F-22 VS. Eurofighter

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Bluewings12 12/20/2008 11:12:50 PM

Since a lot of you are answering me , there are 3 solutions :

1) I am a decent poster

2) I am the best troll you ever met

3) you are as stupid as I am

Your choice ...

Cheers .

Quote Reply

warpig 12/21/2008 1:22:49 AM

"The F-22, even after it has expended all of its ordnance, is still a very useful asset because it can fly unchallenged into SAM envelopes."

This is what the USAF says ~and no-one else~ and without any proofs , allow me to dare to doubt .

Go ahead and doubt, who cares? Let everyone doubt, fine with me. When the time comes, they'll learn first-hand.

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The B2 has been spotted on radar over UK and over Europe and don 't tell me that is because it was emitting but because some radars can detect LO aircrafts .

You are aware that when LO aircraft are not flying real-world operational missions, they deploy radar-enhancing shapes to increase their signature, aren't you? Even if they have been detected over the UK and Europe while in total LO mode, I don't care, and the reason I don't is because we aren't going to fight the UK and Europe. Only a total a$$ talks about the ability of NATO countries to engage American aircraft as if it's a serious consideration.

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"There, it can pinpoint SAM sites and hand off targets to SEAD platforms"

What with ? (pinpointing and handing off ?)

With its ALE-94 ESM system and a simple voice call.

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"the reason the F-22 does not implement Link-16 transmission is because Link-16 transmission requires constant emissions. It is not stealthy."

There , you make more sense . Nevertheles , it 's better to use the link-16 than nothing when you want to share datas with link-16 equipped legacy fighters , at least for now . In fact , it 's an excuse Phaid .

The F-22 is just ~as I said earlier~ un unfinished aircraft .

That's at least the third time just in this thread that this has been explained to you, and it's been the same reason all along. Apparently you're new to this knowledge, but we've known it for years. It was recognized several years ago that it would be even better than the great weapon system it already is, if it can also transmit data to non-F-22 aircraft, and it will. In case this is a news flash to you, I think I can guarantee that there will be other improvements to the F-22 over the next 30 years—just like every aircraft type that has ever flown has also undergone continual improvements over their service lives.

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Let 's be honest here , just for a minute : the USA don 't need the F-22 as it is now . The USA have some much better aircrafts to bring to the enemy than the F-22 , a Viper Blk 60 or a SH Blk2 will do more dammage to the enemy by a long way .

The F-22 is the USA life insurance in the air supremacy for the next 15 years but for now , it is an unfinished aircraft to say the least .

There are no aircraft that can bring the air superiority fight to the enemy better than the F-22 can. It can already do everything it needs to do in order to be the best. That doesn't sound "unfinished" to me. Of course, there are improvements that can be added, and over the next 30 years there will be more improvements made to it.

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"An aircraft that generates a tiny radar return is simply much easier to protect via electronic warfare than one with a large return."

Hurray !!! AT LAST !

Leroy , I thank you . At last you unconciently acknowledge Dassault/Thales thinking when they built the Rafale and SPECTRA . Now , re-read what I said all theses years with your newly open mind !

What Leroy said has been the same philosophy we have been using all along with all our LO aircraft. Once again, you are confused about the difference between France's idea of EW and aerial warfare in general and America's. All you ought to need to see is that we have more SEAD aircraft than you have Rafales (probably at least three times as many). We don't have to make each of our aircraft perform all the missions each aircraft needs to benefit from during its sortie. Some missions can be performed by different aircraft, and jamming support for LO aircraft can come from off-board. Furthermore, the F-22 and F-35 certainly do or will have jamming capabilities; it just remains to be seen just how much they do or will have. Can't wait to find out? Gee, that's too bad.

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"The F-22 has a world class electronic warfare system that is absolutely second to none.""

Do you mean right now ??? Until you back up your claims , I don 't believe you .

We don't care if you do or not.

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""It is public information that its primary philosophy does not call for active jamming because such an approach is simply not necessary""

Wow ??! Wtf ??? If the people behind the jet are really thinking like that , they are not Americans !!! It cannot be !

The only other solution is the following : Leroy is talking out of his a$$ again . Why do you think the AESA radar jamming modes are working out if it is not for active jamming ??? You 're stupid Leroy ...

No, nitwit, the *primary* American LO philosphy is to remain passive and rely on an extremely small RCS to remain undetected/untracked/unengaged. It's only in the most challenging circumstances that call for additional assurance to maintain our margin of safety that we resort to jamming. When we do, because our signatures are so small already, any jamming is much more effective than it would be in support of non-stealthy aircraft.

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leroy 12/21/2008 4:08:48 AM

Bluewings, it never ceases to amaze me how someone could enjoy being made to look as stupid as you do when you try to post about military topics.

"This is what the USAF says ~and no-one else~ and without any proofs , allow me to dare to doubt . The B2 has been spotted on radar over UK and over Europe and don 't tell me that is because it was emitting but because some radars can detect LO aircrafts ."

Who gives a crap what you think? You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

As was already explained to you, stealth aircraft can intentionally increase their RCS when not flying war-time missions. That is like saying I saw an elite sniper the other day while shopping at the mall, he wasn't hard to find at all! If the aircraft isn't even trying to hide it should be no surprise that it shows up on radar.

The B-2 has a "stealth mode" that changes the way the aircraft uses its control surfaces and retracts certain other RCS generating devices within the aircraft. (such as lights) Look it up on google kid. If you didn't know this already you have no business trying to offer an opinion on stealth aircraft.(something we already knew...)

"Let 's be honest here , just for a minute : the USA don 't need the F-22 as it is now . The USA have some much better aircrafts to bring to the enemy than the F-22 , a Viper Blk 60 or a SH Blk2 will do more dammage to the enemy by a long way ."

Listen fanboy, the F-22 is an air superiority fighter. It doesn't have the same mission as the F-16 or SH. You seem to be forgetting that the US has the luxury of buying several specialized types to accomplish different missions rather than being forced to try to do everything with one airframe. The F-22 is the finest air superiority fighter in the world. It can also do some other missions, but its first, second, and third jobs are shooting down enemy aircraft. Again, if you didn't know this already you have no business trying to offer an opinion.

"Exactly and this is why I said that the F-22 is lacking because it hasn 't got both ."

I take it now you are just resorting to lying? What is wrong with you kid? I posted a link to a news story about the F-22's EW system and now you doubt that it exists?

"Hurray !!! AT LAST !

Leroy , I thank you . At last you unconciently acknowledge Dassault/Thales thinking when they built the Rafale and SPECTRA . Now , re-read what I said all theses years with your newly open mind !

Unfortunatly , the rest of your post is just rubbish but luckily you end up with a something interesting . I would like to know more about that so-called "best digital electronic warfare system available in any fighter in the world" thing . Is that US propaganda again or do we have something more "meaty" to chew on (link , Pdf"

Hurray? Perhaps you are missing the point completely. The Rafale is not a stealth aircraft. It isn't even close. Every single missile, bomb or fuel tank you hang under a Rafale has a RCS an order of magnitude greater(if not more) than a combat loaded F-22, and that doesn't even take into account the Rafale itself, which is not stealthy either. (By 5th generation standards...)

As for "US propaganda" ... give it up kid. If you don't want to play in the real world then nobody can make you....obviously. We get it, you are happy to believe anything that sounds good for the Rafale but you require "proof" for any technology it lacks. The US doesn't feel any need whatsoever to promote the F-22. It isn't for sale. That is why you see all the marketing pamphlets and brochures for the Rafale and not for the F-22. (not that it has helped the Rafale)

The fact remains, the F-22 has a state of the art EW system, the details of which are not available to the general public. (Nor could you make any sense of them even if they were.) Once again... if that is news to you, then you have no business trying to offer opinions on the F-22.

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leroy 12/21/2008 4:27:54 AM

"Poor talk , really . You don 't answer to a troll , you ignore it . That 's what we all do . But when I 'm here , I get threads going to hundreds of posts so why that ? Because my posts are :

1) understandable enough

2) hot

3) well founded

4) controversials

And with modesty , I have to say that it works and what you call "american bashing" sometimes is , but only because you spit on some french stuff ;-) Am I honest enough :-)"

Yeah, you are a troll... and seem to enjoy looking like a fool. You obviously get some satisfaction out of proving yourself to be an idiot. I can only guess what drives internet kids to try to start arguments about things they don't understand.

"No , no ! Rafale has the best ECM suite Worldwide and that 's a fact . I don 't have to insist ."

lol, right right kid. As I have said before... whatever helps you sleep at night. We all know you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You don't know a thing about EW systems in the first place. You don't have any access to details on any system. You just like the French one because it is on your favorite airplane.

"Do you mean right now ??? Until you back up your claims , I don 't believe you ."

So what? I already know you will refuse to believe that any aircraft has something better than Spectra. That is the whole point, you are a fanboy who isn't interested in actually learning, you just want your favorite plane to be the best.

"Wow ??! Wtf ??? If the people behind the jet are really thinking like that , they are not Americans !!! It cannot be !

Reading comprehension problems perhaps? I clearly stated it has the ability to employ active jamming. The fact remains that it is unlikely to need to do so. In a real fight the F-22 will most likely kill the opposition before the other guy realizes he is under attack. It is a lot like the F-22's maneuverability... it is the most capable dogfighter in the world today. Just because it was built to be capable of out performing any other aircraft in the sky in a turning fight doesn't mean that is how it anticipates fighting.

Naturally... you still have your favorite airplane and it is just the VERY BEST AND MOST COOL! lol

Quote Reply

leroy 12/21/2008 8:15:29 AM

Heh,

That tank thread was pretty amusing. I don't read most of the threads in the other areas of this site.

All I can think of is that he must be a pretty obnoxious kid in person.

He can't be bothered to learn anything about the subjects he insists on arguing about. Can't accept when he is wrong. Can't accept that he just doesn't have the required expertise or experience to offer a meaningful opinion in the first place.

Honestly I see this sort of thing as a symptom of the internet age in general. There are far too many kids growing up now who don't know how to do basic research and learn about a topic. Instead of going to a library and picking up a book on a subject, they just go to message boards or fan webpages and read what other, often equally poorly informed, kids have to say. I think that leads to a situation where they honestly don't understand what real expertise consists of.

It is made worse when you get kids like bluewings who for whatever reason just want their favorite plane or whatever to be the "best." Instead of trying to learn, they are content to just bicker. They demand that everyone prove everything to them and then refuse to accept any facts they don't like. In any real world setting such a person would be invited to leave the discussion so that those parties with an interest in carrying on at a more mature level would be free to do so.

He seems to think that lying about being an expert, and making up all kinds of interesting "facts" about the subject at hand are a substitute for actually knowing what you are talking about. Maybe when posting to other kids who are as ignorant as he is he can pass himself off as something he isn't, but anyone with even a basic knowledge of the subject matter will recognize him as a fake instantly.

Quote Reply

HERALD1357 It seems that one of my posts diappeared between yours Leroy? 12/21/2008 9:25:49 AM

Je repete

Well anyway, the tank thread where Blue Wings demonstrated his ignorance on THAT subject was this one:

Bluewings explains armor.

And as I said before, I would still like to see how computer software inside a node, requires a man pushing a button, to tell it what to do.

Herald

Quote Reply

Phaid 12/21/2008 2:08:07 PM

Since BW isn't familiar with it, the ALR-94 is the most complex piece of electronics on the aircraft, and has proven ability to identify, prioritize, geo-locate, and then target air and ground threats well before the Raptor is detected. Its use of track files and interferometry give it a geolocation capability that works both in air to air and air to ground -- is accurate enough in azimuth and elevation to allow the Raptor to target AMRAAMs passively. I would post links, but why bother, that's what Google is for.

Anyway, having this argument with a person who claims to have "done his homework" yet hasn't heard of the ALR-94 is a waste of time.

Quote Reply

leroy 12/21/2008 2:52:24 PM

"Anyway, having this argument with a person who claims to have "done his homework" yet hasn't heard of the ALR-94 is a waste of time."

Just because he didn't even know it existed doesn't mean he isn't qualified to discuss its merits. Clearly Spectra must be much much better!

Quote Reply

earlm Let's all be thankful 12/21/2008 5:11:20 PM

BW is a French Fanboy, not Russian. I think the Russian Fanboys are too intimidated to appear on the board. They are fare worse. With this thread I think we can definitely decide not to feed the animal anymore. He has a psychological complex to come in and absorb the beatings he does and then exult in it. I find some of his posts in this thread disturbing in a creepy way and feeding the troll only exacerbates whatever issue it is he has. If he can't gain the respect of the other posters he can at least get them to hate him which is at least some reaction.

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 12/21/2008 9:32:39 PM

You are all being silly ... I already said that I was born in april 1963 . I 'm 45 .

I was expecting such useless bashing and I do not care .

Phaid , I tried to dig a bit into the ALR-94 mystery . It is indeed hard to find anything on the open Net but you can still get some usefull stuff . For sure , BAE and the USAF are not saying much . I indeed read that developping an active jammer for the F-22/F-35 can be counter-productive . This is what you all said , following the general rule .

I had a long thinking and I have to say that it makes sense , but not entirely . I 'll come back on this later in this post .

It appears that the ALR-94 ECM package is a passive suite only . Its operating frequencies are from 500 to 1,000 MHz (low band passive jamming) , it has fiber opticals interfaces (great !) , it 's using RISC and DSP processors and the system is using embedded low-observable antenna apertures rather than traditional antennas (to keep the airframe stealth) . All of this sounds good , no sh*t .

The field of "view" is 360 degree (bubble style) .

I have to say that these features already make the passive ALR-94 suite an excellent piece of kit . It can precisely jam an incoming signal through precision DF , using interleaving narrow beams , that I did not know . BAE is talking about "stealth jamming" .

When I read that , I understood better why they did not follow the "active jamming" way . Clever thinking ...

Nevertheless , allow me (and others) to disagree . In itself , the ALR-94 is top notch to keep the aircraft unseen (?) to normal radars (the low band , up to 1,000 MHz) . By "unseen" , I mean that the aircraft cam jam the signals but it is up to the adverse software 's radar to understand that it has been jammed and provide the necessary datas for an ECCM attack , many radars can do that . Since the ALR-94 is only a passive suite , its jamming will be locked on (where the aircraft actually is) and passive EM (or worse) IR shots will be possible . There , the ALR-94 suite becomes useless , it cannot jam incoming missiles (stuck to low band) . This is scary in itself because it works for both SAM missiles and A2A missiles . The only defense left is to use the AN/APG-77 to try to jam the missile (if it has been implemented and if the missile is in the forward sector) .

I also found out what the accuracy of the passive ALR-94 was : 2 degrees , both in azimuth and elevation.. Not baaad for a passive system ... (SPECTRA is twice more accurate)

I also read that tha ALR-94 suite was able to "listen" to radio waves to up to 250 nm . Well , when I said that SPECTRA was able to "listen" to radio waves up to 200 nm , you called me a troll . So ?

What I wanna say is that the F-22 is lacking something like SPECTRA . We are now (almost) in 2009 , and the Jet might survive longer than any other aircraft in a busy battlefield (?) but it is far to be the panacea .

Deceptive , precise and active jamming cannot be left aside . Right now , if a F-22 is unlucky enough to be fired on with a top EM missile launched from a top notch SAM (or fighter) , the jet cannot even try to jam it ! Surely , the ALR-94 can try to jam the up-link in its end discreetly but is it precise and fast enough ? Will the end link brake with passive jamming only ?

I don 't think so and don 't count on it . We have a F-22 down .

To go back on the thread , I think that a Typhoon has its chance against a F-22 even BVR . As I said earlier the F-22 will fire first but will the AMRAAM hit ? If it doesn 't , we are BVR .

Leroy :

""it is the most capable dogfighter in the world today""

I don 't think so , it 's rubbish . We all saw how the F-22 is flying . It is heavy , big and slow . All its tricks at airshows are worthless (same crap that the Su series) . A simple Himelman from the (put the fighter name) will put the "cobra" fighter in the sh*t . Its accelaration in low mach is not better than a F-16C (ooops) . Please , don 't come back to me with thrust versus ratio as I am talking about aerodynamics and drag . The F-22 is capable of supercruise but its acceleartion from 150 knots to 350 knots in low altitude is poor to say the least . The F-22 a good dogfighter ? lol !

(Sorry , phone is ringing ? Back later)

Cheers .

Quote Reply

warpig 12/21/2008 10:53:07 PM

I don 't think so and don 't count on it . We have a F-22 down .

Leroy :

""it is the most capable dogfighter in the world today""

BW, here are some comments for you.

Many people suggest that LO treatments are not as effective at lower radar frequencies (like below 100MHz). But everyone agrees that our LO technology definitely does work at high frequencies (like above 1GHz). Air-to-air radars and radar-guided missiles all work around 10GHz, +/- 1GHz or so. While there may be some window of vulnerability (I don't know enough about the F-22 program to know for sure), I suggest you bear in mind that you're talking about engaging with air-to-air radars that likely need to be within 10miles or less in order to track the F-22, and missiles that need to be within just a mile or two or less to lock on. Furthermore, either now or in the near future, that window of vulnerability will really be only toward the side and rear of the aircraft as that's definitely the frequency range that the F-22's radar can/will be able to jam. Based on everything we've seen so far, I'm thinking that worrying about fighters getting into a firing position within several miles of the F-22's side or rear just isn't a real big vulnerability after all. The situation for SAMs is similar, as radar-guided SAMs have target tracking radars that also operate in the low GHz range, typically from at least 2GHz and up. The idea that an F-22 could be engaged by IR SAMs or any radar-homing missiles is basically a non-starter, as there are no such missiles capable of engaging F-22s at their typical operating conditions. You've been told about acceleration before, but you still repeat yourself here. What part of 70,000lbs thrust, 50,000lbs weight (which you apparently are aware of), and also very low drag do you not understand regarding acceleration? Report after report about ACM with F-15, F-16, and F-18 consistently say that about the only way to beat an F-22 in a dogfight is if the F-22 pilot is both inexperienced and also overeager, and makes a mistake.

Quote Reply

Bluewings12 12/21/2008 11:02:44 PM

Warpig , thanks for your post but I do not have time anymore to answer it right now .

I 'll do that 2moro . Good post anyway .

Cheers .

Quote Reply

HERALD1357 General infrormation. 12/21/2008 11:23:29 PM

Article.

When it comes to avionics and EW in general, I just wish the pretenders would get lost. They just don't know what they are talking about

That is not in reference to you Warpig. Your comments are mostly accurate in broad outline.

It should be obvious, by the way, that the Raptor has active jamming and spoofing already built into it. So whatever the latest ravings by our 45 year old enfant, I ignore weith the usual contempt I hold for poseurs.

Herald

Quote Reply

leroy 12/22/2008 2:13:20 AM

"You are all being silly ... I already said that I was born in april 1963 . I 'm 45 ."

If that is true, it is sad indeed. Honestly I doubt it as your behavior and level of knowledge strongly suggests you are in your teens.

"Phaid , I tried to dig a bit into the ALR-94 mystery . It is indeed hard to find anything on the open Net but you can still get some usefull stuff ."

I am going to go ahead and cut you off right there. You don't have a CLUE what you are talking about. You spout off an incredible amount of stupidity and just HOPE someone isn't around that can recognize it for what it is. Do you think it isn't obvious you are making this crap up as you go along?

Yesterday you didn't even know the ALR-94 existed and today you are going to lecture us on its merits based on what you read on the internet? lol (Refer to my post above about kids these days not understanding the difference between real research and skimming a few fan webpages.)

"It appears that the ALR-94 ECM package is a passive suite only ."

Oh really? That would be an interesting opinion if you had a clue what you were talking about...

"Its operating frequencies are from 500 to 1,000 MHz (low band passive jamming)"

Yeah, without a doubt the full and complete capabilities were released on the internet. (and again, even if they were you couldn't make sense of them.)

"it has fiber opticals interfaces (great !)"

lol... Yeah, throwing in a little techno babble always makes it seem like you just MIGHT have a clue what you are talking about right?

"it 's using RISC and DSP processors"

...and what did you think it might be using? CISC processors? An abacus? Do you even know the difference? Again, this is just more technobabble from a kid trying to play expert. Yes, the system has processors. lol

etc etc Again, you seem to think that we aren't going to recognize that you are just making a fool of yourself. You think that by rattling off several terms you saw on a stat sheet somewhere you might be mistaken for someone who knew the ALR-94 existed yesterday... Then, you follow it all up with some hilarious "assessment" that SPECTRA is naturally just better. (Shocking how I was able to predict that outcome yesterday before you even know the ALR-94 existed...isn't it?)

It isn't working bluewings, we know that you are just some fanboy that lacks even a basic grasp of the technology you are obsessed with. Skipping ahead because most of your post just isn't worth responding too.

"I don 't think so , it 's rubbish . We all saw how the F-22 is flying . It is heavy , big and slow . All its tricks at airshows are worthless (same crap that the Su series) . A simple Himelman from the (put the fighter name) will put the "cobra" fighter in the sh*t . Its accelaration in low mach is not better than a F-16C (ooops) . Please , don 't come back to me with thrust versus ratio as I am talking about aerodynamics and drag . The F-22 is capable of supercruise but its acceleartion from 150 knots to 350 knots in low altitude is poor to say the least . The F-22 a good dogfighter ? lol !"

..and this is another pefect example of why I doubt you are more than 15-16. Nobody, and here of course I mean nobody with a clue what they are talking about, questions the F-22's abilities in a dogfight. This has been addressed in numerous public reports from numerous pilots who have flown in or against the F-22. Its superior maneuverability was one of the primary reasons the YF-22 was chosen over the YF-23.

Once again you just don't like the idea that someone else's plane is better at something than your favorite airplane so you just refuse to accept reality and act as if that matters. You aren't going to chance the color of the sky by arguing with it kid.

Quote Reply

ArtyEngineer Questions 12/22/2008 2:36:21 AM

Well as this thread has done a "Lazarus" I have a few questions regarding both aircraft.

Where do they both stand with regards to current Air-to-Ground capabilities?

Are any F22 units declaring that capability, likewise any Typhoon units? I know the RAF boys have been spending a lot of time in the US Desert South West dropping things and generally having a lot of fun.

I understand that this years Green Flag was a very successfull event for the RAF where they flew in support of a whole range of missions working with a bunch of different FACS/JTACS or whatever the heck we are calling them these days!!!!!

Now I understand that AtoG is a very secondary mission for the F22 but Im sure as teh USAF fights to get more F22's they will be pushing the "Multirole" aspect of teh aircraft and pushing ahead with this aspect of development.

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