not news, and it is not an oversight.  It is also not nearly as much of a disadvantage as some would make it out to be.  From an Air Force article... about Northern Edge '06:
The F-22?s capabilities were highlighted during several air-to-air engagements that included facing an opposing force at a four-to-one disadvantage.

In each circumstance the F-22 teams - paired with joint-service jets such as F/A-18 Hornets, F-15C/E Eagles, E/A-6B Prowlers and E-2C Hawkeyes - were able to soundly defeat their enemies.

?Throughout the exercise we were able to see just how effective this jet can be at integrating with multiple joint assets for a number of different missions,? Col. Tolliver said.

?The Raptor?s success here is something that should be shared among all the services, because it means our entire force has capabilities that it didn?t have just a short time ago,? he said.

The F-22?s integrated avionics, stealth and supercruise ability were just some of the advantages that played into the exercise success.

?They were able to fly in threat rings using their stealth technology, opening up doors for us,? said Capt. Mullani. ?Their ability to ensure air dominance gave us the opportunity to operate freely.?
And although a datalink would be an even faster way to get data to other platforms, it's not the only way.  Since the F-22 has the complete tactical picture, its pilot knows exactly who he needs to talk to and where they should look.  Or as one pilot put  it in this AW&ST article...:
"I could talk to an EA-6B Prowler electronic attack crew and tell them where a surface-to-air missile site was active so they would immediately know where to point their electronic warfare sensors," Tolliver says. "That decreased their targeting time line considerably."
Hardly "a bird of prey acting more or less alone".

 
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HERALD1357    Just to clarify.   12/18/2008 11:45:22 AM
For our troll's benefit , there is something new called a NODE [SARCASM] where the F-22 can transmit IFDL what it sees and then receive other platform information "translated" into its IFDL that is configured to its "language". Can an F-22 talk directly to an F-15? No. Can it talk to an F-15 through a BACN say, or any joint air operations controller aircraft configured to talk via both  legacy data link and low probability of intercept telemetry systems aircraft as an intermediary?
 
Well yes it can. It is supposed to do that, so that it, the F-22 can continue to retain its LO characteristics.
 
Herald
.   

 
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Bluewings12       12/18/2008 9:42:14 PM
Please re-read what I said :
""Be aware that I am not bashing but I am only talking about things who could be better on the F-22 .""
then :
""I 'm not a moron and I know what the F-22 is capable of , thank you .""
 
Leroy , it is not about Europe vs USA or anything like that . It is not about the F-22 vs ... , but to say what we Europeans sometimes do thing better than you Americans , note the "sometimes" . It 's not because you have a space shuttle that you are the best at everything . I know it is a crap exemple but everybody understands .
When I say that the F-22 is acting more or less alone , I  exagerate on purpose  . My point was to raise the concern that the F-22 , while its undoubtly the best A2A fighter , should be (sorry) must be capable of talking to all the lesser fighters .
Do you get it ?
Phaid is telling the story of a F-22 pilot talking to a Prowler 's crew about a SAM site . Well , we already had that back in 1941 ... Radio is nothing new , thank you .
I am talking about sensor fusion in between aircrafts ! 
What the F-22 should have done was to send to the Prowler in real time :
1) the coordinate of the target (interferrometry)
2) the bandwith used by the SAM site (checked by ECM frenquency hoping from AESA antenas)
3) the type of SAM (from the databank)
 
But the F-22 talked verbally to the Prowler 's crew about a SAM site being "somewhere there" , Bravo !
Next time , use a Rafale to talk to your Prowler , you won 't be disapointed .
 
Herald , what you 're talking about can take ages and we know it . That 's no good , or at least not good enough .
Again , we all know that the F-22 is lacking in some area and its real capabilities are still unknown . Why that ?
I clearly understand the need of "secret" , we all do . Indians and French did the same at the recent Redflag but with a very different outcome ;-) 
Nevertheles , I think that it would be extremely good for the USAF to really test the F-22 with some different rules , not over the American soil , not against US pilots and against legacy US aircrafts , but in something like the NATO Tigers meeting over Europe . So why they don 't ?
To most knowledgeable observers , the reason is simple . The F-22 is not ready because it is not a finished aircraft yet . 
This has often been the Hachilles heel of the USAF , flying an "empty shell" as long as it can fire something .
Again , I exagerate on purpose .
 
As it stands , the F-22 is used at only 60% of its real capability and you shouldn 't do that , it deserves better .
 
Cheers .

 

 
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Bluewings12       12/18/2008 10:28:00 PM
I said that the F-22 can be tracked and shot down and Leroy posted that very stupid answer :
 
""Uh huh... thank you for your informed opinion fanboy.  It is nice that you and your internet message board experts have it all figured out. The problem of course is that you just don't have a clue what you are trying to discuss. I am not going to waste my time correcting you because I know you too well to think it would do any good.""
 
Are you 14 ?..... 17 ? ...
Well , let 's say that you 're just a very stupid 20 years old kid (nobody over 20 would use such poor and kiddish language)
If you 're over 20 , you should grow up and/or ask for family advice .
 
Yes Leroy , a F-22 can be tracked and shot down and unlike you I can provide stuff . Many radars today can deal with LO or very LO aircrafts . Then , all you have to do is to uplink an IR missile to the target , better yet as you sometimes don 't need to use EM waves for the tracking as optronics and lasers can do it . It is sometimes a very cheap technology .
You should read more and check some French sites , but who cares here on strategypage ?
Do you know that we have a 150kg radar (including the power unit and the necessary PC) who can track any object within a VERY usefull range ? That radar can be moved around on a Jeep and can be set up in less than 20 minutes . It can track absolutly anything . Google hard . If you cannot fing anything , I will enlight you .
 
Cheers .
 

 
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