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Subject: VT, BAE to finalise JV after MoD gives go-ahead to Navy Carriers
DragonReborn    5/20/2008 2:45:52 PM
So the Carriers still looking pretty certain then? But will we have much to fly off them once their built?? h!!p://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/05/20/afx5029874.html ONDON (Thomson Financial) - VT Group Plc. and BAE Systems Plc. (other-otc: BAESF.PK - news - people ) will launch their long-awaited joint venture to combine their shipbuilding and naval support operations after the UK Ministry of Defence approved a project to build two aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy, the companies said Tuesday. The two groups said they would finalise arrangements for the venture, which has been on hold while they awaited the MoD's go-ahead for the carriers. There had been speculation that the 4 billion pound CVF carrier project, first announced last July, might fall victim to defence spending cuts. BAE and VT said they expect to sign the JV transaction documentation shortly. The agreement will then be subject to VT shareholder approval. BAE chief executive Mike Turner said: 'This is an important milestone in the development of the CVF programme and plays a major part in the long term sustainability of the UK naval sector and the transformation of our business. 'The programme will provide a strong order book and forward workload over the coming years and, most importantly will provide our armed forces with significantly enhanced capability.' In a separate statement, the MoD said it had completed all the necessary financial, commercial, and management arrangements for the project, adding that the super aircraft carriers will be the biggest and most powerful surface warships ever constructed in the United Kingdom. The new VT-BAE joint venture will be a key member of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance which will construct and assemble the new carriers at shipyards in Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Glasgow and Rosyth, said the MoD. Other members of the alliance include Bab International Group Plc. and Thales (other-otc: THLEF.PK - news - people ) UK. Bab said the contract will be worth some 600 million pounds to Bab through the duration of the programme to 2015. Thales said the contract will be worth well over 500 million euros to the group. 'We are delighted with the decision which has been taken today. We have been working on the programme since the very beginning and the design which has been processed so far is a Thales design,' said CEO Denis Ranque. VT is also awaiting a government decision on a 6 billion pound military flight training contract and last week said it and Lockheed Martin (nyse: LMT - news - people ) were expecting to reach a financial close on the project before the end of May.
 
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eldnah       5/23/2008 4:16:09 PM
My problem with the design of the CVF's is their inability to handle a state of the art AEW aircraft. Even the CdG with 2/3s the displacement of the CVFs can carry a few Hawkeyes in their AirWing.
  
 
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flamingknives       5/23/2008 4:31:45 PM
AEW is an issue, but that's the difference between STOVL and CTOL. The RN seem to favour STOVL on the basis that the sortie rate is higher and less sensitive to the weather, plus you don't rely on catapults so you don't have a single system that, should it fail, 'grounds' your whole airwing.

Once the decision to go STOVL was made I would have thought that a STOVL or at least STOL AEW fixed-wing asset would make sense. If the Russians can ski-jump Mig29s then we ought to be able to ski-jump a low-speed turboprop.
 
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Herald12345    You wanted an answer, FK?   5/23/2008 11:36:03 PM

Queen Elizabeth Class.


Falklands Lessons:


The Royal Navy learned three things:


Political:


  1. There will be situations where British interests require action at a distance where the United States will either be neutral or will be hostile. For make no mistake, Alexander Haig and Jean Kirkpatrick were HOSTILE to British intents in the South Atlantic War. It took direct presidential intervention to change the US tilt towards London. An independent naval capability Britain needs like any nation to guard her own interests.

  2. The need for a credible offensive naval strike capability to affect the policies of second or third tier powers is vital to limit the danger of overseas blackmail and war. There is no substitute for naval air-power when some twerp nation practices banditry against your nationals upon the ocean, or attempts to use a hostage blackmail gambit to force political concessions. An aircraft carrier is an option the Royal Navy would like to have if it has to mount a Cote d'Ivoire operation or another Falklands.


Military:


  1. This was the FIRST MODERN type of amphibious attack, similar to the types of island assault operations that the USN conducted that the British have ever mounted. It was something of considerable interest to the United States Navy because it was frankly the first amphibious attack in modern times post WW II that pitted two WESTERN adversaries against each other. The British performed to their excellent standards but the USN was appalled at the heavy casualties the Royal Navy sustained in trying to support the landings. The Argentine Fleet Air Arm and the Argentine Air Force were very good. The US knew this, but I'm not sure the British understood just how deadly the Argentinians could be, even with outdated US defective equipment. The French equipment was a surprise to us. Fortunately that equipment was as rare and had as great a failure rate as it did, or the Falklands would have turned out differntly..

  2. The defense of landings has to be primarily air based as the use of surface to air missile defenses and picket ships is too late to face even a second tier power's missile and aircraft threat.

  3. Curiously, the choice of launch method, the sortie rate of your fighters the Royal Navy discovered during the Falklands impacts your CAP reinforcement rates. The RN prefers to keep a small CAP aloft and reinforce it rapidly when they detect the raid inbound. The RN also wants the ability to operate fighters on the beach rapidly to provide land-based air-cover in case the carrier is corked. A STOVL aircraft fulfills this capability from ship or from shire without waiting to build a runway for a CTOL fighter. A STOVL carrier with a large enough flight deck can put up an eight flight of STOVL fighters in as short a cycle time as two minutes or less. This can be as much as twice as rapid as a CTOL carrier with old style catapults and arrestor gear.

  4. The fact that the RN is not likely to get a Hawkeye, or its RN equivalent makes the need for rapid CAP reinforcement for a late detected inbound threat vital for the RN carrier. Naval AWACs is expensive.

Economic:

  1. The cost of carrier operations burns up a navy's logistics budget like there is no tomorrow during wartime. The Invincibles burned up a surprising amount of gas, were manpower intensive, and were barely able to cover the British fleet from their cover position. Small was/is not economical when it comes to aircraft carriers.

  2. The RN discovered that it could not sustain operations without exposing extremely vulnerable logistics ships to direct air or surface attack. The fact that US carriers could fuel US destroyers during fast combat operations had to impact as a Falklands lesson on RN officers who constan

 
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Wicked Chinchilla       5/24/2008 12:40:43 AM
FK, my post about a greater contribution was about the carrier itself, not the nation as a whole.  I am fully aware that NATO has troops on the ground that do make good contributions.  I was simply saying that an ally having a carrier that is most effective at its designated mission is in the United State's best interest as well as the owning nation.  The more carriers the better, and the more effective those carriers are the better no matter which nation they belong to provided they are all on the same side.  

Its good sense to want your ally to do its very best no?
 
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neutralizer       5/24/2008 2:14:41 AM
I'd argue that the first modern amphibious assault was by UK but in 1956 not 1982.  Even if the helicopters used were exceedingly limited in their capability, it was the concept that counted.  Of course land based air support was available.  Since the landing is FI wasn't opposed apart from limited air then comparison with the Pacifc War and fortified islands are barely relevant, I'd suggest the best WW2 comparison was Madagascar.
 
My understanding of electric propulsion is that it's like T45, ie a choice of generating capabilities to deal economically with power demand and the ability to manage total power load for all purposes, not to mention being able to put the generation plant anywhere (although flues are obviously an issue) particularly to space out the plant to reduce vulnerability to battle damage.  Obviously on a carrier two islands is an advantage from this perspective.
 
Incidently it's a tad unclear what is actually being done by 'the French', Thales is what used to be Thomson-CSF, an electronics company, and never had any ship building responsibilities for the French Navy.  Their UK operation is the result of their purchasing various parts of various UK companies, which of these had naval architecture skills is unclear to me at least, however, the design of air operations is a primarily a system engineeering task not naval architecture, which is merely one input perspective to this engineering.  I'd assume that a lot of modelling and iteration has gone into it, with parameters agreed by MoD and its naval aviation experts.  What's more MoD clearly had the option of comparing twin island with single island offered by another tenderer, no doubt evaluated by their scientists, engineers and naval experts.  One has to assume that they have cut thru the BS (they've certainly done so in the past, to the chagrin of companies of several nations, on the other hand some might argue that US companies completely BSd them with Bowman).  I would certainly not assume that just because the USN has particular notions based on particular experience that the USN has arrived at an optimum carrier layout.  It's suprising what good system engineering can turn up when freed from notions of such and such has to be done this way.  It's the nature of systems.
 
I'd also say that I think the ships will be built to time, but whether the budget can be met is another matter.  However, since there isn't obviously a mass of novel tachnology involved then unless there are price blowouts from suppliers there's a reasonbale chance that the budget can be met.  The other point is that the sums involved for the ships are not that great and easily affordable by UK.  Escorts exist or being built (T45), new tanker tenders have been issued.  The one area of significant risk is outside UK control - F35.
 
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Herald12345    Neutralizer reply.   5/24/2008 3:25:45 AM
I stated my comments clearly I hope. A carrier  exists to launch service and recover aircraft. it has no other reason for being. An engineering decision that conflicts with that purpose is a poor engineering decision.

The design influence that I saw from the Thales team desugn proposal had Charles de Gaulle influence stamped all over it: from the rather top-heavy hull form to the botched take off run, to the faulty positioning of the forward island to the incompetent use of the flight deck area. INCOMPETENCE is a kind word to use to describe  the engineering choices that went into that layout.


As you can see, I have good reasons for  seeking to open  up flight deck space. It allows you to carry more planes and gives you far more aircraft work area as well as allows a doubled VTOL CAP reinforcement in emergency without fouling normal rolling takeoffs and traps.



And as I said, the so called claims of the advantages of two islands is so much utter malarkey nonsense. For good combat reasons you don't separate air operations from carrier navigation and pilotage.  You don't split ship's operations so that a commuications failure caused by physical separation interferes between a CAG and a carrier captain-EVER.

Herald

 

 





 
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Herald12345    Neutralizer   5/24/2008 4:34:07 AM
I'd argue that the first modern amphibious assault was by UK but in 1956 not 1982.  Even if the helicopters used were exceedingly limited in their capability, it was the concept that counted.  Of course land based air support was available.  Since the landing is FI wasn't opposed apart from limited air then comparison with the Pacifc War and fortified islands are barely relevant, I'd suggest the best WW2 comparison was Madagascar.

Are you trying to equate the Suez operation with something like Biak, or the Turkey Shoot? Nope, I don't see it. Suez was more like the recent Cote d"Ivoire debacle; or possibly the modern Somali debacle in that the opposition at the time was totally incompetent and not really much of a military threat, but that the political reasoning that supported those efforts and political machinations behind those operations was a complete farce.

The closest military model for the Falklands on a far more massive scale is Okinawa. There you have enemy land-based air trying to drive off a surface fleet that supports an army trying to take an island. there is no way that the Suez operation resembles such a purely NAVAL exercise. You even have the Yamato standing in for  the Belgrano in a similar eventual role.

I suppose that Madagascar counts as a successful island assault, but seriously do you think the Vichy French were anywhere near as tough as the JAPANESE or that Madagascar was anything like Tarawa or Guadalcanal? 

Herald

 
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LB    Has MOD Actually Ordered Anything   5/24/2008 4:53:23 AM
The MOD seems to have said they will be ordering the carriers but until money is actually spent it's a tad misleading.  They've been talking about ordering the carriers for years now.  In any case when the carriers actually get into service is an open question.  What aircraft they will be flying is also a rather good question.  How many decades will the RN be without a fleet defense aircraft and exactly how long will the Sea King AEW soldier on (2022 seems the earliest).  Watching the death of the RN over the past few years has really saddened some people.

On the specific design it seems rather strange to do without all the advantages of the British invented angled flight deck and waste so much space with two islands.  In fact it's bizarre.

 
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flamingknives       5/24/2008 5:57:44 AM
The MoD has ordered a fair amount of ancillary equipment, such as lifts, Electronics and steel for the carriers.
 
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flamingknives       5/24/2008 8:15:53 AM
LB, The QE class design can incorporate an angled flight deck, but when operating as a STOVL carrier, it doesn't need to. The purpose of the angled flight deck is to ensure that your landing aircraft do not interfere with your launch operations, so both can be carried out simultaneously. 

With vertical landing, you just need a long enough flight deck for landing at the back and take-off at the front.

Herald, thank you for the measured response.
The diagrams are a bit strange though. The comparison between one and two island layouts with the arrows is different when assigning take off and landing allowance. Diagram one has take off role starting from spot two from the rear while diagram two starts from spot four. Landing role is truncated in diagram two so that it does not conflict with the shortened take-off as well. The advantage of the one-island approach, AFAICT, is that it frees up the location of the front island for hardstanding, permitting more aircraft in a ready position. However, in order to get into position, they need to taxi back against the flow of aircraft.

Recent pictures puts the position of the jet deflectors at spot three on your diagrams.

ISTR that the islands are under some kind of height constraint by the bridges it must pass under, which seems a funny way to design a carrier and probably more to do with political considerations. (Jobs and therefore votes in Scotland)
 
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